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Author Topic: Marriage pacts. Do they work?
Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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So, I just made a marriage pact with someone. If both of us aren't married by the time we're 30, we're getting hitched.

We even made a few wedding plans. We'd get married in Tokyo and he'd have to propose in a creative way.

Now, I don't know much about married life or how these pacts work but I'm sure it depends on the parties involved. However, what do you guys think about marriage pacts in general? Are they good or bad?

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pfresh85
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I often wonder how often they actually come to pass. It seems like it'd be rare. I don't think I have any active marriage pacts right now. I don't think much of them one way or the other. I mean I like backup plans and all, but marriage is complicated and I wonder if the people these pacts are made with would be suited for marriage together. I guess it all depends on the person.
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Shanna
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I think its sad people think they have to get married by the time they're 30.

I'm 21 (22 next month) and it seems like everyday someone I know is getting married or engaged. It blows my mind. What's the rush?

I'd hate to make a pact, hit 30, marry the guy/girl, and then meet the love of my life a year later.

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ElJay
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Not only do they not work, you'll probably forget about it before you're 23.
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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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Well, I'd ask that "love of my life" what took him so long.

I personally want to have enough time to plan for a family. We may get married before or after the mark, it's not set on stone.

EDIT: I knew someone who had one and the mark was 28. She was 27 and had made the pact when she was 20.

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rivka
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I think they're dumb. If you think your friend would make a good spouse, then marry them. And if you don't think they're who you should marry, why would turning a certain age change that?
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erosomniac
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What ElJay said. I've know I've made dozens of these pacts--most of them "seriously," and most of them for 30--and I can't recall even a handful of them.
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ElJay
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Hussy.

[Wink]

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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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Rivka, it's not that I don't think he's the one I should marry, it's that since we're so young we don't want to make the stupid mistake of marrying at this age when we know little of the world. By the time we are 30, we'll be wiser and hopefully sure of what we're doing.
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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
What ElJay said. I've know I've made dozens of these pacts--most of them "seriously," and most of them for 30--and I can't recall even a handful of them.

I like to think that I take marriage more seriously than that.
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rivka
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If you're not ready to get married, then you're not ready to get married. That's fine.

I don't see how the pact helps with that, though.

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Kwea
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quote:
Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion:
Well, I'd ask that "love of my life" what took him so long.


...
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James Tiberius Kirk
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Huh. I have to say I was only vaguely familiar with this idea before you posted this. I know I've heard the term before, but if you'd asked me to define it I probably could not have answered.

So obviously, I don't know anyone for whom the pact "worked." Of course, there's several kinds of "not working" -- either the parties forget, or someone's been married, or they call it off.

I have to ask, what happens if one or both persons is in a relationship upon reaching the designated age?

--j_k

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porcelain girl
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i regret the pact i made. i would like to revoke it, but revoking a pact makes me feel flighty and disloyal.

marriage pacts are pretty much a bad idea. it's amazing what life can do to change your mind - and it is impossible to forecast how you will feel about life, love, and marriage in several years. especially if those several years fall between 21 and 31.

make a secret pact in your mind, allowing yourself to be honest about how you really feel about the would-be-pactee. Then, if your would-be deadline comes around and you feel the same way, present the idea.

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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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Then the wedding is off.

The thing is that both parties have to be available. If you're both single and without significant others, then a marriage takes place.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I agree with everything Rivka's said in this thread.
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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
i regret the pact i made. i would like to revoke it, but revoking a pact makes me feel flighty and disloyal.

marriage pacts are pretty much a bad idea. it's amazing what life can do to change your mind - and it is impossible to forecast how you will feel about life, love, and marriage in several years. especially if those several years fall between 21 and 31.

make a secret pact in your mind, allowing yourself to be honest about how you really feel about the would-be-pactee. Then, if your would-be deadline comes around and you feel the same way, present the idea.

I won't forget to do that either. If I don't feel the same way by the time that comes around I'll let him know. After all, I wouldn't want to be in a marriage that I am not comfortable with.
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porcelain girl
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I also think that if fertility is not your main concern, then it is a silly idea all together. otherwise why would you feel so strongly about being married at thirty no matter what?

And if fertility IS the issue, then thirty is pushing it with a woman's reproducive health on the balance.

How about 24? HA! That would have been terrible. I love my best friends, but I would have been such a tragic wife... stricken with secret longing, and those forehead lines that come from wide eyed martyrdom.

(edited for gray-mare.)

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion:
If I don't feel the same way by the time that comes around I'll let him know. After all, I wouldn't want to be in a marriage that I am not comfortable with.

