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There was some discussion in this thread about tankless or instantaneous or on-demand water heaters (those all are synonomous) and I thought I'd get more info from my husband and address it here, so it doesn't continue to clutter that thread. There seemed to be enough interest that a new topic is warranted.
For those that don't know, my husband is a master plumber and has owned and operated a plumbing company for about 10 years. I asked him about the tankless water heaters and got his verdict on them.
Pro - you never run out of hot water. You save some energy, though he says it's really not that much, given that once a tank water heater is full and at temperature, it takes very little energy to maintain that temp, and a tankless water heater will actually use more energy while it's operating, it's just that it doesn't operate as much as a tank water heater.
Cons - there are many. The water will be hotter if the flow is slower - so if you want really hot water, you need to have a slow fill rate. If you have a rapid fill rate, the water is not going to be as hot. And, even so you just simply cannot get the water hot enough to suit most people. He said it would never work for me, because I want my baths HOT, and there's no way the tankless system can get the water hot enough to satisfy my need to scorch myself. So, if you're fond of really hot showers, this is not the system for you.
The cost is prohibitively more than traditional tank versions, and he charges more to install them because they take longer and are more difficult to install. The cost is a huge issue when you consider that for new construction, the power company will give homeowners a new electric water heater, or the gas company will give a new gas water heater for free. So, if you're building a new house, you'd have to pass up a free water heater to put in this system. If you're replacing, it's still loads cheaper to go with a traditional tank version.
What a lot of peopl are doing, he says - are combining the two. They may install a 30 gallon tank water heater for the household and then put the instantaneous system on that line, so that there is always hot water flowing into the tank, and the tank is able to heat the water higher and maintain a volume of hot water at the desired temp. That eliminates the problem of running out of hot water, and saves energy because you only need the smaller 30 gallon tank. In our house, for example, we have two 40 gallon heaters.
Even so, he has no plans to switch us to the tankless water heaters anytime soon. He also points out this technology is not new - they've been in use in other countries for years, it's just a new American thing.
His recommendation is to pass on the systems - they're overpriced, and he says most of his customers that have put them in have called him back to install a tank heater because they've been so disappointed. If you feel you must have one, he recommends putting it in with a 30 gallon tank heater. You'll still save some energy, but you'll be happier with the result. He does point out that your water heater is by far not the biggest energy hog in your house, and there are many other ways to save energy cost thats are not nearly as expensive as a tankless water heater and that you will most likely be more satisfied with. He says he would take the money and invest in better insulation for his home, because most homes are not nearly as well insulated as they can be and that can be a huge energy saver for folks. (including us, we desperately need to re-insulate!)
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
That's good information, Belle. Thanks for that.
I will add that my brother who has been in the heating and air conditioning business for about 30 years thinks that electric heat pumps are a terrible substitute for a real furnace.
Does anyone else have any house or major appliance recommendations?
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Thanks for that Belle. I was wondering what to do. It seems our water heater is too small for our house. Could you ask your husband if I should get a second smaller tank or replace mine with a bigger one. It works fine, but with five girls/women in the house, I am always taking cold showers.
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My parents had really good flow, and they had this, and it was great. Hotter than any water heater I have ever had, and cheaper in fuel cost by far.
I think a lot of it has to do with how the line is set up, as I think my parents had a pressurized line or something. Or I guess they could have had really god flow accidentally.
But as far as the heat of the water, I know that it was so hot at first that my mom accidentally got second degree burns from the kitchen sink when they first moved in, so I don't think the water HAS to be less hot.
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Like all appliances early in their lives, the system is still being improved upon. If the demand remains for them, they'll get more efficient, cheaper, and actually live up to more of the hype.
Also, keep in mind if you're designing your own home, there are huge savings you can achieve with tankless water heaters. Say you have a toilet attached to a pool house, or the garage, or some other distant location you want hot water. You have three options: First, you can install a tank water heater at that location that will spend over 99% of its time using energy simply to maintain a temperature. Second, you can run a hot water line from the main plumbing areas of your house (this is needlessly expensive, and almost as inefficient as a dedicated water heater running 24/7). Third, you can install a tankless water heater that is on only when the fixtures are being used.
They're not a silver bullet. There are people who will be able to outstrip the supply provided by anything short of a gas boiler system (radiant heating anyone?) But they really are leagues better than they were 5 years ago. 10-15 years ago in this country, they were little better than a novelty. When (if) I ever design my own home, I will likely have a hybrid system between a solar water heater, with make up for nights and cloudy weeks provided by a tankless water heater. It's a wondeful (and young commercially) concept.
