I have two children in Israel. I haven't seen either of them for 13 years, because of a rabbinic restraining order my ex got against me.
My daughter turned 16 over the weekend. This morning, I received an e-mail from a friend telling me that (a) my daughter has a Facebook account, (b) she has her birthdate displaying with the year fudged to make her seem like she just turned 25 instead of 16, and (c) her profile is open to the public, and not only to people she's friends with on Facebook.
None of that seems very safe to me. Should I let my ex know about this? We are not on good terms, and if my ex knew a magic word that would make me not exist (and never have existed) without making our two kids disappear, I wouldn't be typing this right now.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Don't think about your ex, since he'd rather not think about you.
Think about your daughter.
If it were mine, I'd walk through hell (and seems like that's what you might have to do) and back to keep her as safe as I could, even if I couldn't see her in the forseeable future and hadn't in 13 years.
Can't say that you SHOULD, but I think you want to or you wouldn't be posting this thread. I think it's worth the crap you might take contacting him to let him know someone let you know this.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Could the friend who originally saw it mention this to him? Or do you know anyone else who would be on good enough terms to point this out to him? If so, that might be more effective than doing it yourself.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:None of that seems very safe to me. Should I let my ex know about this?
Yes. I think you are right to think that isn't safe online behavior for a teenager.
I would also make it clear that a friend had informed you of this, so that the ex does not think you were looking for your daughter on facebook to try to contact her secretly online or anything like that.
posted
I can't say that I see much of a problem here. Facebook doesn't have any sort of official status, and so can't get her into any legal trouble (that I know of).
This seems to me like something you would expect of a 16 year old girl. I guess the real question you need to answer is: What are her motives for doing this? If she is trying to attract an older guy, then I could see how it might be a problem, obviously. But what if she's just trying to seem more mature? Trying to legitimize her statements?
The best course of action that I can see would be to get more information. If you can send her a message (maybe through this very same Facebook account), then talk to her directly. If that isn't possible, then maybe do as ricree suggested and go through an intermediary.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Does the restraining order prevent you from contacting your daughter on Facebook? Aren't they usually fairly specific? If not, you could avoid talking to your ex at all, unless of course your daughter is unlikely to take advice from you.
Also, at 16 is she by any chance capable under whatever law the restraining order deals with of making her own decisions? In Norway that would be the age of consent, although not of majority.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Why did the friend contact you instead of her mother?
If it is a mutual friend, then I'm guessing the friend did contact your daughter's mother, in which I don't know that there's anything else you could do.
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On my myspace it says im 26 or something but thats Only because i dont want to put my real age.
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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My 17-year-old has a public facebook page with a fudged birthdate, too. Her desk is about 10 feet from mine. She is, like most teenagers, secretive and up to stuff.
I don't know how safe it is; I like to think that the fact that I know a lot about what she is up to automatically makes it safer. I'm sure I'm fooling myself .
If my ex let me know that he had found out about a "secret" online aspect of her identity, I would appreciate the heads-up. I'd probably go ahead and give him additional info about what I knew of her online activities and what steps I took to keep an eye on things. We have a very amicable and easy-going co-parenting relationship and he lives a mile away, which is very different from your circumstances.
If her facebook page seems particularly dangerous to you, there may be facebook channels you can go through to report the age issue. However, she could easily make another page and probably would.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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Could you just forward your friend's email to your ex? That way he'd see it was your friend who discovered it and not that you were looking for your daughter on facebook. You probably wouldn't even have to include your own comments - just an FYI.
It's possible he already knows about it and doesn't consider it a safety concern. It's also possible your daughter doesn't realize it's public.
T:man, Do you think the different age makes you more safe? Or less?
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Does the restraining order prevent you from contacting your daughter on Facebook? Aren't they usually fairly specific?
It translates into English as "any contact whatsoever".
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: If not, you could avoid talking to your ex at all, unless of course your daughter is unlikely to take advice from you.
Also, at 16 is she by any chance capable under whatever law the restraining order deals with of making her own decisions? In Norway that would be the age of consent, although not of majority.
I don't think so. The restraining order explicitly said until they're 18. I'm also fairly sure that in two years, my ex will interpret that to mean "when they're both 18", which will be two years more.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Why did the friend contact you instead of her mother?
If it is a mutual friend, then I'm guessing the friend did contact your daughter's mother, in which I don't know that there's anything else you could do.
It's not a mutual friend. We don't have any mutual friends. I think I got one friend in the divorce, but she lives in Israel, and I haven't heard from her for years.
(No, there wasn't a literal division of friends in the divorce, but it happens that way, particularly when I was elsewhere afterwards, and my ex got to define reality for them.)
