posted
It seems as though the civil war between Hamas and Fatah is ending with a victory for Hamas. In Lebanon, a anti-Syrian lawmaker was killed today along with other and sectarian violence is on the rise. In Iran, well, among other things, the leader pledges to destroy Israel soon. In Syria, severe pressure is being put on Israel to give up the Golan Heights.
A lot of things going on :/. Things seem like dominos, poised to fall apart.
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I want to put this headline on my idea for a 'recyclable' newspaper that can be used every day, instead of only being good for one day and needing to get replaced.
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As though there's another kind. Seriously, though, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel started to take back some of the territory they withdrew from. Hamas consolidating power has got to be a little scary for them.
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posted
This was bound to happen, and I think it's best for Israel to stay out of it until a clear winner emerges. If Fatah comes out on top, there's hope for a secular, peaceful state, and really, I think it's..possible that there could be a peaceful solution with Hamas at the helm, it depends on who claims victory at the end. If the more progressive elements in Hamas claim victory when this is over, they'll have power to force change over the more extreme elements. Hamas is a LOT less uniform than many believe. They have both progressive and moderate elements and proponents.
But I think it'd be bad if Israel moved back in now. They'd be in the same situation the US is in right now, stifling a Civil War. They should let them fight it out, as callous as that sounds, bottling the two of them up would be more destructive in the long term.
The whole region is a powder keg, as it has been for years. The only difference now is that idiotic westernerns are bumbling around the desert with a box of matches.
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posted
Tell me again why there should be a Palestinian state? Might as well give the Mafia and the Yazuka and other criminal organizations their own states. They'd be better run.
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posted
I don't see this as an argument against a well run, free and clear Palestinian state.
It's certainly an argument against the status quo though.
Besides, Israel wouldn't be willing to let all Palestinians become Israeli citizens anyways, and they aren't going anywhere, which sort of eliminates all the options.
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posted
Every time I see something like this, it reminds me how lucky I am to live in America. We may have some stupid leaders, fat, ignorant populace, messed up foreign policy, and who knows what other problems, but at least we're not involved in constant war on our own land.
Makes me wonder what the heck people are thinking. Is some stretch of dirt or holy site or ethnic subgroup really that important that you want to live in a combat zone your entire life?
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posted
I think that these troubles serve as an extremely effective argument against Hamas having control over any eventual Palestinian state.
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I have to admit feeling some bitterly ironic amusement listening to the statements of many Palestinians I've heard on NPR over the past few days, speaking about the violence. The disconnect is incredible.
When Palestinians are killed in fighting by other Palestinians, it's horrible, it's tragic, it's unspeakable, it's awful, it's saddening, it makes people sick. When Israelis are killed by Palestinians, on the other hand...
Well, I won't say that Israelis aren't guilty of similar disconnects. Sure seem to be less blatant in most cases, though. ----------------
quote:Makes me wonder what the heck people are thinking. Is some stretch of dirt or holy site or ethnic subgroup really that important that you want to live in a combat zone your entire life?
It's also 'home', MightyCow. For all the idealistic statements we hear about home being where your family is (which is true), there are other definitions of that word that resonate strongly in human beings, too.
As for a holy site...well, that should be very obvious. People have always been willing to fight for and against things considered holy. I can understand disagreeing with that, but being surprised?
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posted
Nice. I bet if you had to live next door to them with them shooting rockets into your living room every day, you might reconsider.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Nice. I bet if you had to live next door to them with them shooting rockets into your living room every day, you might reconsider.
I often wonder how many Americans would change their mind about Israel if a Mexican terrorist organization started throwing rockets over the border.
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quote:Nice. I bet if you had to live next door to them with them shooting rockets into your living room every day, you might reconsider.
I said they can have their own state. I didn't say they can do whatever they want to other states with it.
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posted
Hard to believe the Palestinians can't even stay united when they're (allegedly) oppressed by a foreign state ruled by an ethnicity they hate, isn't it?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Nice. I bet if you had to live next door to them with them shooting rockets into your living room every day, you might reconsider.
