Malkin's allegations against Dunkin Donuts are totally absurd. It's sad (and telling) that enough people agreed with her that they were able to threaten a boycott. It's also sad that Dunkin Donuts had to give in to the demands of a group of racists but it's understandable. Taking a stand against the allegations would only have given Malkin and Co. a media spotlight that they certainly don't deserve.
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posted
Yeah, but even the loudest of paisleys (and that black and white is far from loud) shouldn't be enough to get a commercial kicked off teh interweb.
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posted
Around here, in the Basque country - a region sadly recognised more for terrorism rather than its natural beauty or excellent cuisine - the 'palastina' or keffiya is commonly associated with the 'ezker abertzaleak' or the seperatist left (the guys closely linked to ETA).
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For a little context: the keffiyah as a fashion accessory has quite a history, including many cute young female celebrities wearing it. It became fashionable in the mid-80's, and was originally a show of solidarity with Palestinians, particularly the most radical elements (read terrorists). I once got a forward showing various young cute female celebrities wearing the keffiyah (IIRC, Charlize Theron, Kristen Dunst, a couple others). So there's some prior likelihood that fashionable cute young female celebrities are going to wrap themselves in keffiyah.
It's not clear to me from the picture that it's not a keffiyah. Personally, I wouldn't have batted an eye at the advertisment, but I think its far from ridiculous that others took offense.
If it had been a keffiyah, rather than a black-and-white paisley scarf, would it have been totally absurd?
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: If it was draped over her head in the shape of Israel, you might have an argument.
If it was a keffiyah draped over her shoulders, ala the moddish way for pro-Palestinian western women to wear it? Chic Western women have, for 20 years, worn accessories essentially indistinguishable (to me) to what Rachel Ray is wearing as a show of support for the PLO and Fatah. While I wouldn't have made the connection, I don't think it's absurd that others did.
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posted
It's not even a particularly attractive scarf.
Anyway. Krispy Kreme donuts wallop Dunkin Donuts. Not only do they taste better, they don't resort to fear-mongering to advertise their products.
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I wouldn't have made the connection, and I think other than worn on the head, it's stupid. Also, I don't think women wear it on the head.
I also think it is racist because she's mediterrenean looking. I don't think a blonde woman in that scarf would have drawn anyone's ire. But I haven't heard the reports of Dunst or Theron wearing it. Blah.
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Have none of you seen women wearing these? I mean, I walked through NYC awhile ago and I spotted several. Urban Outfitters was selling them as an anti-war symbol (until right-wing nut jobs got them to stop). Here's an Arab-American blog complaining about the fashion trend.
Perhaps we're far enough removed from suicide bombings that wearing a kaffiyah can be seen as a minor rebellious fashion statement.
Here's another whatif: there's an iconic picture of Che Guevera that's been emblazoned on posters and t-shirts. Recently, I've seen funny knock-offs where Che's face is replaced by someone else's, but the motif still looks the same. It's funny. But if someone had worn one in an advertisment, I don't think it would have been wrong for someone to find it offensive, particularly if they were ideologically opposed to the Cuban revolution.
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quote:Urban Outfitters was selling them as an anti-war symbol (until right-wing nut jobs got them to stop).
That's interesting. I thought the anti-war position was that Iraq didn't have anything to do with the Palestinian situation.
A bit of absurdity from the wikipedia article:
quote:This symbol of Palestinian identity is now largely imported from China, in 2008 Yasser Hirbawi who for five decades had been the only Palestinian manufacturer of keffiyehs told Reuters that "Two years ago I had to close down my factory because I couldn't compete with Chinese-made Hattas (keffiyehs) that sell for 40 percent less." [1]
I mean absurd in the literary sense, and not as "stupidity".
posted
Senoj: yep, it would still be absurd. The keffiyah is worn by huge numbers of people in that part of the world, from Muslims to Jews to Christians. There's nothing 'terrorist' about it.
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quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: Perhaps we're far enough removed from suicide bombings that wearing a kaffiyah can be seen as a minor rebellious fashion statement.
So, who can wear the kaffiyeh without these "terrorist overtones?"
We're not talking about a picture of someone's face, here, we're talking about an extremely common garment from a particular part of the world. That it has come to be seen in some parts of the West in a certain light is hardly the fault of the garment or of those who wear it in their day-to-day lives.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: I mean absurd in the literary sense, and not as "stupidity".
