No no I get that that's Harry Potter, but I don't know what stinkeye is, and what that last exchange between Ioric and Aslan is supposed to mean.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: No no I get that that's Harry Potter, but I don't know what stinkeye is, and what that last exchange between Ioric and Aslan is supposed to mean.
It's just an amusing cartoon. Exaggerating reality to make a point.
But then, considering the side of the debate I'm on, it's easy to see why I'm not terribly offended. So never mind.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: From his blog, he seems to think all Christians are "loud ones".
From his past work, I doubt that is the case.
And his blog entry only mentions writers of embarrassing letters to the editor. Seems to me like that limits his criticism towards "loud ones" almost by definition. Or does Christianity have an outraged letter-writing requirement that I wasn't aware of?
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Or does Christianity have an outraged letter-writing requirement that I wasn't aware of?
You have to be on the inside to know about it...we talk about letter-writing requirements at those covered-dish suppers YOU don't get invited to.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
My reading of it is that Iorek (as a proxy atheist symbol) is saying, "See? Your people are the crazy ones."
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: My reading of it is that Iorek (as a proxy atheist symbol) is saying, "See? Your people are the crazy ones."
Ahh! That makes sense, and now of course I will experience the reduced quality of mirth that all who are slow to understand jokes receive. Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I thought it was a funny strip. I mean, I didn't see the Golden Compass, but I didn't forward the e-mails or tell anyone not to see it. I just kind of lumped it in with "The Dark is Rising" and "The Spiderwick Chronicles" as being another fantasy series trying to catch the LOTR/Harry Potter wave. I became aware of the contraversy, of course, but it wouldn't really change my mind.
I've mentioned numerous times (but will repeat in case anyone missed it) that the thing that turned me off about it was the actual word "daemon," regardless of what it was referring too. I wouldn't choose to eat at Ye Olde Towne Inn either.
But yeah, the Harry Potter in the last frame cracked me up, I guess because I used to think he was the very devil himself, so I could laugh at myself.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: [qb] My reading of it is that Iorek (as a proxy atheist symbol) is saying, "See? Your people are the crazy ones."
I thought it was "See! You can get away with it" because it's acceptable to promote Christian messages. Or whatever.
Posts: 299 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
My reading was closer to the first. That Aslan and Lorek are normally on good terms (and are both not pushing anything as just characters in books, the author might but "they" do not), but that an exasperated Lorek is blaming Aslan for the Christians that are beating up on him while Aslan is essentially say "Hey. Its not my fault, I just work here...its not like *I'm* pushing 'loud' Christianity"
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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fyi, the little boy in the comic is wrong. I realize it's just allegorical, but Aslan's death didn't save all the people of Narnia - it just saved Edmund.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
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It shows that the story of Aslan in so heavy in Christian symbolism that it is being used by that mother to teach her beliefs....which is what she was bitching about to Iorek.
And that the kids don't draw a difference between the story of Aslan and that of Jesus at times.
I lived it.
But that doesn't mean I think all Christians are like that. After all, I am one, and I liked BOTH stories. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Actually, Lewis falls into this mistake himself. In The Last Battle, one of the "bad" theologians is trying to convince his followers that Tash and Aslan are the same god, when someone says something like, "How can Tash, who feeds on the blood of his people, be the same god as Aslan, whose blood saved all of Narnia?"
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posted
It should be pointed out that most of the criticism I read of the Golden Compass movie was not about "using a movie to promote beliefs to impressionable children" but rather about doing so without being up front about it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Is that definitely a sympathetic character who says it, or another theologian?
The thing about Narnia is that there isn't any doubt from the outset that it is a Christian story. The hubbub over Dark Materials is that it is a kind of snare. Now if they had started out with the Magician's Nephew, it might be a bit more of a correllary. (based on my not having read or seen the Golden Compass etc.). [edit: or, what Dagonee said].
Though it does make the stinkeye on Harry Potter funnier, to consider whether he is a Christic literary figure or not. Clearly the woman in the strip doesn't think so.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: Is that definitely a sympathetic character who says it, or another theologian?
I should probably have not used the word "theologian" there, but if memory serves me correctly, it was the charlatan ape who was trying to gain power by proclaiming a lie (the one who claimed that the donkey in the lion skin was Aslan) who drew the comparison between Tash and Aslan, and it was one of the innocent animals present who asked the question about Aslan's blood.
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Maybe I'm just dumb, but how exactly is the movie version of narnia more upfront about it being a christian alegory, then golden compass?
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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Insofar as Aslan's sacrifice for the traitor can be seen as a Christ figure, it happens in the first movie. Though I guess I've heard of people who enjoyed the series until the Last Battle and then decided it was too allegorical. I believe that person was Jewish.
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Actually, I got dragged to Narnia when it first opened without doing any research beforehand. Perhaps due to being rather bored after finding out it was pretty much a kids movie, I never really noticed the Christianity parallel. At least I did not give it any greater attention than say the Christianity parallels in the Matrix trilogy.
It was only afterwards when I decided to do research that I found out about the whole teaching of Christianity controversy. That said, I didn't really care if it was upfront about it or not (although the synopsis of later events in latter books do give me pause) and I was not offended posthaste.
The only thing that annoys me is that I'm slightly rueful that I might have accidentally helped fund a teeny smidgen of a more overtly Christian film later.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sure, but it happens at the end of the movie... you've already paid your 10 bucks to see it.
Maybe we're using different meanings of "upfront," but I'm thinking "I Know before paying money what I am getting into," when I think about someone being upfront about something.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Maybe I'm just dumb, but how exactly is the movie version of narnia more upfront about it being a christian alegory, then golden compass?
I would expect someone who thought the Christian allegory in Narnia was not upfront to have raised awareness of the issue by publicizing it, assuming the person cared one way or the other.
Certainly Christian underpinnings of Narnia were far more widely known than the philosophical underpinnings of the Golden Compass.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
That's almost entirely because Narnia's been around longer, and had a much wider audience to start with. The atheist views of Pullman were pretty common knowledge among readers of His Dark Materials even before the movie blew the controversy into the mainstream.
In any case, I would point out that the HDM books are pretty explicit (especially in their later stages) about the allegory- at least as much as Narnia. The film version of "The Golden Compass" was toned down by the producers in an attempt to placate Christian audiences, not as an underhanded way to teach their kids about the Joys of Godlessness.
It seems like the folks behind the "Golden Compass" film were screwed no matter what they did. Make a faithful adaptation, and people would complain about the overt criticism of organized religion. Tone down the anti-religious aspects, and it turns out people complain that you're not being upfront about it.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:That's almost entirely because Narnia's been around longer, and had a much wider audience to start with. The atheist views of Pullman were pretty common knowledge among readers of His Dark Materials even before the movie blew the controversy into the mainstream.
That's true. I'm not sure how it's relevant to my point.
quote:It seems like the folks behind the "Golden Compass" film were screwed no matter what they did. Make a faithful adaptation, and people would complain about the overt criticism of organized religion. Tone down the anti-religious aspects, and it turns out people complain that you're not being upfront about it.
How does facing criticism equate to being "screwed"?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I think the point was that the Narnia film is equally as upfront about it being a Christian allegory as The Golden Compass is about being an atheist allegory, that is to say, not really upfront at all when based on the marketing materials that one typically sees before seeing a film, say film posters, the trailer, and TV commercials.
At least in my case, most of the members of our non-religious (with a healthy contingent of people who had their childhoods in Asia) group were unaware that Narnia was anything more than just another fantasy film based on a book.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Yes, but my point was that the statement the comic is criticizing wasn't actually made by the vast majority of the people who criticized the Golden Compass.
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