I often wonder how many Americans would change their mind about Israel if a Mexican terrorist organization started throwing rockets over the border.
None. They honestly wouldn't be able to see the parallels.
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quote:Nice. I bet if you had to live next door to them with them shooting rockets into your living room every day, you might reconsider.
I said they can have their own state. I didn't say they can do whatever they want to other states with it.
And where's the evidence that they would ever behave like civilized people? We're talking about an ethnicity that's almost 60 years old, and which came into being purely as a tool with which to attack others.
We're talking about a "nation" which has never once kept an agreement. Never once chosen to put aside violence and attacks and atrocities targeted at civilians. Never once given the slightest indication that it is interested in living in peace.
Lebanon used to be a country. It was destroyed because the Palestinians couldn't even live in peace in Jordan, and when they were expelled from Jordan, they turned southern Lebanon into an armed camp. And attacked Israel until Israel had no choice but to strike back.
Individual self-identified Palestinian Arabs can be good or bad, just like anyone can be good or bad. But there has never been any "nationhood" of self-identified Palestinian Arabs that hasn't been a criminal terrorist organization that needs to be blotted out.
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quote:And where's the evidence that they would ever behave like civilized people? We're talking about an ethnicity that's almost 60 years old, and which came into being purely as a tool with which to attack others.
We're not talking about an ethnicity. We're talking about the group of people who live in a certain territory and the leaders that they have wisely or foolishly selected to govern them. Whether there is evidence they can be civilized or not, it appears Hamas is going to be governing at least Gaza.
I don't think things looks necessarily as grim as some have implied though. The status-quo, the apparent neverending cycle of violence was grim. This, on the other hand, may still turn out to be what progress looks like. Who knows how Israel will eventually react to this? Perhaps a division of two Palestinian states will allow one to be pacified in the long run. Perhaps Hamas' excessively violent tactics will work, and get Israel make whatever concessions are necessary for a long term peace. Or perhaps Hamas will fail in Gaza in the long run, and will be forced to one day recognize Israel. The future is difficult to predict, but perhaps the course to peace is winding.
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quote:And where's the evidence that they would ever behave like civilized people? We're talking about an ethnicity that's almost 60 years old, and which came into being purely as a tool with which to attack others.
We're not talking about an ethnicity. We're talking about the group of people who live in a certain territory and the leaders that they have wisely or foolishly selected to govern them. Whether there is evidence they can be civilized or not, it appears Hamas is going to be governing at least Gaza.
I don't think things looks necessarily as grim as some have implied though. The status-quo, the apparent neverending cycle of violence was grim. This, on the other hand, may still turn out to be what progress looks like. Who knows how Israel will eventually react to this? Perhaps a division of two Palestinian states will allow one to be pacified in the long run. Perhaps Hamas' excessively violent tactics will work, and get Israel make whatever concessions are necessary for a long term peace. Or perhaps Hamas will fail in Gaza in the long run, and will be forced to one day recognize Israel. The future is difficult to predict, but perhaps the course to peace is winding.
But using that line of reasoning couldn't we speculate that there is just as likely a chance that the course of World War 3 is winding?
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quote:And where's the evidence that they would ever behave like civilized people? We're talking about an ethnicity that's almost 60 years old, and which came into being purely as a tool with which to attack others.
We're not talking about an ethnicity. We're talking about the group of people who live in a certain territory and the leaders that they have wisely or foolishly selected to govern them. Whether there is evidence they can be civilized or not, it appears Hamas is going to be governing at least Gaza.
Until they splinter, or unite for a while for the purpose of attacking Israel even more.
Sounds like the only solution is for them to live elsewhere. Gee, why hasn't anyone suggested that before?