Here's some more if you're into that:
quote: Police in southern China have discovered a factory manufacturing Free Tibet flags, media reports say. The factory in Guangdong had been completing overseas orders for the flag of the Tibetan government-in-exile. Workers said they thought they were just making colourful flags and did not realise their meaning. But then some of them saw TV images of protesters holding the emblem and they alerted the authorities, according to Hong Kong's Ming Pao newspaper.
Tibet independence
The factory owner reportedly told police the emblems had been ordered from outside China, and he did not know that they stood for an independent Tibet. Workers who had grown suspicious checked the meaning of the flag by going online. Thousands of flags had already been packed for shipping. Police believe that some may already have been sent overseas, and could appear in Hong Kong during the Olympic torch relay there this week.
posted
The complaints about this ad are both racist and ridiculous. It's as if someone lifted an article out of The Onion....
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But the issue seems to me that in this particular trend in this part of the world, it is purposefully representative of pro-Palestinian (or, more recently, anti-Iraq war, which I agree is incoherent) sentiment.
I don't see a Palestinian farmer wearing a kaffiyah as supportive of intifada; its part of his culture, part of his dress. I do see pro-terror overtones in what, according to their own statements, is a pro-Palestinian symbolic gesture by Western fashion designers. I oppose the terror tactics employed by PLO and Fatah in their intifada, and symbolic gestures of solidarity and support I think are rightly viewed as offensive.
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I have a lot of scarves and shawls from all over the world. I like floaty skirts and scarves. If I'm wearing a scarf around my neck it isn't making any more of a statement than "hey look, this scarf matches (or contrasts well with) my dress."
Seriously, this is like saying that because lots of elementary school teachers wear denim jumpers wearing a denim jumper expresses support for the teacher's union.
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If it could be shown there was some intention of support for terrorism, maybe, though I wouldn't care much unless that intention was vocalized (what do the people viewing the ad know?). However, sometimes a keffiyah is just a keffiyah.
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There are three parts to this discussion. First, is wearing a kaffiyeh in the West a sign of solidarity with Palestinians or particular Palestinian groups? Second, if so, is such solidarity "rightly viewed as offensive?" Finally, third, is the perception that someone is wearing a kaffiyeh sufficient to take offence?
I won't be discussing the second part on this forum, which means I'm not likely to discuss the third, either. That leaves the first, on which I agree with what dkw just posted. Unless you have some other reason to think that a woman in a Dunkin Donunts ad who is wearing something that on first pass looks like it might be a kaffiyeh suggests that Dunkin Donuts are trying to show solidarity with Palestinians or particular Palestinian groups, I don't see why anyone other than Michelle Malkin would jump to that conclusion.
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quote:But the issue seems to me that in this particular trend in this part of the world, it is purposefully representative of pro-Palestinian (or, more recently, anti-Iraq war, which I agree is incoherent) sentiment.
I'm not really willing to accept this as true without at least some sort of support, but, even if you grant that, I don't see how either of these can be said to be supporting terrorism or how someone wearing something that looks sort of like it is anything to get upset about.
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I don't think it would be right if a spokesperson in a commercial wore something identifiable with a culture other than their own or that had to do with the company's background. I mean, if Rachel Ray wore the kwanzaa colors, I would also find that weird. But during the late 80's a lot of people just wore them as a fashion and not for african unity. I think this was just a fashion going around. It probably started with Palestinian solidarity, but after that it just became a fashion. I'd be surprised if Urban Outfitters really intended them as anti-war symbols. If they did, it was with a tin ear.
quote:Being anti-war or being pro-Palestinian is not equal to being pro-terrorist.
This I have to grant.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Senoj, this is exactly the same type of political correctness that these same reactionary types decry progressives for. Just as leftists can come up with occasional far-out rationales about how something rather innocuous is anti-tree, pro-racism, whatever, so too do the rationales from reactionaries in this specific instance.
If you are going to apologize for these folks, then I think you are tacitly accepting that leftists have a point worth defending in their moments of excess.
Of course, in this instance, I don't know for whom the irony is greater.
Which is why I usually don't give a knee-jerk "idiots" when I see something (like this) that doesn't make sense with me.
People have different priors, different experiences, different utilities. I don't agree with Michelle Malkin; I wouldn't have come to the same conclusion she did, or taken the same action. But I can see how a reasonable person could.
I don't agree with Noam Chomsky, either. But (in my moments of greatest charity) I can see how he could come to the conclusions he does and still be reasonable. But I must admit I have called him an idiot on more than one occasion. And occasionally a nut job, probably.