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Could you just forward your friend's email to your ex? That way he'd see it was your friend who discovered it and not that you were looking for your daughter on facebook. You probably wouldn't even have to include your own comments - just an FYI.
That's a really good idea. I'm sure it'll backfire on me somehow anyway, but it's the best I can think of.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I actually would include a comment, along the lines of "I'm not trying to question your parenting, I just want to make sure you're aware of this. I know some people use fake ages on-line to avoid predators, but if that's not what's going on I thought you should know."
Not like you can really make the relationship with your ex worse, but it doesn't hurt to try not to upset her anyway. Might make things easier in 2 years when you try to contact your daughter.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Selran: What is a rabbinic restraining order?
In Israel, there are two types of court. There's the secular state court, and there's the religious courts. Each religion gets to run their own. As I understand it, there are Muslim and Christian court systems, and among other things, they deal with marriage and divorce. As the Jewish (rabbinic) court system does for Jews.
When you're Jewish and you get divorced in Israel, the religious divorce happens in the rabbinic courts. The actual legal divorce agreement can be ratified either in the secular courts or the rabbinic courts, depending on your choice. But whichever you choose, they have jurisdiction over everything relating to the divorce from that point on.
The one exception, again, as I understand it, is child support, which can be dealt with by either court system, regardless of where the divorce started off.
Our divorce, of course, went through the rabbinic system. I imagine that even had it not, my ex might have been able to pull this kind of dirty trick in the rabbinic courts. I was told by one lawyer that if I tried contesting the child support in a secular court, I could conceivably get the whole thing moved there, but I have religious qualms about that.
And yes, a rabbinic restraining order is enforceable in Israel. I violate it, I can go to jail.
The purpose of the restraining order... well, the divorce agreement had these two clauses in it:
Visitation will be determined by a psychologist, psychiatrist or social worker agreed upon mutually by the two parties.
Both parties will have full communication with the children (not in person) until or unless a psychologist, psychiatrist or social worker mutually agreed upon by the two parties says otherwise.
My ex's lawyer put the first clause in, and I read it as "there'll never be visitation". So I asked for, and got, the second clause. The restraining order was an end run around that.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
You're right. There's no way to do this that isn't going to get twisted somehow because of the history involved. I'd ask your friend to contact your ex, preferably by forwarding from their sent mail the one they sent to you.
I suspect your ex will have you spamblocked and any attempt you make directly will not get through. Plus your friend sending the email will not violate the restraining order, where you forwarding it to Israel might.
Someone definitely needs to know about this profile and take action. I truly wish you could be there to work with your daughter on this.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Was this friend looking up your kids on your behalf at your suggestion so you have a way to check on your kids and skirt the restraining order, or was she honestly doing it on her own out of concern for you? I'm not judging either way. If it was the later you could see a lawyer with her, haver make an affidavit stating she was acting on her own, then have the lawyer send a letter to you ex stating your concerns.
That's the best I can offer. It sounds like a horrible situation. I'm sorry.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
There seems to be an easy answer to this (I think), just make up a throw away email and tell the mother that you (an anonymous person) wanted to let her know that her daughter has a Facebook account with a fake birthday. Seems simple enough to me. Mom gets to know and no orders are violated.
Posts: 2064 | Registered: Dec 2003
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The restraining order is against contacting the kids, not the ex, correct? If so, I agree with the forward the e-mail suggestion.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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As a computer teacher for middle school aged children (a little younger than 16, but much of the same applies) I ran across a lot of strategies that people have used to prevent children from being preyed upon by pedophiles. Many of these involved not giving out your age online. Some of them involved giving out an intentionally older age, so that people looking for 12 year old girls will bypass a person whose profile indicates she is, say 25. Not saying this is why she did it, but it's worth noting that fudging her age might not be a bad thing. (although IMO giving out your photograph makes for a bad situation no matter how you slice it)
quote:Why did the friend contact you instead of her mother?
I'm confused. Isn't Lisa her mother?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: Could you just forward your friend's email to your ex? That way he'd see it was your friend who discovered it and not that you were looking for your daughter on facebook. You probably wouldn't even have to include your own comments - just an FYI.
That's a really good idea. I'm sure it'll backfire on me somehow anyway, but it's the best I can think of.
I'd only suggest that considering you haven't seen her in 13 years, getting her in trouble with her father might not be the best approach if you want her back in your life at some point. I'd wait till she's 18, then contact her directly.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Goody Scrivener: I suspect your ex will have you spamblocked and any attempt you make directly will not get through. Plus your friend sending the email will not violate the restraining order, where you forwarding it to Israel might.
Do you have a history of prophecy? I forwarded the e-mail I got from my friend to my ex's Gmail account, and it bounced.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Selran: Was this friend looking up your kids on your behalf at your suggestion so you have a way to check on your kids and skirt the restraining order, or was she honestly doing it on her own out of concern for you?