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posted
A friend and I argue about this from time to time. He says that the Palestinians vacated their property in Jerusalem prior to the six day war because they were told by Syria, Egypt, et al. that Israel was going to be "taken care of." But since the Arab states failed to... win that conflict (exterminate all Israelis?) those who vacated lost their property, and that's why they've been living in refugee camps for 40 years. In his view, Israel "stole" their land. In my view, they were accessories, or at least sympathizers, to a failed genocide. It's possible I read too much rancor in the actions of the Arab states. It's kind of difficult to find unbiased sources.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Because, y'know, diasporas are such a good thing.
Oh, please. We lived in our land for millenia, with a well defined national identity and history, distinct from anyone else. You're going to compare us being kicked out of our land with relocating one group of Arabs, with less than a century of the slightest hint of any separate ethnicity, to other Arab lands?
That's the kind of crazy propaganda that's prolonged this conflict.
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quote:Sounds like the only solution is for them to live elsewhere.
Or the Israelis could live elsewhere. That would also be a solution, no?
The trouble is that neither of the parties seems willing to live elsewhere, neither seems willing to share the land equally, and neither is willing to give control to the other.
Eventually the sides must either learn or just keep fighting forever until someone completely defeats the other. Only the Palestinians seem capable of that complete victory though, given the people of virtually all the countries of the region support them - I'm guessing Hamas realizes this and that's why they refuse to compromise moreso than any other party. But they should also realize that the West isn't going to let anyone overrun Israel, and Israel itself won't let it happen without a massive struggle. Why don't they realize that it isn't even close to worth the massive destruction it would take to win?
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posted
True. So then how do you convince a people that the thing they value so much isn't really worth what they are paying for it?
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quote:Sounds like the only solution is for them to live elsewhere.
Or the Israelis could live elsewhere. That would also be a solution, no?
I don't give half a damn for "Israelis". It's Jews who own the land, and it's Jews who I care about. Jews who identify as Israeli are Jews like any other. Israelis who are not Jews, or who don't identify as Jews... I say the hell with them.
The Land of Israel will always be ours. It was ours before the first Arab came screaming out of the Arabian Peninsula with a sword and a mania, and nothing has changed since then.
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: The trouble is that neither of the parties seems willing to live elsewhere, neither seems willing to share the land equally, and neither is willing to give control to the other.
Actually, no. The trouble is the mindset that they have to be willing to relocate. They don't, you know.
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: Eventually the sides must either learn or just keep fighting forever until someone completely defeats the other.
There's no either-or about it. One side needs to win. It's the Israeli refusal to win that's been such a big part of keeping this insane conflict alive.
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: Only the Palestinians seem capable of that complete victory though, given the people of virtually all the countries of the region support them
Some people just never learn.
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quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: True. So then how do you convince a people that the thing they value so much isn't really worth what they are paying for it?
Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are currently working on it. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
It is perhaps ironic that you could look at the price we pay for gas. Is it worth it for me to be able to go to work to support my family? Who is it that is making the gas so expensive? Is it really the crime of the people who value the thing or is it the crime of the people who are raising the price?
P.S. I did some reading on BBC and Frontline. Still pretty anti-Israel, but I think I'm understanding the 1948 part of the conflict better. They did mention how the Palestinians had in the past tried to suppress immigration of Jews to Palestine, and also how they failed to implement the 1947 offer, which gave about 1/3 of the territory to Jewish control.
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: Why don't they realize that it isn't even close to worth the massive destruction it would take to win?
Because, to them, the land is holy.
The land is not holy to the Muslims. That's more propaganda. Victory is holy to them. Supremecy is holy to them. Not land.
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posted
"There's no either-or about it. One side needs to win. It's the Israeli refusal to win that's been such a big part of keeping this insane conflict alive."
You know that struck a chord. The Palestineans definitely seem to have a stronger will in this. It is their notion of the total destruction of Israel, and the Israeli willingness to compromise that could decide final victory.
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posted
Well, techincally the dome of the rock is the 5th holiest site in their religion.
I don't agree that the Palestinian will to win is greater. The Palestinians have a will to remain forever victims.
