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This is not complete as of yet, I'ld liek to begin cranking on the background history and a few other items but this is a start.
By Blayne Bradley
Fantasy settings are created for a myriad of purposes they usually take place in a middle ages time involving mundane weapons such as spears, swords, staves and an assortment of magical weaponry and other arcane systems such as magic casting etc. However what few if any fantasy authors have attempted to is to expand their work and their histories so that the people who live in their fantasy world interact in modern times.
This is obvious a fantasy setting is of course fantasy and fantasy has been quotes as involving trees and magic while science fiction is rivets and bolts. This added to the fact that people who read fantasy and act out D & D campaigns sometimes in the expressed purpose of escaping modern life to act out fantasies and enjoy exotics happenings such as magic, sorcery and hanging out with mythical races an creatures such as elves and dragons.
But curiosity has gotten the better of me, and I would like to choose my favorite Forgotten Realms race the Drow and expand upon their histories and unique sociology and bring them into the modern era.
First I’ll begin with their government.
First of all, the Head of State aka the Drow “President” has the title of Usthiiri he/she is the head of the Executive branch of government the arbiter of state policy. He/She is however not the Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces, since while Drow by this time would have mellowed out in their innate paranoia, it would nevertheless be unacceptable to the majority of the Drow for their Usthiiri to have executive control and final military control, Drow simply would not have learned how to trust people that much unless emergencies warrant it.
Traditionally, the Drow city of Menzoberranzan was ruled by a Council of Eight Matron Mothers from the Eight most powerful Houses, why Eight? Because the books have established that the Drow consider 8 important for religious reasons, Spiders being the creatures favored by Lolth have 8 legs. In the circumstances I will soon outline while the Presidency has melded all of Drow Civilization into one cohesive political and cultural body, the Council of Eight system was a system used throughout the majority of the Drow cities and even if they’re power would have been superceded by he Usthiiri using them as a form of Politburo/Cabinet to be appointed/sacked by the will of the Usthiiri makes sense.
While we have the Executive branch settled what about the Legislative branch? The United States have a simplistic system of legislative power, Congress. Because there are no Drow or Elven words for “Congress” I’ll use the word “Council” Talthalra and transform it to Talthalra Delil Ilythiiri or “Council of the Dark Elves” composed of representatives from all of the Drow people. How would they be managed? Obviously a multiple of 8 is needed, 64 comes to mind, 128 sounds better with around 4 representatives for each “city/district”. They make the laws and ratify any laws proposed by the Usthiiri and ratify any treaties signed between the government and the foreign government. A source of contention I would like to see is between the City/District governments and the occasionally over bearing Federal government mostly with issues of “city rights” duties and responsibilities vs. the powers of the federal government.
Also the TDI can impeach the Usthiiri but only when many extraordinary circumstances occur.
The armed forces are ultimately controlled by a Council of 5 Senior General Officers (5 because the actual Lolthist influence in the Military is rather small) and they are the arbiters of military policy, finalize operations, sign promotions, finalize the budget requests to the TDI, write the final sitrep to the TDI, make appearances to the TDI on the responsibilities and the actions and answer to them of the military.
Ultimately this means that while this Council of V controls the military but under the strict supervision of the TDI who controls the budget and can sack Drow War Council seat holders at will, and belay/give “orders” per se.
However, what good is a Head of State who has no control over the military in say an emergency? If there is a war and a unified command of the military is needed under a single voice then the TDI can grant the Usthiiri Z'ressoral or “Power above all / Z’ress phor jal” essentially giving the Usthiiri during the emergency a permanent seat on the Drow War Council or Ilythiiri Thalack Talthalra and can override the decisions of the 5 Generals and give/belay orders as if he was a Senior General above the 5, and once these powers are “in” lets suppose the First Usthiiri made a loophole where for as long as with the support of the TDI he can remain in his position albeit with some limitations for the duration of the Usthiiri’s Presidency(?). This is the only way for the Executive Branch to wield military authority in time of war and/or peacetime.
The judicial branch in the history I am hoping to craft is the most interesting and controversial or at least I hope it will be.