I didn't put her up to it. I can't say truthfully that I might not have had I thought of it, though.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I know this is not helpful, but I do not understand the ex here. Yes, the situation is awkward and unique, but blocking their father out of their lives is going to leave a hole there. If there was abuse, yeah, then you can cut someone out of the kid's life, but that isn't the case here. And the fact that you learn something which may concern the safety of your and her child and you can't share it with her is just crazy. After 13 years, she needs to get over it and think about what is healthiest for her kids.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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scholarette, I'm sure she is doing what she believes to be healthiest for her kids. Mile in her shoes, etc.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I guess I am seeing it from a different perspective. A few years back, my mil told my father il that it greatly upset my husband when he called and so my fil did as he was told and stopped calling. I know that my mil thought she was doing good, but I saw just how hurt my husband by his father's absense in his life (his dad works long weird hours and is in China, so it is hard for us to call him and we didn't know for like a year about my mil's comment). I also was very annoyed at my mils initial refusal to attend my child's first b-day party because I had also invited my fil and his serious gf (it has been over a decade since they divorced so it wasn't like the woman who was replacing her).
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Can you contact a rabbi who might have some influence with your ex or your daughter?
Honestly? The odds of my finding a rabbi of the kind my ex would listen to are extremely slim. But to make things worse, if he were to tell her to act differently in this area, he'd no longer be a member of the set of rabbis she'd listen to.
There are religious issues involved, but for her, this is much more personal.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: I know this is not helpful, but I do not understand the ex here. Yes, the situation is awkward and unique, but blocking their father out of their lives is going to leave a hole there. If there was abuse, yeah, then you can cut someone out of the kid's life, but that isn't the case here. And the fact that you learn something which may concern the safety of your and her child and you can't share it with her is just crazy. After 13 years, she needs to get over it and think about what is healthiest for her kids.
I had a friend at work while I was living in Israel who was also friends with my ex and family. She didn't know about my past, so I was able to work the conversation around to my ex's family.
She told me that she didn't know the whole story about the missing father, but that she got the impression that there might have been some sort of abuse involved.
I have no idea whether my ex made up a story of abuse, or whether that's just the kind of impression you get when someone has been declared a non-person, not to be discussed.
I do know that people who were close friends of mine before all of this, some of whom I told I was going to transition before I left and who were shocked, but still friendly, now treat me like I have ebola. They won't tell me why, and unfortunately, I have a vivid imagination, so the possible reasons I can think of range from bad to Really Very Bad.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: scholarette, I'm sure she is doing what she believes to be healthiest for her kids. Mile in her shoes, etc.
I've spent years trying to convince myself of that. But the truth is, she grew up in Kansas City, and got teased all the time for being Jewish. She hates being different with a fiery passion that defies description. She got the restraining order when she met the guy she eventually married, and it was clear that she did so because she felt that no one would ever marry her with the prospect of a freak such as me showing up.
True or not, I understand her feeling that way. And I can see her viewing that as protecting the kids by extension, because if my having contact with them would prevent her from remarrying, that wouldn't be good for them.
Still, she agreed to allow me communication with them when we divorced, and no matter what her reasons for abrogating that, it was a cheap move.
When my daughter was about 6 1/2, I met with my ex and her husband. They brought the shrink who advised the Beit Din to issue the restraining order, and I brought one myself. During the meeting, they criticized me for not having sent the children birthday presents. I did send them presents when my daughter was 4 and my son was 2, but before their next birthdays rolled around, I got served with the restraining order, and I was afraid to.
They were very mocking about that. My ex's shrink said, "And you think the restraining order included presents? Who are you kidding?" So a few months later, when it was their birthdays again, I bought a couple of Jewish books, wrote a note in the inside covers, wrapped them, and left them leaning against their front door in the middle of the day.
That night, I got an e-mail from my ex saying that what I did was irresponsible and could have caused irreperable damage to the children, and was in violation of the restraining order, and that if I did it again, she'd have me thrown in jail.
I found out later that she'd destroyed the books and bought them new copies of the same books, so that the notes I wrote would be gone.
So yes, I'm sure that she's even convinced herself that she's doing this for the good of the children, but in all honesty, it's pretty clear that she's doing it because she wants to pretend I never existed.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Are you seriously telling her to ask the mod to remove your post, which you could edit as common courtesy? That's low.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Wait--so you provided personal information about someone other than yourself, and when they personally asked you to remove it, you refused to do so? Why on earth?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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No kidding. Sheesh, steven, your daughter posts here; do you want her to see you being a mule?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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It was a perfectly legitimate question, KoM. It's just that how it was to be answered should have been Lisa's call rather than steven's.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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