To take another example, Michael Newdow. I don't agree with his conclusions or his actions; but I grant that given a certain set of values which are not inconsistent with what I'd consider acceptable in society, his actions are rational and justifiable.
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Every single male terrorist, and some female terrorists I've every seen has worn pants. Now leftist, pro-terrorist, anti-war, pro-Palestinian, anti-Isreal fashion designers and manufacturers are producing these en-mass. Obviously these symbols of the enemy are part of a psychological war-fare against the west.
I say it must stop.
Right now. If you have unwittingly fallen for this terrorist ploy, remove the evidence that you have done so.
Take of those pants, now!
If you didn't--for shame you terrorist sympathizer, may the ghosts of their victims haunt your zipper.
If you did, prove it. I want photos of your patriotic pants-less-ness. (especially if you are a cute female).
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posted
I am slightly amused by the fact that I have gotten four emails encouraging me to boycott Dunkin Donuts because they caved and pulled the ad.
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"Pantlessness" needs no hyphens. It has been in circulation to describe Donald Duck's trademark status since the late 80's. I retain a boycott mentality toward a lot of companies for various reasons. But I don't like Dunkin Donuts because I don't think they taste very good.
If it's stupid for DD to have pulled the ad, I also think it's stupid to boycott them for it. Not sure if I can explain why.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Being anti-war or being pro-Palestinian is not equal to being pro-terrorist.
Sorry I missed this initially.
That's obviously true.
But using a keffiyah to show anti-war or pro-Palestinian support, particularly a keffiyah in a style closely associated with terrorist elements within the PLO and Fatah, I see as expressing (or perhaps communicating is a better term) sympathy not only to the cause but to the methods.
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edit: Would you think that wearing green on St. Patrick's Day was communicating approval of IRA bombings?
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I could see a case for the pro-Palestinian thing, although I don't agree with it. How would this be possible for an anti-war symbol?
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Yeah, I just don't see where a black and white keffiyah declares allegiance to Arafat, Fatah, or even Hamas. And Arafat was recognized toward the end of his life. He may not have been loved, but they did do business with him.
On the other hand, you have Obama not wearing the lapel pin, because he feels it became jingoistic other than as part of a uniform.
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MrSquicky, at least one of the major peace activist groups does tend to conflate the two. Along with a lot of other things. They tend to lump all the bad foreign policy stuff we do together.
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edit: Would you think that wearing green on St. Patrick's Day was communicating approval of IRA bombings?
Depends where you do it...
Anyway. This scarf is paisley, not checkered; living in L.A., I have never seen women wearing keffiyahs as a show of support for anything; it also wasn't selected by Rachel Ray or Dunkin Donuts, it was apparently pulled off a rack by their stylist, who probably follows fashion trends without any notice of political implications to them (if such exist.)
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boots, I don't know that you understood me. I wasn't trying to ask about the link between anti-war and Israel/Palestine, but between an anti-war symbol and approval of terrorism.
I meant, if someone was wearing it to show support of Palestinians, I could see an argument that they might be expressing an approval of terrorism. I think that argument would most likely be wrong, but I could see grounds to make it.
However, if they were wearing it to protest the Iraq war or war in general, I don't even see grounds on which an argument could be built.
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Oh, I don't think that Rachel Ray or Dunkin Donuts was trying to make any kind of a statment.
My point was that those that are making a statement are not necessarily making a pro-terrorism statement.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: But using a keffiyah to show anti-war or pro-Palestinian support, particularly a keffiyah in a style closely associated with terrorist elements within the PLO and Fatah, I see as expressing (or perhaps communicating is a better term) sympathy not only to the cause but to the methods.
Presumably, though, that would be a red/white kaffiyeh, which is common among Palestinians and is the style Yasser Arafat wore. The scarf in the Dunkin Donuts ad was black/white. There are black/white kaffiyehs as well -- I personally have both varieties -- but black/white is not the type you're talking about if you're talking about "a style closely associated [in the West] with terrorist elements within the PLO and Fatah."
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quote:Originally posted by twinky: Presumably, though, that would be a red/white kaffiyeh, which is common among Palestinians and is the style Yasser Arafat wore.
I just did a Google image search on "Arafat" and found many more examples of him wearing the black-and-white than the red-and-white.
<edit>Here is a shop which carries a "PLO Scarf" which is black-and-white</edit>
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posted
Michelle Malkin is a freak. She is a dangerous fear monger and it's scary that people and corporations listen to her.
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