That's good.

Now, what did having the pact achieve again, exactly?

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pH
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Plenty of people start families after thirty. I see no reason why thirty should be a magic family number.

-pH

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Rakeesh
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I'll be honest, when I saw the thread title, my first thought was, "That's a question?"

Edit: What I mean to say is that I've heard of marriage pacts, but thought them primarily relegated to sitcoms and movies, not something anyone would actually make and expect to be bound by decades down the road.

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porcelain girl
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I am not saying that 30 is not a reasonable age to start a family. I am saying that biologically, if a woman wants to birth children it is safer for her own health to start having them at a younger age. Having (first born) children later in life increases complications for the child and the mother. There is also an increase risk of developing cervical cancer. I have a book about this somewhere, but I think it is out on loan. Can a med. person corroborate this for me?

If you aren't particular about birthing your own babies, then, hey, go ahead; but if having that family is so important to you, then why not just marry your friend now and start planning?

Shortly after making a marriage pact with one of my best friends, I realized that I had opened up the door for him to seriously consider me as the mother to his children, forcing the issue a lot faster than I had really intended. I guess I assumed that once I was older I would care less for sparks, romance, spontaneity, sexual excitment, and mystery.

I was short-sighted, to say the least. For some reason girls tend to plan and forecast their life in numbers. It is a bad habit, but in a way inevitable. A few of my friends and I shared all of our "do this by this age" timelines and all but the youngest of us had already passed the "married by" number and were pushing the "two kids by" number. You just can't plan these things. Well, you can, but I'm not much for forcing major life events. Prodding a little bit, sure, but push too hard and it tends to blow up in your face.

Nothing stings worse than destiny shot up the nostrils.

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erosomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Edit: What I mean to say is that I've heard of marriage pacts, but thought them primarily relegated to sitcoms and movies, not something anyone would actually make and expect to be bound by decades down the road.

Exactly. I plan on taking marriage very seriously, but I'm incapable of taking a marriage pact seriously. I can't conceive of how it makes any sense to take them seriously.
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Lyrhawn
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Have you even SEEN "My Best Friend's Wedding"?
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porcelain girl
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(post 30 family initiation--->) I also feel that it is a little careless to start a family when both parents are past a certain age. It is hard to have elderly parents when you are still an adolescent.

but Abraham was old as mess, so what do I know?

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Lyrhawn
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I'd call that an exception to the rule.
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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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Yes, I have seen it. Lyrhawn. But like I said before, if he's already found someone else, then I'll let him be.

I think it's more of a fertility issue, here because I want to have someone to raise a family with at least by that time.

The age is not set in stone, either. It's just a more or less plan of what we'd like to do.


And we both know that we're young, dumb and ugly now, but in 10 years we may be smarter and more sure of what we want.

It's not like I'm signing a deal with the devil or anything.

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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
(post 30 family initiation--->) I also feel that it is a little careless to start a family when both parents are past a certain age. It is hard to have elderly parents when you are still an adolescent.

but Abraham was old as mess, so what do I know?

I don't see how it's careless. My mom did it just fine and she was 34 when I was born. A good parent is a good parent. Besides, I don't think I agree with your definition of elderly...

My mom's not even a senior citizen yet...

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
(post 30 family initiation--->) I also feel that it is a little careless to start a family when both parents are past a certain age. It is hard to have elderly parents when you are still an adolescent.

*amused* But continuing having kids past age 30 is ok? So it's ok with you if I should manage to get remarried and have more kids, despite being 33?

Just to be clear, I really am amused, not insulted. I hardly think having kids in your 30s -- or even your 40s -- means you will be "elderly" when they are teenagers.

My parents are 60 and 61, and hardly elderly! (My youngest sib is almost-21.)

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Rakeesh
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quote:
I think it's more of a fertility issue, here because I want to have someone to raise a family with at least by that time.
I've tried thinking of a less harsh way of saying this, but I'm coming up with nothing, so here goes: I believe you owe any children you might have two parents who love each other for themselves, and didn't just come together to procreate.

Seriously. Heaven knows you could adopt, but arbitrarily tying yourself to a total stranger* just for the sake of getting together to start a family seems pretty selfish to me.

*I believe that if you take even your closest friend, fast-forward the clock a decade or so, what you've got when you release the FF button is a total stranger. Sure, you might get lucky, that person might be what you could have predicted, but it's a crapshoot.

Of course, the more I think about this, the more I wonder why I'm posting this at all...the chances of this pact ever actually being enforced are essentially nil.