The events and circumstances leading up the establishment of a Unified Drow federal government would’ve eventually came head to head with the related interests of the clergy. Lolth for generations if the ultimate authority on any issue, her will is “law” and the mediators of her will rule in her steed. The creation of a democratic society would’ve required Lolth to have been neutral in these events, and a divided enough Church to allow for democratic values to permeate Drow society, a clergy even slightly supportive of revolution would ensure to the people who are by and large religious be comforted that they are the ones exercising Lolth’s will. So when the revolution “wins” and the clergy cowed to ensure they don’t keep starting trouble (or as part of the peace agreement) it would be necessary to give them a part in the new government after albeit with some concessions from the Church, the perfect way is to give “former” clergy members leading positions in the Judicial system. Because the Drow society would still be by and large religious making the separation of Church and State Law would be tricky if not met with complete fury from the various Churches scattered across Dark Elven Civilization. So it would if it ever were codified would exist only in name and with only half measures to enforce it, example would be that it would be law that it is forbidden to hold a position in both the Church and a position in the government, and while this would be the case the loyalties of the Judicial members in practice would be with the Church and there would undoubtedly be many other descreptency in the relationship between Church and State that at first could not be resolved without causing great instability to the new government which would’ve been fatal in the early years.
The Judicial, Executive and Legislative branches accurately defined here are only the tip. Next I need to write 2 things the Constitution of the Ilythiirian Republic, and the Ilythiirian Manifesto of Principles. Basically something similar to the Declaration of Independence, afterwards I’ll begin writing a history of the Drow starting from the events post War of the Spider Queen.
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Blayne Bradley
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It was noted in the other thread that because of the Matriachal society it is nearly inconcievable to have a male Usthiiri, I agree it would happen in extremely rare occosions, in this case the "First" Usthiiri the one who helped organize and lead the reolution that originally sets up the government is the first Usthiiri and male, this works because for about 4 years (this is what I'm hoping to write about) there's a transitional government that is pretty much a dictatorship until he resigns as a result of the first elections basically he knows hes going to lose so he hand picks a female successor to run for Usthiiri whose popular and shares his ideals, she wins with a land slide and is able to ratify the Constitution he helped write. After this though there are no other male Usthiiri's in the near future. There would be male representitives in the "Congress" but they would probly never make up more then 1/3 of the total once the initial elections are over.
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Why are you assuming the Drow would develop into some kind of democracy? It's hardly the only possible form of government. Since they are quite isolated and effectively have no competition for resources, the efficiency of their government isn't really an issue; therefore, a sort of industrial feudalism, Mote-in-God's-Eye-style, is much more inherent. Accepting the premise of the Forgotten Realms that entire races have alignments (that is, drow being Chaotic Evil is genetic and not cultural), large, bureaucratic and stable organisations just won't come naturally to them. Heck, even Drizzt is chaotic; he would find your system incredibly boring to live under, while possibly recognising the reasonableness of it.
You are basically doing a Whig theory of history here, without any of the actual circumstances that brought it about in England, and taking away the coolness of the drow in the process. Dude, they are bad; just go with the flow, ok? Writing dystopias is a lot more fun anyway, as witness the Ynglings.
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posted
If a modern-era Drow society needed to "choose" a leader in some way, I could see them picking the winner of a month-long battle -- to the death -- on Reality TV. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Blayne Bradley
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However Drow are not chaotic evil by birth they are chaotic evil through propoganda, remember in the Drizzt book "Homeland" that he went through about 2-3 hours of hate filled propoganda? The Drow match my hypothesis that it is the society that determines your general outlook/personallity not genetics or some nature inherent. Change society you change the individual in the process. I'm not assuming anything really I'm creating a history that starts out as a sorta Proleterian Dict. of the Prol. and then transforms into a democracy after a transitionatory period because it happens to match the principles of the revolutionary leadership and in my belief deep down in Drow society as a whole is inherently democratic, they're anarchists who've been oppressed by a corrupt clergy and aristocracy and when presented a choice between a government they have no say in and a government that do have a say in they'll chose the latter.
The Drow people from what have been described are inherently distrustful of authority, paranoid of betrayel, isnt that an extreme version of the personalities of the Founding Fathers? Paranoid of the overbearing authority of the state? Distrustful of it to try to design a system that fits better with the will of the people?
