posted
(Obviously, this thread will contain spoilers, though not necessarily in this post.)
Well, this weekend I finished the series.
I find myself curiously unable to articulate how I feel at all. I want to talk about it. But don't know where to begin.
On the one hand, I am a completionist. Things have to close, to end. And it ended all right. And there were a lot of good things.
But....but....is this what Frank Herbert meant the series to be? After having finished 'book 7', I can see why Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson spent 10 years laying the groundwork. All of it ties together in 'book 7'. But....I doubt Frank Herbert meant to stop at book 6, write 6 prequels, and then write the final one. And yet, the prequel stuff is so crucial to the finale. Or did Herbert mean to reveal a lot of prequel information in the final book and then tie it in. But that seems hacky. It truly does.
What was in that outline? Will they publish it? I doubt it. But it would be nice...
quote:And yet, the prequel stuff is so crucial to the finale.
That decides it for me - I couldn't force myself to read the second prequel trilogy, so I doubt I'll try Hunters and Sandworm.
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posted
Well, I never read the 2nd prequel trilogy either (the Legends trilogy: Machine Crusade, Butlerian Jihad, Battle of Corrin). You don't need to read them at all. Seriously. Enough back information in the books tells you what you need to know.
It's just that characters and situations that occured back then play a crucial role in the book.
And that's what I wonder about. If so many characters and situations from books Frank Herbert were supposed to play such a role in the final book, why would he not use them throughout 1-6? Perhaps.....just perhaps Herbert had the genius to tell alot of backstory in book 7 that reframed 1-6 and provided resolution. There might be hints in 1-6 that coincide with what pinky and the brain have done with the story.
It's been a while, so I can't remember when certain elements were revealed.
In books 1-6, did we: 1) learn what Tleilaxu axlotle tanks were? 2) ever hear an 'Oracle' mentioned? 3) receive any hint about further struggles with machines?
seriously, I want to know.
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quote:receive any hint about further struggles with machines?
To my mind, the machine issue seemed resolved. However, it was mentioned enough throughout the series that it wouldn't feel out of place for it to become pivotal later in the series.
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posted
I got a third of the way through House Atreites when I put it down and decided that I wasn't interested in reading any more Dune fanfic.
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(STOP READING NOW, IF YOU DONT WANT TO LEARN MORE. I WANT TO ASK A QUESTION BUT DONT WANT TO GIVE AWAY TOO MUCH IN DOING SO.)
Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing. Would the machine struggle seem out of place if it turned out the enemy the honored matres were running from were machines? Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi.
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posted
I reviewed the House trilogy about 5 years ago. My basic conclusion was that it had characters of the same name, in similar circumstances, but profoundly more stupid.
Saw the same in book 7, though I still wanted to see where things SUPPOSEDLY were going. Characters still just as stupid (stupid in their inability to think and come to blindly obvious conclusions), 4 (count em, 4)deus ex machinas, and one 'they all live happily ever after' type ending.
And yet, I am not completely disappointed. As I said, I am unsure how I feel.
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posted
There are 28 instances of the word "oracle" in Dune Messiah. It's mentioned 7 times in God Emperor of Dune. Here are the first few from Messiah:
quote:"Princess, I know what it is you most desire from the Emperor," Edric said.
"Who does not know it?" Irulan asked.
"You wish to be the founding mother of the royal dynasty," Edric said, as though he had not heard her. "Unless you join us, that will never happen. Take my oracular word on it. The Emperor married you for political reasons, but you'll never share his bed."
"So the oracle is also a voyeur," Irulan sneered.
quote:"You must see the dangerous limitations of our shield," Scytale said. "The oracle cannot chance upon what it cannot understand."
quote:"But will I be left with something to father a royal dynasty?" Irulan asked.
They all heard the commitment in her voice, but only Edric smiled at it.
"Something," Scytale said. "Something."
"It means the end of this Atreides as a ruling force," Edric said.
"I should imagine that others less gifted as oracles have made that prediction," Scytale said. "For them, 'mektub al mellah', as the Fremen say."