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brojack, hubby says you'll get better results with two tank heaters installed in tandem, but that most people in existing houses may not have enough room for installing a second tank. Plus, it will cost a lot more to buy a second one and then get it installed (unless you can convince a power or gas company to give you a new one, but that's hard to do in an existing structure unless you're switching from one to the other). So, you probably will be better off putting in a larger tank, unless you want to invest in a tankless system that will work with your smaller, existing tank.
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I didn't see it that way until you said something, as I assumed he was talking about family members. It is kinda funny.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Yeah, YOU think it's funny. Our four girls a pretty young still so I have a big one take a shower with a littler one, but that still leaves me with the fourth shower.
Thanks Belle. I have thought about putting a 30 gallon tank under my sink in the bathroom. Other than that, I don't really have the room. I could go much bigger in my existing space. The current heater is paired with the lower HVAC unit but there would be room for a bigger tank.
Do power companies give away heaters? I had never heard of that.
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Our last house we had a tankless system and radiant heat. It was usually fine, but in the winter we had to slow the flow to a trickle on our baths for the kids because the boiler couldn't keep up with the demand.
Our new house also has a tankless system. Here, though, either the radiant heat takes less flow, the boiler has bigger flow, or something else is going on, but baths are warm enough for the kids. Now if I was running a load of dishes at the same time, or doing laundry it might be a problem.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Brojack, in an existing house, only if you're switching. Say, you have a gas water heater, then the electric company may give you one to convince you to use an electric water heater. Vice versa if you're switching from electric to gas. If you're staying the same - then no, you'll have to pay for it.
Your biggest issue is going to be space, so if you have more space where the existing heater is, then probably upgrading to a bigger model is your best bet. Check with a plumber, and let them buy the heater for you - we get water much cheaper than the customer can buy it off the shelf, and we pass that savings on, on water heaters we only make money on the installation cost. Ask your plumber if it's cheaper to buy the heater yourself and just pay them to install it, or if you can save money going through their supplier. Be aware some plumbers will mark up on their cost - that's pretty normal, and as long as the markup isn't too high it's standard business practice. It usually still saves the customer money, because even with a markup the supplies are so much cheaper at the plumber's price.
The markup covers things like transportation costs (because the plumber may be picking up and delivering the water heater for you) and stuff like that, it's fine for there to be one - just be wary that some plumbers mark their stuff up way too high, which to me is unethical.
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I don't think it is unethical, if you agree to pay the cost they state, but it isn't good business, because anyone who wants this type of work done should get more than one quote and compare process, so the person doing that will lose business in the long run.
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quote:Thanks for that Belle. I was wondering what to do. It seems our water heater is too small for our house. Could you ask your husband if I should get a second smaller tank or replace mine with a bigger one. It works fine, but with five girls/women in the house, I am always taking cold showers.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
oh my god this post is goldPosts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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"Do power companies give away heaters? I had never heard of that."
It's well worth checking out with your local utility. Many power companies do give out substantial rebate checks to those who replace their old/inefficient water heaters with newer more efficient models. Even if they don't, they'd know if there's a local government program that will. Sometimes folks with sufficiently low household income can have their old water heater replaced&installed for free. And the installer will haul the old one away; the disposal of which can be both expensive and a major chore if the garbage pick-up service won't accept them.
Nothing to do with altruism: it's cheaper & more profitable to help people use power more efficiently than it is to generate/buy/supply extra gas and electricity to match peak-load demand. Often, same deal with buying a more efficient refrigerator, air conditioner, stove/oven, etc, and for better insulating your home.
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Sometimes there are even rebates from the electric/gas company AND from state or local government agencies. We got a city and a power company rebate when we bought an energy-efficient fridge.
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Around here tankless heaters are the norm, more than the exception, and the technology has comeo on leaps and bounds. Certainly the new heater a frined has just had installed provides scalding hot water for as long as you want.
At home we have a curious hybrid. It's an on-demand system that has a small tank (10-15 litres) which acts as a buffer. Supposedly it's more efficient, but I'm not convinced, still the water is hot and so are the central heating radiators.
Personally I would liked to have had a hot water tank so that I could pre-heat the water using solar panels...
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Our four girls a pretty young still so I have a big one take a shower with a littler one, but that still leaves me with the fourth shower.
