posted
Of course, not all crutches are pharmocological. Some people rely on accusations of racism and empty pseudo-intellectualism.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I don't mind your opinion on public schooling. I don't agree, wholly, but I think that support of public schools-- rather than abandonment of them for private schooling-- is needed.
The drug thing you've got wrong. I'd like to see some more discipline from you in supporting your argument. How have you come to your conclusion? Do you have data to support your point of view? Do you have anecdotes to support your view?
I do not believe that taking prescription drugs in order to manage depression, anxiety, or other neurological disorders disrupts any clear-minded, well-intentioned aesthetic. In short, they uplift the quality of the patient's life in quantifiable, measurable ways.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I think it's great when a small adjustment of a drug makes an otherwise disfunctional person functional. But there are a lot of people who even with drugs are still not functional. The idea that everyone can be fixed and turned into a happier, healther, more productive person through the use of pharmaceuticals is a problem. I can see where it relates to the idea that you can make a kid a genius just by spending more money on their education.
But I think the line is somewhere other than where Irami is standing.
Like I used to think it was wrong for women to have painkillers when they are giving birth (having been strongly influence by someone who lived in the days when they were mandatory.) Now I feel like it's important for mothers to be educated and have confidence in their decisions and medical care, and to find acceptance when things don't go the way they may have expected.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Irami, don't forget your rants against fat people too. We can all aspire to be pure, thin, drug-free ascetic aesthetes! Who choose to go to public schools. And who are riddled with shame. Yes we can!
edit: I added "And who are riddled with shame." in the 10 minute edit window.
quote:We can all aspire to be pure, thin, drug-free ascetic aesthetes! Who choose to go to public schools. Yes we can!
If you replace "thin" with healthier, then you have a movement I can get behind. I fully believe we should cultivate a culture of pure, healthier, drug-free ascetic aesthetes. It beats the heck out of sixteen year-old boys slipping into diabetes and seventeen year old girls on anti-depressant cocktails.
pooka,
quote:Now I feel like it's important for mothers to be educated and have confidence in their decisions and medical care, and to find acceptance when things don't go the way they may have expected.
I agree. There is also a wave of quasi-elective c-sections sweeping the land. There are a host of benefits, but the downside is that we are creating a culture that teaches women that their bodies are unable to handle childbirth. It's a ticklish issue, and there isn't a straightforward answer, but I think we are going to hear a lot about this in the next 25 years.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Way to casually dismiss the crippling difficulties of a lot of people, Irami. If you have never suffered from clinical depression or anxiety, it is extremely easy to dismiss it as no big deal or "mood swings."
A friend of mine lived most of his life remarkably healthy. Never got sick, never got sniffles, had perfect teeth. He had real problems understanding how weak you can feel when you're sick, and he tended to dismiss the sickness of others as laziness. He's changed a bit, as he got older and started having weaknesses of his own, and he became an RN and now sees firsthand what sickness can do.
Yes, many people rely too much on (and many doctors prescribe too many) quick fix pills, but please don't casually dismiss the people who actually need it. Medications for clinical depression and anxiety aren't there to help enforce some sort of societal peer pressure. They're there to give the person back a modicum of control over their own minds.
From reading your posts here and over the years, I get the feeling you live in a world with no shades of gray whatsoever, and frankly it's not one I care to visit.
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(That said, I suspect we still have a lot to learn about the complicity of drug companies to manufacture and then cure conditions, and the endless pressure to use quick and easy -- but expensive -- fixes when a sensible diet and exercise would be better.)
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I "lost" my father for several years as a teenager because of chemical imbalances due to circumstances to which Irami would have probably responded with "Buck up, old chap." And my dad had similar general attitudes about taking drugs for mental illness. There's a great story of him escaping out a third story window, because he didn't think he was nuts (and to be honest, he probably wasn't as nuts as some of the people around him). Yes, my dad actually escaped a mental hospital, movie-land style.
They eventually found some drugs that work. And I am grateful, because not only did I get my father back (not in perfect condition whatever that is, mind you, but more than adequate) but my soon-to-be-born son will have a Jaju that he can visit and love too.
So feel free to not take drugs, legally or otherwise. Just don't start throwing blanket judgments, they're the suffocation hazard of the intellect.
quote:Quite possibly. Maybe it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have mood swings, and adjust the culture according. If nothing else, it would be one less pressure on the person to fit in.
Because, after all, the only reason many bipolar people are unhappy is because of societal pressures.
That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, but then again it's early.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I think the problem was initially calling the cycling of a person with bi-polar "mood swings." That's like calling a broken leg a charley horse. One of them you can walk off. The other not so much.
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I stick with the simpler and equally accurate, "You're being an idiot, Irami." Although those others are more elegant.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I could get into this discussion on drugs and mental health, but it's possible I would get more upset than I would wish to- so I'm going to stay out of that part for the moment.