"The thing was written with salt," Irulan translated.
quote:As he had done many times, Paul wondered how he could explain the delicacy of the oracle, the Timelines without number which vision waved before him on an undulating fabric. He sighed, remembered water lifted from a river in the hollow of his hands -- trembling, draining. Memory drenched his face in it. How could he drench himself in futures growing increasingly obscure from the pressures of too many oracles?
quote:will.
I succumbed to the lure of the oracle, he thought.
And he sensed that succumbing to this lure might be to fix himself upon a single-track life. Could it be, he wondered, that the oracle didn't tell the future? Could it be that the oracle made the future? Had he exposed his life to some web of underlying threads, trapped himself there in that long-ago awakening, victim of a spider-future which even now advanced upon him with terrifying jaws.
quote:Does a chip caught in the wave say where it's going? There's no cause and effect in the oracle. Causes become occasions of convections and confluences, places where the currents meet.
quote:Paul smiled. The issue of the oracle, by Stilgar's judgment, had been closed. Stilgar aimed only at victory, not at discovering truth.
quote:Tleilaxu restoration had given him youth, an innocent intensity which called out to her. She'd understood Paul's unspoken plea. When oracles failed, one turned to real spies and physical powers
quote:Alia stood like a black-robed sentinel figure on the south platform of her temple, the Fane of the Oracle which Paul's Fremen cohorts had built for her against a wall of his stronghold.
posted
Interesting. Kind of answers some questions.
My gut feeling is that there was/is an outline. And in the outline, certain elements (like 'Oracle', when used in the singular sense, as opposed to a general noun, the Butlerian Jihad, Duncan's importance, Kralizec) and conflicts were made clear, things hinted at in a very none dramatic way. Just Herbert's style. There was a definite plan of where everything was going.
But in formulating a strategy for dealing with all of this, it was realized that very few people could reveal so much information that was subtly hinted at in 1-6, in just one book without it seeming jarring. There was so much that needed to be shown. For it all to happen in 1 book would require a delicate and subtle hand, adept at working prose and reveals. But Brian Herbert is none of those things (and his name would make it all seem authentic, rather than simply fan-fic. If an Asimov could have had written the New Foundation Trilogy, the publishers would have had them do it, rather than Benford, Brin and Bear. As it is, they have had mixed reactions from fans, though I personally enjoyed them immensely.) So more books, prequels, would be needed to flesh some of these things out, to make them more obvious (read, dumbed down), and to make book 7 make more sense. This, too, presented a financial opportunity. Elements mentioned briefly could be expanded upon to form prequel novels that would make money, and promote the Dune series in a new way, putting the series out in the public mind again. Seemed like a win-win situation.
Until they enlisted the king of all hacks, that destroyer of franchises, Kevin J Anderson. Herbert was not much better. (Anyone read Race for God? Pretty lame, but still sounded alot more like Frank Herbert then anything Anderson has written. Thus, I place the brunt of it on Anderson.) What started out as a tentatively good idea with much potential rapidly turned into a joke, as the Duniverse was turned into a melodramatic James Patterson novel. Now, don't get me wrong. I like James Patterson or John Sanford. They are 'airplane' books. Quick reads (usually 1 day). Literary (in the loosest sense) fast food. The go quick, are fun. And when you're done, you're done. No ideas to ponder or ethical and moral questions. But that's what Dune was. And these weren't.
That is my biggest complaint. And yet, I think I catch glimmers of what Frank Herbert was trying to do. I'm gonna reread the originals and look for clues.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:There are 28 instances of the word "oracle" in Dune Messiah. It's mentioned 7 times in God Emperor of Dune. Here are the first few from Messiah:
I interpreted IanO's question to be about a particular being called the Oracle, not about references to the term in connection with precognition.
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posted
The first quote seemed more 'personal'. "The Oracle is a voyeur..." I wonder if it appears more often...