A transparent government system that they can keep close watch on and every few years can with a simple action change it at will is something I am sure the average Drow once they reached the proper level of development would lov to achieve.
Drow society is not "feudal" its Urban Drow live in concentrated cities and everyone is in relative close contact with each other, and remember the Drow as they are, are a medieval society dont you think its possible that wih the onset of the industrial revolution and faster modes of communication they'll eventually through soem catalyst evolve as a civilization?
Yes the Drow as they are, are leet but my little project was gonna happen sooner or later.
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Blayne Bradley
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But yes they'll undoubtably have the coolest reality TV shows
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quote:Change society you change the individual in the process
It does not work this way in the silly fantasy land of D&D alignment and metaphysics.
Drow are a species that are inherently evil. This is the providence and doing of Lloth. They fight each other to the death in the womb; no outside influence is needed, and a vast majority of Drow would become evil even when removed from the influence of their eugenic, antipathic culture.
Of course, there's always flukes. Some aren't born evil, and are quickly weeded out by cultural processes designed to cull out those who are not fully self-serving and ruthless, strengthening the inherent nature that Lloth intended to propogate.
To change that, you need to change the patron diety of the populace (Exa: The Eilistraee drow) and magically it changes the fundamental and inherent alignments of Drow born under her worship. Still, even then, they are forced to combat the inherent tendencies of their species' nature. At any rate, what are the odds that they would be able to buck matriarchal theocracy?
I don't see the Whig system happening.
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Blayne Bradley
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Okay i think we can simplyfy this by stating that I am ignoring the whole you know thing in regards to the purely DnD aspects.
Like "Alignment" is a term for when creating a DnD character and as a quick means of describing a particular race as a whole, it has nothing to do with theory, politics, history or circumstance. So ou the window it goes, I am trying to come up with a history of what may happen if the Drow and for that matter Toril or a world similar to it was real on a planet somewhere in our galaxy.
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Well, for one thing, you'd have to factor in the reaction of the surface races to major societal transformation among the drow.
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Blayne Bradley
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Oh I have that, the equivilent of WWI and WWII, eventually leading to the Drow domination of the planet with several right wing, left wing, and theocratic coups periodically happening as time goes on and the republic being saved "in the nick of time" and reinstated the coup d'etaters overthrown and democracy reestablished to usher in a time of peace and prosperity until the government becomes complacent and another coup is organized....
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Even ignoring the alignment thing, a republic just isn't the natural development from a hierarchical, oligarchic rule by Noble Houses.
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Blayne Bradley
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I don't know about that, what about Ukraine? Replace noble hosues with Corperations, and hierarchical to authoritan and your all set.
Think about it, 1905 Russia was a hierarchical, obligarchic system ruled by the noble family, take out the Czar and put a multitude of noble familes as the power holders instead and you have a similar situation. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority of intellectuals and revolutionaries and they suceeded in over throwing the Czars.
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Yes, and they sure put in a hella democratic regime, yes?
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Blayne Bradley
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But you agree that the situations are not disimilar yes? Remember it was Stalin that put the Soviet Union on the road to a totalitarian dictatorship, in the short time span of when the civil war ended and lenin's death the CPSU was alot closer to what Lenin wanted then what happened afterwards, Kirov had once written before his death that had Stalin failed to hold onto his position as General Secretary the Politburo would have been the nucleus of power not a single man or single position.
So if the leadership doesnt succumb to perpetual tyranny then the example of the SU post Lenin can be avoided.
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Right... 13 completely unelected people who hold power by virtue of their ability to give orders to the Red Army. It's a little less of a dictatorship (in the sense of one man ruling), granted; that doesn't make it any more democratic.
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quote:democracy reestablished to usher in a time of peace and prosperity
You realize that Lolth is evil, right, and hates the surface world? If the drow conquered the surface, they would enslave its people and almost certainly genocide the other elven races. Keep in mind, too, that the drow don't even have undisputed reign over the Underdark.
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Blayne Bradley
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how many times do I have to explain this I am not sticking with the common perceptions/rules of the DnD universe to make it more compatible.
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So your next project, then, would be an alternate history of Russia, with the POD being "Stalin was actually a nice guy"?
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quote:how many times do I have to explain this I am not sticking with the common perceptions/rules of the DnD universe to make it more compatible.