I quite liked Obama's speech though. Posts: 980 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't know how it could work, Irami. I think what you're saying is that if mentally ill people were not under threat of losing their jobs if they don't take medication (not officially, but in the sense that they have to compete with "sane" people for hiring and promotion) then maybe it wouldn't matter so much. The thing is, people don't want to work around the needs of people with problems. The ADA is supposed to prevent discrimination. Do we tell people with no legs "just use fake legs and don't tell anyone you're crippled."
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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A sophisticated culture of shame, in the way of cultural expectations of upright, responsible behavior. I don't know why this is so surprising. I think it's more dignified than the current alternative, force of law and setting freedom equal to licentiousness.
Pooka,
It's a drag, right? I don't have a problem lowering the expectations of how many widgets are supposed to be produced by a given employee. I think that means that people would have less stuff and less noise.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Quite possibly. Maybe it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have mood swings, and adjust the culture according. If nothing else, it would be one less pressure on the person to fit in.
You could switch the topic to hypertension and say that people on blood pressure medication are probably doping up, and that it would be better if we just admit that we live in a world where people have high blood pressure.
And I think I'd find it .. about as absurd.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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But shame is why people don't like going to church. (I actually don't have any problem swapping out high blood pressure for depression in that sentence -- I think beta blockers are a disaster.)
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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So what's the point in shame? Your society has to have some reflection of ideals that an aberration from would be the cause for shame.
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To remind people that there better and worse ways to live, and we expect you to think carefully and choose the better.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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But who chooses what's better and what's worse? I guess I should say, I believe that East Asians seem (to me) to have a very honor oriented ethic in their culture. But it comes at a price. I'm not really sure which parts of the culture are a necessary part of the price -- the sexism, for instance. And we're pretty racist as a group.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:But who chooses what's better and what's worse?
The answer emerges in conversation between the individual and the culture's mores. Then the individual summons his/her courage and goes forth, taking the lumps that come along.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:But who chooses what's better and what's worse?
The answer emerges in conversation between the individual and the culture's mores. Then the individual summons his/her courage and goes forth, taking the lumps that come along.
Ideally. In reality, it emerges based on the tolerances and predilections of those with the most societal leverage.
quote:A sophisticated culture of shame, in the way of cultural expectations of upright, responsible behavior.
And this is the problem with pseudo-intellectual reformers. The world doesn't work that way. People don't work that way. You'd know that if you had anything to back up what you are saying besides your high opinion of yourself.
You haven't taken the time to learn about the issues you are talking about. It is ignorant, sneering people like you who make it difficult for people who have actual courage, who are actually out there doing things, to accomplish things.
You wield your ignorance like a weapon (You like weapons, which is probably why it ultimately comes down to destruction, not building) but the peopel you're hurting aren't the ones you seem to think.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:It is ignorant, sneering people like you who make it difficult for people who have actual courage, who are actually out there doing things, to accomplish things.
You wield your ignorance like a weapon (You like weapons, which is probably why it ultimately comes down to destruction, not building) but the peopel you're hurting aren't the ones you seem to think.
Please find a more civil way of discussing this topic.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Bipolar people on medication aren't 'doping up'. He's being very insulting. We've even got some bipolar people around here on Hatrack, so it's not 'OK' in the sense that is often bandied about in forums that he's not talking about anyone here.
And anyway, Irami makes a habit more than just about anyone else around here of preaching about how the world really works. He is ignorant, he is sneering, and he actually does like using a very 'weaponized' approach to social issues, i.e. shame.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Not really. Irami doesn't change his mind about anything, at least not that I've seen on Hatrack. But his rhetoric can be pretty seductive, or at least well phrased. I think it's important to reject it, as someone who has bought into (for myself, at least, in the past) the foolish and self-destructive notion that the best way to overcome mental and emotional problems is just to gut your way through it, overcoming by sheer force of will.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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That's not the only other option (for the types of problems I have had, not necessarily for any kind of depression.) My depression dissipated as I worked a 12 step program for something else. I have no idea whether trying to work 12 steps directly on depression would work, though.
Anyway, I doubt that surrendering my problems to a higher power would be more acceptable in Irami's paradigm than taking a pill -- Opiate of the people and all that.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Irami, I'm not trying to tell you how the world works. I don't know that. I'm just saying you are full of crap.
It doesn't take anywhere near knowing how things work to see how empty your statements are. You like to talk about courage and character, but I've honestly not seen much of either from you in your entire time here.
If you had them, you'd learn about the things you talk about from somewhere other than the Univeristy of What I Want to Believe. You'd stop using racism and other excuses to explain why people don't agree with your image of yourself as brilliant philosopher king. You wouldn't be so afraid of Barack Obama becoming President.
You haven't grown from the perosn who would make up nice-sounding emtymologies for words, get caught on it, but then still unashamedly hound and insult someone else for not knowing where a word came from. If you don't, you're going to achieve little more than a whole lot of justifications for why you haven't achieved anything.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Anyway, I doubt that surrendering my problems to a higher power would be more acceptable in Irami's paradigm than taking a pill -- Opiate of the people and all that.