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Lyrhawn
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Mid-30's is okay to have kids I think. Really, any age you want them, so long as you aren't on your deathbed and concievably be alive until they get out of high school is fair game I think.

Medical issues crop up though. It's much harder for women past like 28 or 29 to have children, and it's much less safe for both the mother and the child.

But I don't think it's irresponsible.

Edit to add: Second what Rakeesh said.

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Rakeesh
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Oh, and to clarify: when I say 'owe' I'm using that term strictly in the sense that this is a situation being planned for. Sometimes, of course, through the happenings of life, families get started without this little specification of mine being met, and that doesn't mean that that family is in some way deficient. It's a strictly case-by-case basis thing.

But with a decision as gigantic and important as starting a family, I believe that the potential children are owed some genuinely good planning, not an arbitrary deadline.

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porcelain girl
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34 is not very late to have children, especially if you've had others.

45, to me, is considerably late to start.

My mom had her last child two weeks before her fortieth birthday. I think that's fine, but there is also something to be said for having older siblings to help you out where older parents might not be as active anymore.

But all that aside, I don't see much point in a "pact" that is easily brushed aside based on so many potential factors. It's not really a pact, then, is it? Just more of an possbility that's been mutually expressed?

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porcelain girl
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quote:
*amused* But continuing having kids past age 30 is ok? So it's ok with you if I should manage to get remarried and have more kids, despite being 33?
I am not expressing my thoughts on this fully or accurately. I do not think any age between 30 or 40 is too old to start a family.

Lryhawn is right, ANY age is okay, but there ARE factors and increased risks to consider as you age. First there are simply biological factors such as increased risk during childbirth to the child and the mother.

The other factor to consider is who do you have as backup?
What I mean by that is go ahead and have children at whatever age possible, but who is a support structure in your life if something goes wrong? It's an equation to take into account. Older parent + young child - second parent - older siblings + increased chance at illness - quick recovery = bad times for your progeny.

THAT being said, let me state for the record that I think families are great, and if you're committed, I don't care how old you are.
I'm 26 and have never had children. I like having the option to have children, but seeing as I don't want children outside of a marriage and am not even dating currently, I realize I could be waiting a long time. When I was fourteen I thought I would be an awesome married prima ballerina with a degree in marine biology and one kid by now. So far I'm nothing but awesome.

I was only using the number 30 because it was mentioned in the initial marriage pact post, and 30 is not technically the prime age for fertility factors.

/shrug.

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rivka
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Thanks for the clarification. [Smile] Now that I understand what you meant, I think I mostly agree with you.

BTW, you're pretty awesome. "Nothing" is not a correct modifier.

Remember, I've seen you on stage. [Big Grin]

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porcelain girl
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Thanks, Rivka. [Blushing]

I'm at this weird point in my life where I've finally split into different people - meaning Little Sara is now her own entity and Future Sara is someone I don't really know yet. I don't know why this happend but it suddenly happend some time a couple years ago. I used to think of my childhood and see it through my own mind's eye, which I know I'm still technically doing, but it actually feels like I'm watching someone else. I've become a little disconnected from the past and the future. Maybe it's an existential crisis of sorts, but not the same kind of existential crisis I have when I take a nap in the afternoon and wake up crying over every pet I've ever had. Seriously, that happend.

ANYWAY, my whole point of even bringing that up is that I don't know 30 year old Sara yet. Sara3.0 may not _want_ to be married, or just not to this particular guy, so why should I betrothe her without her consent?

My friend The Flying Dracula Hair called me SaraBeta once when he was being cheeky, but he has a point. We're all Beta and we shouldn't be buying software years in advance that may not be compatible with our as of yet unforseen upgrades.

The sentiments have value, but in reality a marriage pact is a bit of a disservice to yourself, and your friend. But I repeat that what you made doesn't even sound like a pact based on your lengthy list of variables that would result in termination.

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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
(post 30 family initiation--->) I also feel that it is a little careless to start a family when both parents are past a certain age. It is hard to have elderly parents when you are still an adolescent.

*amused* But continuing having kids past age 30 is ok? So it's ok with you if I should manage to get remarried and have more kids, despite being 33?

Just to be clear, I really am amused, not insulted. I hardly think having kids in your 30s -- or even your 40s -- means you will be "elderly" when they are teenagers.

My parents are 60 and 61, and hardly elderly! (My youngest sib is almost-21.)

My parents are 59 and 69. My mother had her first child (yours truly) at 37. [Smile]

Back to the pact thing, I don't see how a pact is a good idea even if you are concerned about a family. I mean, do you really want to marry somebody just so that you can have kids, even if there might be someone else out there who'd be better for you?