Then why are you using the D&D universe at all? What's the appeal of the drow at all, if the drow in your world aren't an evil, subterranean theocratic matriarchy? Couldn't you just as easily write your story about kender, if you're going to completely ignore their history and culture?
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posted
I am not going to attack this idea because, ooo, he dares to have Drow who are not exactly like D&D have depicted them. That is not constructive criticism.
One thing you may also want to consider is the life spans, and how their lenght reflects on society. The majority of the elderly in this country are more conservative, as in most countries. Why? Because they remember the good things about the old days and want to bring them back.
Now imagine a thousand years of good old days, and a desire to keep things the way they were in our youth.
Change, growth, etc would be at an ant's pace.
How long does the president serve? 4 years or 40? How many ex-presidents would be around?
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Blayne Bradley
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8, 8 year terms. 64 years in total after that the Usthiiri would need Congressional approval to keep running for office.
Whats the best way that usually kills off generations of elderly? war. Considering the majority of conseverative Drow could still serve in the armed forces the best way to kill them off whole sale is WWI type of war, machien guns, tanks, poison gas etc.
Kender? + Intenret? Brain Explodes.
Whats this? A "firwal"? sounds dangerous I beter nto go near it... woops too late I am now downloading all these top secret files.... I better give them back eventually...
Thats an excellent point Dan though about their lifespans, its something I thought the least about but I have tried to imagine a history with around at least 12 Usthiiri's, 3000 years of history since the first overthrow of the theocracy and the establshment of a female dominated democracy to a bit past "our" modern time to the popint where they have starships capable of FTL travel.
All this thinking is a result of about 6 months of day dreaming/night dreaming and brain storming. One of my mos tinteretsing excersizes was with the help of a firend of mine try to create a Drow word for "love" that resembles our word and not just lust or sex, I've come up with a cross breed between the drow word and the High Elvish word.
After the first Usthiiri resigns in favor of a female successor all the Usthiiri's are without a single break elected females and about 2/3 of the Drow Poeple's Council are females.
Drow society form what I read is female dominated not just because of relgiious influnce but because females do tend to be comapred to Drow males stronger and far craftier schemers. Kinda like Quebecois being 80% of the Prime Ministers in Canada.
So think Drow society in modern terms as being the opposite with females dominating political life with the occasional male.
The military interesingly enough I imagine as being the junior officer corp (ensign to colonel) about 2/3 female yet the senior officer corp (general rank) tends to be 2/3 male this is what I'm thinking, I'm not entirely sure why hat is the case but I'm thinking of a reason.
Also the revolution that orignally overthrows the aristocracy doesn't nessasarily eliminate the upper class, it merely supplanted their authoirty with a political auhority dependant on a system of voting, I have so far imagined that the Baenre family still maintains an active hand in politics, why? because Drow at least when it comes to survival or power are very pragmatic, one of the Noble Houses in the WoTSQ books surrended to Baenre and became vassals to House Baenre because it meant pragmatically they could live to fight another day.
Thus facing the possibility of destruction from a successful popular massed movement that certain Houses surrender quickly inorder to secure a place in the new government to excersize influuence wen the time comes behind the scenes. Just as a good as real power but without all the responsibilities it goes with it, less showy.
For example I personally feel that at least 5 Usthiiri's should be Baenre's being the most politically apt of the ruling familes and through their actions to me show the most... nationalism? It was the Baenre's who saved Menzoberranzan from the Shadow Drow and strung together the support to do it, and I could quote/paraphrase from Grompth that "Menzoberranzan is my city damnit" that shows this early manifestation of nationalism. Given time, proper nurturing, and some key political thinkerss showing up a concept of Drow Nationalism for ALL of Drow civilization to become a single unified nation can easily come about.
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To be honest, Blayne, I think attempts to shoehorn the drow into what sounds like an otherwise interesting world-creation exercise is counter-productive. You've changed them enough that they aren't recognizable anymore; you don't gain anything by keeping the race's name.
It'd be like writing a story about the Superman of the future, an evil villain who breathes fire; besides the initial ironic shock, why bother calling him "Superman" or giving him the classic costume? It's not like drow are inherently any cooler than your typical generic fantasy race.