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quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: Why don't they realize that it isn't even close to worth the massive destruction it would take to win?
Because, to them, the land is holy.
The land is not holy to the Muslims. That's more propaganda. Victory is holy to them. Supremecy is holy to them. Not land.
From the wikipedia article:
quote: Israel is home to Islam's third holiest site or shrine after those in Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia: The Haram al Sharif (Temple Mount) from which Muslims believe that Muhammad ascended to Heaven.
This belief, not only by Palestinian Muslims, but by all Muslims, raises the religious and spiritual importance to them of the Dome of the Rock and the adjacent Al-Aqsa Mosque.
Third holiest is still holy. Or am I mistaken?
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posted
Muhammed ascended into Heaven and then came back. It's not like he died there. Also, I consider wikipedia to be an inadequate information source on the Middle East conflict. Well, the 6 day war article had been locked with a disclaimer that the information in it could not be considered endorsed.
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quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: True. So then how do you convince a people that the thing they value so much isn't really worth what they are paying for it?
Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are currently working on it.
God is working on it too, I think. (Perhaps through them, even!)
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quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: True. So then how do you convince a people that the thing they value so much isn't really worth what they are paying for it?
Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are currently working on it.
God is working on it too, I think.
Ooo, 3 on 1, God is working with a handicap. Unless you believe in the trinity, of course.
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quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: True. So then how do you convince a people that the thing they value so much isn't really worth what they are paying for it?
Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris are currently working on it.
God is working on it too, I think. (Perhaps through them, even!)
lol! I had the exact same thought sans the parenthesis bit, and then I had the exact same thought including the parenthesis.
I noticed your post followed the exact same process.
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posted
Well, considering where the Dome of the Rock *is* I would say Islam thumbed their nose at Jews and Christian's own beliefs. Basically, I think they dared other religions to confront them head on. For hundreds of years it has been a symbolic declaration of war.
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posted
To be fair, Israel has in the past been quite willing to compromise on land sharing. It's taken a good 50 years for the Palestinians to come around to near the same position, but a lot has changed since then.
It's been awhile since we've had this particular discussion, it's nice to see that Lisa hasn't lost any of her ethnocentric racist stereotyping charm.
I don't see Lisa's Israel fanaticism as any different than the fanaticism that drives insurgents in Iraq when they attack US troops. And with Lisa's 'drive them into the desert' mentality, maybe it's a little bit worse. And yeah, I'm being a LITTLE hyperbolic, but only because it's fun to see Lisa come back and defend her crazy-ass positions.
posted
I think when using "ass" as an adverb, you need to have a word that couldn't apply to a literal ass or else use a hyphen. Just sayin'.
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quote:It's been awhile since we've had this particular discussion, it's nice to see that Lisa hasn't lost any of her ethnocentric racist stereotyping charm.
After reading a few of Lisa's other posts as well as hearing her recount certain key events that have happened in her life I think your judgment of her character is alittle unforgiving.
I would be most impressed if somebody almost killed you on purpose as they have been killing all Lyrhawns for the past 50 years to say nothing of the centuries of Lyrhawn related abuse, and then see you welcome them with open arms to share the same living space.
I honestly do not think Lisa wants the Palestinians to die in a war with Israel. I am CERTAIN she wishes a peaceful solution could be worked out. But honestly if the last 50 years are any indication, there is little to be excited about on the peace front. I do however think she believes that if it MUST come down to Jews or Arabs, the Jews do not have to justify their desire to preserve themselves or their claim to a land that God himself gave to them to you.
Regardless of behavior in the past, RIGHT NOW the Israeli government is trying to take steps to placate and establish peace with the Palestinians. The Palestinian government may mean well but they are all but controlling the mob that wants the Palestinians to reneged on everything they have and agreed to.
If it all goes to hell the Palestinians may opt for the route of war and form an Arab gang with their neighbors who are sympathetic. If that happens, I can only fault the Israeli's insofar as they intentionally provoke such an action or fail to defend themselves ably.
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