As long as you aren't doing it for a bribe, but because you think it's the right thing to do, it sounds good to me. I don't have a problem with religion. If you believe in Jesus, believe in Jesus. I do take issue with those people who believe that the answer to social problems is to get people to go to church.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Because, after all, the only reason many bipolar people are unhappy is because of societal pressures.
That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, but then again it's early.
No kidding. Yes, sometimes society's reactions don't help, but severe mental illness can be hell even with all the support in the world.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: I do take issue with those people who believe that the answer to social problems is to get people to go to church.
Just so we're clear, I never put forth "church" as the solution to social ills. I was saying that the cultivation of shame sounded kind of church-like.
It's a sticky question for me, since I'm certain many people here can think of quotes in which people in my church have said that the gospel is the solution for society's ills. I'm not really sure how to describe my thoughts on that. I believe "the gospel" can bring about certain social benefits, but the church is merely the body of Christ and not the gospel entirely.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:We can all aspire to be pure, thin, drug-free ascetic aesthetes! Who choose to go to public schools. Yes we can!
If you replace "thin" with healthier, then you have a movement I can get behind. I fully believe we should cultivate a culture of pure, healthier, drug-free ascetic aesthetes. It beats the heck out of sixteen year-old boys slipping into diabetes and seventeen year old girls on anti-depressant cocktails.
I put thin in there because of your blanket condemnations of fat people as moral failures. And now you're doing the same thing with anyone who takes psychotropic drugs.
You're forgetting something: people don't want to be ascetic aesthetes.
This is really a full-blown case of projection of yourself onto an idealized (Iramized) society, to a cartoonish degree. I diagnose clinical narcissism, take a healthy dose of shame to cure your shamelessness and call me when it's morning in America.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Just so we're clear, I never put forth "church" as the solution to social ills.
Don't sweat it. I wasn't addressing you. There is a too influential segment of blacks who believe that the answer is for parents to take their children to church. It's not a segment I support. ___
Morbo,
quote: You're forgetting something: people don't want to be ascetic aesthetes.
People don't want to do a lot of things, including read to their children.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:One black leader who was capable of getting very angry indeed is the one now being invoked against Wright. His name was Martin Luther King Jr.
An important book on King's rhetoric by Barnard College professor Jonathan Rieder, due out next month, offers a more complex view of King than the sanitized version that is so popular, especially among conservative commentators. In "The Word of the Lord Is Upon Me," Rieder -- an admirer of King -- notes that the civil rights icon was "not just a crossover artist but a code switcher who switched in and out of idioms as he moved between black and white audiences."
Listen to what King said about the Vietnam War at his own Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta on Feb. 4, 1968: "God didn't call America to engage in a senseless, unjust war. . . . And we are criminals in that war. We've committed more war crimes almost than any nation in the world, and I'm going to continue to say it. And we won't stop it because of our pride and our arrogance as a nation. But God has a way of even putting nations in their place." King then predicted this response from the Almighty: "And if you don't stop your reckless course, I'll rise up and break the backbone of your power."
As Dionne points out in his column, there was no YouTube back then - a very good thing for both King himself and the civil rights movement as a whole.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Much of white America is unfamiliar with the milieu of the black church. When clips from Wright's sermons began circulating, many whites heard divisive, angry, unpatriotic pronouncements on race, class and country. Many blacks, on the other hand, heard something more familiar: righteous anger about oppression and deliberate hyperbole in laying blame, which are common in sermons delivered in black churches every Sunday. The Rev. Terri Owens, dean of students at the University of Chicago Divinity School, says the black church tradition has its roots in the era of slavery, when African Americans held services under trees, far from their white masters. "Churches have always been the place where black people could speak freely," she says. "They were the only institutions they could own and run by themselves."
quote:As Dionne points out in his column, there was no YouTube back then - a very good thing for both King himself and the civil rights movement as a whole.
But perhaps a bad thing for the anti-war movement.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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"Much of white America is unfamiliar with the milieu of the black church. When clips from Wright's sermons began circulating, many whites heard divisive, angry, unpatriotic pronouncements on race, class and country. Many blacks, on the other hand, heard something more familiar: righteous anger about oppression and DELIBERATE HYPERBOLE in laying blame, which are common in sermons delivered in black churches every Sunday."
Yep, and anybody who has read enough black literature (I'm thinking of Toni Morrison, I'm sure there are others) knows this already, white, black, or whatever. This preacher's rage and invective are pretty garden-variety. I'm a little surprised more Hatrackers haven't run across this. I'd also be willing to bet that white people with evangelical backgrounds probably don't find the intensity as shocking as those whites without. Preachers...preach. Good or bad, wrong or right, you're going to find some intensity and some strong opinions in pulpits and religious literature in all major religions.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:But who chooses what's better and what's worse?
The answer emerges in conversation between the individual and the culture's mores. Then the individual summons his/her courage and goes forth, taking the lumps that come along.
NOTE: Does not work for all individuals, no matter how wrong they think society is.
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