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Blayne Bradley
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I play probly about 24 hours a week playing computer games and you think this is counter productive?
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I'll put it another way: if you don't use the drow, and if it winds up being interesting and readable, you can sell it. If you use the drow, you can't.
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quote:I am not going to attack this idea because, ooo, he dares to have Drow who are not exactly like D&D have depicted them. That is not constructive criticism.
I've got no objection to a fantasy race (or scifi, if you prefer) that aren't like D&D depicts the drow. I do object to them then being called drow. I also feel that he's pretty much got humans with infravision, here, so why not jsut make an alternate history for our Earth? For example, you could write a bit of an AAR for the Great Game, explaining where China is and where it wants to go.
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Blayne Bradley
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someone forgetting that the Drow are my favorite fantasy race and I never ever play humans ever. The Drow to me are far more interesting to imagien they're future, humans are boring and I lack any interest to write about any other race.
Also I wrote enough alternative history in highschool (involving th rebrith of the Roman Empire starting in the 1500's) involving humaanity already.
Since pretty much all the major races walk on 2 feet have 2 arms 2 eyes, etc etc all the races are pretty humanoid to begin with I just like the dorw better then others and I have already done alot more day dreaming about this then anything else frankly i havent seen a single objection thats takes into account that if you look at the human example on Earth can you honestyly say that umans are the exact same thing or even recognizable as a society compared between 1300 and 2007?
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Blayne Bradley
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honestly KoM youve read history books, you know historical thoery you undoubtably read the Foundation Trilogy things and people change over time, the invention of the steam engine, printing press, scientific method, electricity, machine tools, assembly line, flight, internal combustion engine, physics, gunpowder, the telephone, several intevrening wars all these things change a society in ways incomprehensible to the previous generation your saying 100% that what I am suggesting isn't within the relam of plausiblity? We're dealing with a fictional rce who we know only the smallest amount of information about the books if we use them as tools to describe the inner workings of the Drow are only the tip of the iceberg of whats there to know or to explore.
Suspension of disbelief people, suspension of disbelief.
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Blayne Bradley
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and wth are the 'Whigs'? I knwo they're a political party preceedin the liberals but how is my political theory whigness?
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Thw whig theory of history is basically that the geographical and cultural conditions of the British Isles would inevitably lead to parliamentary democracy. No doubt, if Naseby had gone the other way, there would have been a Tory theory of history instead.
I don't think your scenario is implausible, considered as a constitutional setup; I just don't see what 'drowish' about it. Any random set of humans could have arrived at it. Also, at least in what you're posting you're attacking things the wrong way, setting up the constitution you want to arrive at first, and then inventing a history to fit. It feels kind of artificial. Make the history first, then see what kind of constitution you get, as I did with the Ynglings.
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quote:I lack any interest to write about any other race.
I just want to remind you that you ARE writing about another race. They're elves and they're black; that's basically where the similarities to the drow of the Forgotten Realms stops.
So why not make up your own race and do something that's truly creative, rather than derivative? As I've observed, you can actually get money if you take this approach.
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Blayne Bradley
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the correct term is Indigo or ebony I have never managed to figure out which one if the correct colour.
I like KoM's idea pen down the history first.
What I can do is break from Forgotten Realms altogether but I am keeping the Drow, I am not letting go.
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*sigh* This is what I don't get about fanfic, particularly slash. I can understand writing a new "episode" in the vein of the original; that's perfectly sensible. But why would somebody write a story where Lee Adama and Starbuck get it on? Or Ron and Harry? At some point, they're really just abusing the characters, by drawing on the vitality of the original idea before twisting it beyond recognition to fit their own inconsistent desires. Remember Truce at Bakura, or any of the early "Star Wars" comics where pretty much no attempt to retain the flavor of the original series was made?
Seriously, Blayne, why use the drow for this? Why not just write your own story of a fantasy race made good, elves in the modern era? Heck, if you wanted to keep the "abandoned our evil roots years ago," you might want to consider putting orcs in the modern era, since that's a more universal (and less twink/fanboi!) touchstone than the drow are.
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Blayne Bradley
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wow I didn't know it was possible to be unknowingly condescneding and insulting at the same time.