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posted
I'm a big fan of the original 6. I haven't read any of the prequels though. Naturally, since "Dune 7" is supposed to be based on FH's notes, I was eager to get some insight into how he meant to resolve some of the mysteries that remained at the end of Chapterhouse. Thus, Hunters was my first non-FH Dune novel.
I found it to be... okay, though greatly lacking the depth of the classic novels. However, I was very disappointed with how the authors decided to handle the mystery of Daniel and Marty. I'm certain that they chose an approach that would validate their own prior works rather than going with what Frank Herbert actually intended. For that reason, even though I'm still looking forward to reading Sandworms (I ordered it from the sfbc and I'm still waiting for it) since I'm sure it has some entertainment value, I don't consider "Dune 7" to be canon. More like a hypothetical ending. Like IanO, I don't think that Herbert Sr. meant to go back and write 6 prequels in order to set the stage for the series finale. So if "Dune 7" is based on his ideas, I find it strange that it relies so much on background established in books that weren't written in his lifetime.
Also, like many fans, I wish that they would release the notes that these works are supposedly based on... You know, if they actually exist.
*edit* BTW, there was at least one minor hint in the original novels that implied that thinking machines might be the future threat to mankind.
GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE SPOILER:
When Leto II took Siona out into the desert in order to teach her the necessity of the Golden Path, she saw a vision of humans hiding from machines that were hunting them down. Some fans believe that she was seeing what the future would be like if the Golden Path failed.
END SPOILER
Yes, the nature of the Axlotl tanks was revealed in Heretics, but I'm certain that there were no references to the Oracle of Time.
posted
My interpretation of "the Oracle is a voyeur" was that Irulan was referring to Edric in response to his "take my oracular word on it". Until The Oracle was revealed in Hunters (and oh man the jawdrop when I read THAT), I simply took any references to oracles as indicative of prescience caused by spice addiction.
IanO: Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing. The axlotl tanks were women that were used by the Tleilaxu as wombs for gholas. Remember the comments in several books about never seeing a Tleilaxu woman? Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat.
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posted
I have to agree with your comments. After having created this 'rich' (a joke) backstory, they felt impelled to include that backstory as integrally as the original canonical material.
Case in point, the usage of 'Oracle'. The usage is non-specific, but rather to ability. The one quote, though, was a bit more, and, I think, Herbert and Anderson ran with it. You analysis of the quote is, I think, the proper one.
Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing. I just couldn't remember when this was revealed clearly. I know it figured in the prequel house books (conquest of Ix, I think). And prominantly in book 7. But wasn't sure if it actually appeared explicitly delineated anywhere in books 1-6. In that case, other than the 'never saw a female Tleilaxu' comment, I think this came directly from Herbert's background notes and they ran with it. I am ok with that. The oracle, on the other hand. No. Pissed me off. Among other things. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat.
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During the six Dune novels, I loved the characters, and was deeply interested in everything going on.
While reading Hunters of Dune, I realized something different:
I don't like those characters. I don't like them, nor do I care about their struggles.
And I don't know if it was just the characters, or... our friendly new authors, who were the cause of this.
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posted
I began to disconnect from the Dune series around the middle of God Emperor. I fell back in love with the House trilogy. Yeah, I know, I'm weird. But I know that part of it was "seeing" familiar faces again. The Legends trilogy felt contrived in many places, especially the Harkonnen/Atreides relationship. Come on, these two families have been at each other's throats for *that* long?!
But it wasn't till after the House trilogy and partway through the Legends trilogy that I was finally able to get through Heretics and Chapterhouse. I still don't *like* Heretics, but I still read it. Kind of a necessary evil, I suppose.
Right now I'm having trouble getting through Sandworms. I can only manage a chapter or sometimes two before the mind starts wandering off on tangents. Not sure if it's because the story is that lame or if I'm just picking bad times to try and read.
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I'll say one interesting thing, though:
During the six Dune novels, I loved the characters, and was deeply interested in everything going on.
While reading Hunters of Dune, I realized something different:
I don't like those characters. I don't like them, nor do I care about their struggles.