-pH

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
ANYWAY, my whole point of even bringing that up is that I don't know 30 year old Sara yet. Sara3.0 may not _want_ to be married, or just not to this particular guy, so why should I betrothe her without her consent?

Of course, one can make this argument about any lifetime commitment, including marriage. However, I agree that until and unless one is actually ready to MAKE that lifetime commitment, committing to make that commitment seems like a bad idea.
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porcelain girl
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Touché, and agreed.
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MightyCow
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There's really no good reason to have a marriage pact.

If you'd like to get married, date people until you find your spouse. It's really not a difficult process. You get to go on a lot of dates, and eventually you find someone you want to keep, who wants to keep you.

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Puppy
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I had a marriage pact in high school, and neither of us took it seriously. I mean, why would you?

Besides the children issue, I could also see someone simply not wanting to be "on the market" anymore at thirty. Dating and single life carry with them their own stresses that can wear people out. I certainly have no desire to ever return there now that I'm married.

Of course, part of that is the fact that I'm happily married, but still [Smile]

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Puppy
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Oh yeah, and serious marriage pacts are dumb, because there are only three possible outcomes when the promise comes due:

1. Both of you want to get married, at which point, why did you need the pact?

2. ONE of you wants to hold the other to the pact, which is a recipe for a stalker.

3. Neither of you even remembers the pact, at which point, why did you bother?

I think the real cause underlying most marriage pacts is the fact that one of the "friends" involved actually has a giant crush he/she can't own up to, and wants a noncommittal way to discuss marriage with the object of his/her affection.

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Euripides
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As a long-time resident of Tokyo, I can confidently say that there are better places to get married.

Seriously.

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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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Any good places in Japan? How about Okinawa? In remembrance of Karate Kid!
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Euripides
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Sure, though I wouldn't choose Okinawa personally. Depends on the venue though. There are more than enough resorts there to go around. And if you or the bridegroom get into trouble, there are well over 50,000 US servicepeople close by.

With weddings, I tend to think that a sense of romance is important, and few places in Tokyo really lend themselves to that sort of atmosphere, in my pompous opinion. But once again it depends on the venue; you could get married in the penthouse/upper floors of a nice hotel, where you can overlook the city. That's not a bad way to go.

My favourite city is Kyoto, but it's not my idea of the most romantic spot in Japan either. I would have to give this some thought. Until very recently I intended never to get married or to have children.

I'm doing that 'digression' thing again.

[ April 16, 2007, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: Euripides ]

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katharina
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I think marriage pacts are cute and fine, and it has nothing to do with what you'll be doing at 30.

They relieve a present and real anxiety. We put off marriage now for education and general maturity reasons, and I think that's completely fine, but it means that we can spend at least a chunk of our adulthood on our own.

I think what a marriage pact is really saying is "You will not be alone forever. It isn't right for us to be together, but that humongous, scary void of the future stretching out in front of us? Let's put an easy chair in it about a mile away." I think marriage pacts make it easier to trek along now feeling secure that if no other oasis of love arrives, there will at least be an easy chair to sit in. [Smile] That feeling of being a little more secure and loved has value. [Smile]

They are great. It will not be relevant when you are 30, but it is relevant now and that is worth something.

[ April 16, 2007, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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fugu13
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I think Hakodate might be nice, either on top of the mountain or in the star fort (that's now a park filled with cherry trees).
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MightyCow
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Hehe, all you younguns who think 30 is OLD are so cute. Or that if you aren't married by 30 you're an old bag and you'll never find love.

You wacky kids! Here's a nickel, go buy yourself a new car or something nice. Maybe one of them new fangled internet machines. [Big Grin]

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Dead_Horse
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One of you is going to be seriously disappointed. I'd feel pretty bad knowing that my spouse married me only because nothing better came along. "I wouldn't marry you *unless* you were the last person on earth", is not a declaration of love.
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Amanecer
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quote:
I think what a marriage pact is really saying is "You will not be alone forever. It isn't right for us to be together, but that humongous, scary void of the future stretching out in front of us? Let's put an easy chair in it about a mile away." I think marriage pacts make it easier to trek along now feeling secure that if you no other oasis of love arrives, there will at least be an easy chair to sit in. [Smile] That feeling of being a little more secure and loved has value.
I think you've got it dead on there. I also think Puppy's statement about crushes has merit. A couple of years ago, I made a marraige pact with somebody. Neither of us take it seriously, but even still, it's somewhat comforting.
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