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I'm doing neither. I'm saying that the drow are a bad choice for this, because they're a well-defined -- and copyrighted -- race that you're changing beyond recognition, mainly because you're a drow fanboy. To be fair, I'm ALSO implying very strongly that being a drow fanboy -- especially a drow-exclusive fanboy -- is a bad thing, although I'm not elaborating on that unless you ask, because you probably would find that insulting.
You have an interesting concept to run with, here. Why not make it a profitable use of your time by using a race of your own creation, rather than changing a race you can't legally include in your fiction to an unrecognizable extent?
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Blayne Bradley
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wait wait wait Drow were invented by Gygax, 30ish years ago your telling me they're still copyrighted?
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Well, duh. Copyright runs for decades after the death of the original author. Mickey Mouse is still copyrighted.
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Blayne Bradley
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odd cuz in canada copyright afaik only lasts 20 years.
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I think in the US it's life of the author + 75 years. But that's just off the top of my head.
I've heard the theory that Disney lobbied to change the law to maintain copyright on Walt Disney's works for little longer. I don't have actual sources to back that up, though.
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Blayne Bradley
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I am not waiting 75 years to write this.
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For what it's worth, Blayne, I don't have a problem with what you're doing. I've never really been very comfortable with Evil and Good races or religions as defining, static characteristics in fantasy settings. What does that mean, really? It also says very explicitly in any D&D book that you do what you want to do to make things work in your campaign and that anything written down is just a suggestion.
So, if you want to write Drow and change things around, super. What you're proposed sounds interesting to me. The thing that I think you need to do is make a bridge between Drow as they were and Drow as they are now, backstory.
That said, they are copyrighted and publishing Drow as Drow isn't going to happen. Just write it for yourself and others for private enjoyment and leave it at that. The whole purpose of fanfic is to have fun with the source and do things that couldn't be done with the source.
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Blayne Bradley
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thank you storm I'll do that.
Morbo hehe too late.
Also Tom, tom tom, *shakes head* I'm a Communist since when do I care about making money off of my work? I wrote too books as a 8th grade english assignment around 20,000 words each and set in the MMORPG settings of Everquest.
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Blayne Bradley
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Whats annoying me the most here is that with about 40 or so posts of critizism about A) not going to be able to publish, B) questioning my use of the Drow, C) question how could in our perception of a ficitonal race and society change them ever so sliughtly as history unfolds etc etc no one has so far talked about or discussed any of the details, I worked long and hard to come up with the names I did from an incomplete dictionary.
No one has offeed any input either about my particular organization of their government structure either, is no one intriged in my idea that their executive leader shouldn't be the Cmdr in chief?
posted
Alright, you want input: I think the idea that Drows would evolve a tri-partite form of government is far-fetched. Not that their society wouldn't evolve, but why would three branches of government evolve from a matriarchal theocracy?
I think you've absorbed too much Marxist dialectics for your own good. I suppose after the quasi-American elvocracy comes the obligatory class struggle? History is not an inevitable progression, there are many forms of government. Fantasy fiction is a good venue to explore that idea-space.
Here endeth the lecture.
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Blayne Bradley
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well for one thing its the easiest form of government to write about, there's what? 500 years of roman history and 200-300 of US history? We all kow about they're inherent beenfits and problems to write interesting scenarios about, political crisis's so to speaketh.
If the Drow were real people they might evolve their own form of government over time but very few writers ever manage to come up with genuinely believable alien forms of government, so I say why bother and stick to whats more convenient to write aboot'.
Also remember Drow society is made up of dozens of cities, loyalty to ones city for a while would take precendence out of a unifed Drow nation for a while so even when the wish for a nation-state exists many of the older people would want to amke sure theyre city isnt getting screwed, it amkes sense that each city would send representitives to ensure their interests were being looked after.
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quote: Alright, you want input: I think the idea that Drows would evolve a tri-partite form of government is far-fetched. Not that their society wouldn't evolve, but why would three branches of government evolve from a matriarchal theocracy?
Maybe the same way it did from a patriarchal theocracy?
There's also the easy excuse of Lolth just appearing one day, biting the head off of the queen and saying, screw you guys, I'm off to party in another dimension. Find a new goddess!
or
Corellon appears with Lolth's head in his hand, disintegrates the current queen, says, You're free, then vanishes.
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