And I don't know if it was just the characters, or... our friendly new authors, who were the cause of this.
I think it's that they lose much of their depth when written by BH and KJA. It's another reason why I don't like to think of "Dune 7" as canon (even having not read Sandworms yet). It's not that they are bad books in their own right, but the characters don't feel the same, nor does the universe itself.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
For one thing, they have taken stupid pills. Seriously.
For example (House Atreides spoiler):
Shaddam has Fenring poison his father Abulerd so that he, as heir, can become emperor. Shaddam hovers over the royal doctor, refuses to allow an autopsy, and generally acts so guilty a retarded monkey should know he had his father killed. But does anyone bring it up? Is the coronation held off? Are charges brought against him by CHOAM (who'd have a vested interest in doing so)? Nope, nope, nope. How dumb are these people. Regicide/patricide is typical in royal families. No one notices?
There're other examples. These people couldn't manipulate a pizza delivery guy into delivering the pizzas in his car, let alone trillions of people for millenia.
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posted
The characters also seem to forget things that they should already know.
Chapterhouse and Hunters Spoiler
When the Miles Teg ghola regained his memories in Chapterhouse, the first thing he did was demonstrate his super human speed, which until then, the Bene Gesserit thought was just a rumour. But in Hunters Teg goes to great lengths to hide this ability from others, including Duncan and Sheeana who have already seen it.
END SPOILER
Actually, I've heard that there's a passage in the UK edition that addresses this issue, but apparently it was cut from the US edition for some reason.
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: Shaddam has Fenring poison his father Abulerd...
[NITPICK] Shaddam's father's name is Elrood. [/END NITPICK]
So I'm actually now rereading the six original Dune books after rereading the six trilogy books. Yeah, I'm nuts. The point is, after starting this time with the Herbert/Anderson books, getting to Frank Herbert's writing is a great relief.
I'm not looking forward to reading the conclusion penned by Herbert/Anderson. But I know I'll read it anyway 'cause I'll want to know what they have to say. (Drat that irresistable urge. I know I'll just end up disappointed and annoyed.)
But, goodness, it's nice to be reading Children of Dune again. Frank Herbert drew me into this world, and I only wish he'd lived long enough to complete it. His son and that Kevin J. Anderson creature do not do any of the ideas behind Dune any justice. But I do like the whole Butlerian Jihad stuff a bit better than the House stuff. Except for the annoying use of this .... They use those periods so many times in The Butlerian Jihad that I started to twitch....
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: Shaddam has Fenring poison his father Abulerd...
[NITPICK] Shaddam's father's name is Elrood. [/END NITPICK]
Abulerd (not sure how to spell it offhand but that looks wrong to me) was a Harkonnen. Vladimir's father, perhaps? Definitely a long standing family name as I believe that was also the name of one of Xavier's immediate relatives in the Legends trilogy.
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posted
BTW. Apparently Sandworms is selling better than any of the other new Dune novels, having debuted at #3 on Publisher's Weekly list and #4 on the NY times list, with sales 22% higher than Hunters. In other words, BH and KJA will feel more than justified in writing more.
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posted
Yeah, Elrood. Brainfart. In my defense, it's been 4 years since I read the house trilogy. Abulerd was the father, I think, of Rabban and Feyd (though I could be wrong, there).
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posted
In Sandworms, there is one question that everyone wonders about for years. The answer is so blindly obvious that one wonders how these people get their shoes on. Then, when they finally get a partial answer (whose conclusion is so very obvious), they still miss the place and time this all occurred and what that indicates. I kept thinking to myself, hey! it happened here! Duh! It was there! And that should tell you something! Instead, they go off on tangents and jumping to conclusions because of prejudice.
I'm trying to be oblique here, while telling anyone whose finished the book what I'm talking about. I'd love to hear their reactions.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: Yeah, Elrood. Brainfart. In my defense, it's been 4 years since I read the house trilogy. Abulerd was the father, I think, of Rabban and Feyd (though I could be wrong, there).
Yes! Now that you say it, it clicked. And I also remember now that he was so disgusted with his brother Vladimir that he discarded the Harkonnen name and took his wife's name (Rabban). But somehow Vladimir fostered The Beast (what was his given name??? another brainfart) and then when Abulurd and his wife were killed (I think caused by something The Beast did?), Vlad got custody of Feyd-Rautha as well, being next of kin. Lovely Feyd.... Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The Beast Rabban, who had been raised by Vladimir. He embraced the Harkonnen cruelty. His father rejected him as son and Rabban started to kill him. Abulerd said something melodramatic like, 'you can't kill your father, that would make you a beast!' So he killed him and embraced his name Beast.
posted
I have both Hunters and Sandworms sitting on my shelf waiting to be read. Hunters has been there since it was released, and I got Sandworms when it came out a few weeks back. Why haven't I read them? Because I haven't read Heretics or Chapterhouse.
I've read every other Dune book that's out there. I enjoyed them all. Frank Herbert's are good for being both interesting and thought provoking. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's are good for being more entertainment oriented.
Side tangent: I personally like Anderson's work, not because I think he's a great writer or anything but because with his work I can be entertained and relax without much thinking. I know that may seem like blasphemy or something, but I spend so much other time during the day thinking a lot and very deeply (hooray for being slightly OC and having high anxiety), I do need time to just unwind and not think. His work does that for me. I'm entertained by a decent story that doesn't involve a whole lot of effort on my part. Again, I'm not saying he's great or that anyone else should like his work like I do. That's just how I feel.
Back on topic: I read Dune through God Emperor of Dune right before the first prequel book came out. I waited a bit before getting the prequels. On the House trilogy, I waited until they were all in paperback. With the earlier trilogy, I got them all used at Half-Price Books for real cheap (hardcovers too). I read them as well. Before Hunters came out, all I had left to read was Heretics and Chapterhouse. Somehow the two got misplaced though. Of the six original books, I can only find my copy of Dune. Everything else has mysteriously vanished. I keep telling myself that I'm going to spend $14 or $15 to just buy new copies, but I know that the second I do the old ones will magically appear. So as of yet I haven't read them.
I keep thinking maybe I'll just read summaries of them so that I can get to Hunters (and now Sandworms) and then go back and read them in full at a later time (probably when I finally move all of my stuff out from my parents' house). I'm not sure if it's a good idea though. Any opinions anyone?
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think my hatred of Kevin Anderson's writing stems from his butchery of already developed characters and continuity. That is to say, his stand alone books probably aren't all that bad (though I haven't read them) because he's not playing in someone else's universe (Dune or Star Wars). When he IS using preexisting characters, plots, and ideas, he botches it.
But even having said that, they are entertaining in a James-Patterson-kind way. I actually enjoy his books. They are very quick, fun, and forgetable (I love Alex Cross books and the Womens Murder Club- sue me). As I said, airplane/shut your brain off books (James Rollins is in there, too, though he is a little more thought provoking- I said a little ). The House trilogy is a perfect example. Enjoyed it. But at the same time wondered how everyone got so incredibly stupid, and how come this contradicted that, and so on.
I just can't ever forgive him for dropping the ball after Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. Never. He led the EU into a Bantam crapfest that was only occasionally redeemed with good stories (and not in full, until Zahn ended that era with his Thrawn duology. Of course, and this is another thread, the NJO was also a mixed bag. Legacy of the Force probably represents the strongest era, so far. So far, I said.)
I don't know what Brian Herbert was smoking to think that Anderson would do his father's seminal, brilliant work justice. I just can't fathom it...
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posted
Oh, recommedations? No, I would not do that. I mean, Wikipedia has a pretty good summary, but still, most of the characters and all of the plots in Hunters and Sandworms are from the last 2 books. After God Emperor, it was nebulous where this were going, beyond a knowledge that the Golden Path was established and the scattering occured. But book 5 and 6 began to explore where that was leading and introduced a number of characters and showed where the scattering had led, as well as introduced new enemies.
you need to read them.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: I have to agree with your comments. After having created this 'rich' (a joke) backstory, they felt impelled to include that backstory as integrally as the original canonical material.
Case in point, the usage of 'Oracle'. The usage is non-specific, but rather to ability. The one quote, though, was a bit more, and, I think, Herbert and Anderson ran with it. You analysis of the quote is, I think, the proper one.
Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing. I just couldn't remember when this was revealed clearly. I know it figured in the prequel house books (conquest of Ix, I think). And prominantly in book 7. But wasn't sure if it actually appeared explicitly delineated anywhere in books 1-6. In that case, other than the 'never saw a female Tleilaxu' comment, I think this came directly from Herbert's background notes and they ran with it. I am ok with that. The oracle, on the other hand. No. Pissed me off. Among other things. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat.
I have to say, imbedding something in Latin(?) has got to be the best way of hiding a spoiler I've seen. What's it from? Does it have a meaning related to the content (don't know enough latin).
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz:I have to say, imbedding something in Latin(?) has got to be the best way of hiding a spoiler I've seen. What's it from? Does it have a meaning related to the content (don't know enough latin). [/QB]
I agree, that was brilliant. Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: Oh, recommedations? No, I would not do that. I mean, Wikipedia has a pretty good summary, but still, most of the characters and all of the plots in Hunters and Sandworms are from the last 2 books. After God Emperor, it was nebulous where this were going, beyond a knowledge that the Golden Path was established and the scattering occured. But book 5 and 6 began to explore where that was leading and introduced a number of characters and showed where the scattering had led, as well as introduced new enemies.
you need to read them.
Okay, maybe after Metroid Prime 3 comes out, I'll scrounge up some money to re-buy those two. I'm keeping my fingers crossed though that they reappear before then.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
theamazeeaz, thanks. It's latin dummy text. When some people design websites, they want to see what it looks like with text, but they want to focus on the formatting, so just a string of random characters wouldn't work. So they usually use latin texts (though they might also use Moby Dick, I suppose- unless there's an issue of copyright.) Bottom line is, they can focus on the look of the text without having to read the text.
In my own case, I have a tendency to read quickly, especially entire 2 or 5 sentence paragraphs (or at least see major words). More than that, my eye often drops down rapidly while I'm reading (or see's a small paragraph peripherally), absorbing a sentence or 2 and then back to where I was. More than once, it has spoiled a climax for me, so I have worked to keep my eye from doing that. In this case, though the whole thread contains spoilers, I didn't want someone to accidently read something without having to make a conscious effort. True, the english text in the latin is easy to see, but there is just enough similarity to english that you have to linearly scan it from the beginning of the english text. Hopefully, enough latin text is there for you to recognize that a spoiler is ahead and you can skip it. More than that, your peripheral vision has a hard time picking out from the latin, so you are safe there too. Seemed better then a page full of blank lines you had to scroll through.
The best technique I've seen (which can't be done here because there's no embedded HTML code) is to set the color of the text to the background color. Then it is invisible and a person has to manually highlight the invisible text to make it visible. That is the safest, I think.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: Before Hunters came out, all I had left to read was Heretics and Chapterhouse. Somehow the two got misplaced though. Of the six original books, I can only find my copy of Dune. Everything else has mysteriously vanished. I keep telling myself that I'm going to spend $14 or $15 to just buy new copies, but I know that the second I do the old ones will magically appear. So as of yet I haven't read them.
So...why not just check them out from the library?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I was able to replace 5 of my Original 6 paperbacks (Chapterhouse didn't need replacing) through used bookstores for about $10. Heretics had vanished entirely, the other 4 were disintegrating from repeated rereads. Might be worth a look.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The local used bookstore doesn't have any of Chapterhouse or Heretics. They have all the others though. That's typically how my luck is.
As for the library, I'm not a slow reader but I do like to take things at my own pace. That means I only read so many chapters/sections a night. In turn this means that books get spaced out a bit, longer than a check out at the library would be. I know I can go back and re-check it out again, but that entails more hassle. Personally I'd rather drop a few dollars and not have to deal with said hassle.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: The local used bookstore doesn't have any of Chapterhouse or Heretics. They have all the others though. That's typically how my luck is.
Want me to check my bookstores for you? I won't get to go shopping till Saturday, though.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
No, that's okay. I'll check mine again this weekend (it's been about a month or so since I last checked) and maybe I'll get lucky. Thanks for the offer though. Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing. As soon as Thufir was revealed to be a face dancer, I knew the Rabbi was one as well and when it had happened. And I'm not a Mentat. Even if we grant the mentats couldn't see it, why oh why do they not seal the doors from the outside when testing everyone. This is so obvious as to amount to criminal negligence not to do it. Finally, spreading out your ships that can move instantaneously through space to fight a fleet that can only move at lightspeed but that outnumbers you 100 to 1 is stupid stupid stupid stupid. Also, the axlotl tanks being females is explicitly revealed, not just hinted at, in book 5 or 6, but I can't remember where. I remember thinking KJA and BH had clumsily clunked that into the prequels for no reason at all. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing. Thank you. I was screaming 'planet of the handlers' people!!! But they just didn't get it. It was so obvious. And the blinking arrows appeared when the Rabbi decided to stay (huh?) and then tricked Yueh into killing the Leto ghola. That was completely botched because we SAW the Rabbi tell Yueh it was Piter DeVries. So we knew we wasn't lying. Ergo, the Rabbi was lying. And given the connection between him and Hawat on the planet, it was so obvious. I am willing to take your word about the axlotl tanks (and I do remember the comment about never seeing Tleilaxu females) but its just that I remember the prequel (House Atreides, I think) being the first place that it was explicitly said that women were used for that purpose. Bigger questions are these: Did FH really mean for the nameless enemy to be the machines (and I'm not talking about Daniel and Marty- it is undeniable that they were master face dancers in book 6.) But did FH really mean to bring the machines back? To make them that threat? And to make Kralizec be all about the struggle between man and machine? Because without the Giants of Dune trilogy (or whatever it was called, about the Butlerian Jihad), it would seem really really odd. No living machines (or machine enemies) mentioned for 6 books, and then, suddenly, they show up in the 7th? I have a hard time believing it. And Duncan as the true Kwizatz Haderach? What do you think? Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat. Duis te feugifacilisi. Lorem ipsem solar sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit,sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat enim ad or minim veniam, quis nostrud. Druem oratation ullamcorper suscipit lobortisl ut aliquip commodo consequat.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: BTW. Apparently Sandworms is selling better than any of the other new Dune novels, having debuted at #3 on Publisher's Weekly list and #4 on the NY times list, with sales 22% higher than Hunters. In other words, BH and KJA will feel more than justified in writing more.
posted
I read the house atreides one the week it came out. was so disappointed I've tried to pretend that none of the other books existed. then I read the summaries of the book seven books on wikipedia and was intrigued and disgusted. I've always been a fifty/fifty split that Daniel and Marty were face dancers or machines.
I'll happily read Scott R Bakker's heavily influenced by Dune series, _The Prince of Nothing_ instead. He should be given the opportunity to rewrite Dune 7, as it would be phenomenal. Posts: 128 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I tried Scott R. Bakker and just could not get through Prince of Nothing. I didn't realize it was influenced by Dune at the time.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I tried some fan fic versions of book 7 not long after starting this thread. My idea was that after reading a few versions, I would get a consensus view of where most thought FH was going with the series. They were based entirely on books 1-6 and extrapolated heavily. My verdict? They weren't too bad. They were loads better than the crap BH and KJA put out. I felt some closure for the story. Their endings were more true to the originals than the hunters/sandworms. Too bad I can't remember much about them (they all kind of run togethe) or which ones I liked Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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). The House trilogy is a perfect example. Enjoyed it. But at the same time wondered how everyone got so incredibly stupid, and how come this contradicted that, and so on.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
