posted
Short question: Does modern Judaism teach that is is wrong to engage in pre-marital sex?
Background:
I feel like I know a lot about the ancient Jewish people from reading the Torah and Prophets and such, but I don't know too much about the modern beliefs of religious Jews.
I don't know that I have ever actually met a Jew. I mean I probably have, but unless someone says they are a Jew, I sure couldn't tell by how they look or even their name, because I don't tend to profile people that way. Plus I don't know how many Jews are in the San Francisco area. I've also never met a Methodist as far as I know. People here don't really talk about their religions too much, in my experience.
So my knowledge of modern Jews comes from tv... which I imagine leaves me quite ignorant.
Anyway, I watched a movie called Keeping the Faith which had Ben Stiller in it as a rabbi that falls in love with non-Jew Jenna Elfman. Spoilers follow: he has a sexual relationship with her, and apparently has no qualms about the fact that he is unmarried.
Now I know that many Jews are basically racial Jews, but don't necessarily practice Judaism or even believe in God. So given the current cultural mores, I wouldn't expect them to have a problem with pre-marital sex.
And even when a religion teaches a thing, many of the members are sort of members by birth perhaps. They answer "what's your religion?" with "Well my parents are Catholic..." meaning they aren't committed to it, so no surprise there if they don't follow some of the teachings they don't like.
But one would expect a leader in a religion to take the teachings of that religion seriously, right?
So if a rabbi is having pre-marital sex, with nary a thought about it (though he does have qualms with his girlfriend not being Jewish), then it seems the movie is implying that Judaism does not teach that it's a sin to have sex before marriage.
So, does current-day Judaism teach that is is wrong to engage in pre-marital sex?
And if it does, and if you've seen the movie I refer to, how offended are you by the portrayal of Judaism in that movie?
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
1) I am offended by Ben Stiller. No particular movie is necessary to help that along.
2) Wikipedia tells me the character is supposed to be a Conservative rabbi. I have no idea what the official Conservative position is on pre-marital sex, but I do know that the majority of Conservative Jews I know certainly don't think there's anything wrong with it.
3) Orthodox Jews do think there's a problem -- several significant ones, actually -- with premarital sex. (And with dating/marrying non-Jews, for that matter.) Which doesn't mean there are never slip-ups, etc., just that it's considerably less common. If you want a movie that deals accurately with the Orthodox view on dating, check out the marvelous Arranged.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm a former Conservative Jew who now attends a Modern Orthodox synagogue. I am extremely offended by that movie. It was so insulting to Judaism on so many levels.
While many Conservative Jews don't feel that premarital sex is a big deal, I never met a Conservative rabbi who felt that it was okay. There's NO WAY a Conservative rabbi would not be fired after it came out that he was having a sexual relationship with a non-Jew. Also no rabbi would ever tell a Bar Mitzvah boy to "love that he sucks." Then there's the gospel choir. You just wouldn't bring in a Christian choir to "wake up" a passive congregation. That's just ridiculous.
And it so happens that my husband was born and raised on the Upper West Side of Manhattan where the movie takes place. I went to college there and I am very familiar with the Jewish community. The movie in no way comes close to portraying that community accurately. In reality, it is a vibrant, observant community.
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posted
Followup question on dating/marrying non-Jews: is that for religious reasons, racial reasons, or both?
In other words, if someone who had no Jewish ethnic background whatsoever wanted to convert, would they be welcome, and could they then marry a Jew with no problem?
Because I totally understand a religion teaching marrying outside the religion is wrong. That only makes sense. But caring about the actual race of a person doesn't make sense to me; after all, Ruth was not born a Jew, being from Moab, but she converted and didn't get dissed for it.
I'm definitely not down with trying to maintain racial purity or some such.
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posted
Hearing this makes me sad, because I really love Keeping the Faith.
However, I only tolerate Ben Stiller in it, and I know nothing beyond knowledge gained at Hatrack (and Chaim Potok novels, which are also apparently scorned by the Jews on this board, who would know) about Conservative Judaism.
The character I really love and the reason I love this movie is Edward Norton's Brian, the Catholic priest. While I find his "sermons" to be improbable and more than a little disrespectful, I thought the way he talked about his private life was very touching and realistic.
Same for Jenna Elfman's character - I love the way she dresses Ben Stiller's character down for looking down on her and having such a low opinion of her, because clearly that she was attracted meant she was looking for more spirituality in her life. I DIDN'T think the taking-classes-to-convert thing was either admirable or a romantic gesture (faking covenants with God is never cool), but I guess it certainly happens.
Any theories as to why they got the Catholics okay but the Jew so wrong? Or did they NOT get the Catholics okay?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: In other words, if someone who had no Jewish ethnic background whatsoever wanted to convert, would they be welcome, and could they then marry a Jew with no problem?
While Judaism discourages conversion, anyone who actually goes through the process of Orthodox conversion is as Jewish as I am. I am proud to count several converts as friends, and would date a convert with no reservations.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I pretty much assumed that Hollywood was full of it, as per usual, but thought I'd double check with some people likely to have a more accurate view. Thanks for the replies.
Hollywood has such a warped view of religion, any religion, it seems. Like it isn't supposed to actually impact someone's choices at all. In their world, everyone has pre-marital sex, regardless of their background or beliefs... so myopic a view of the world, and yet they consider themselves so open-minded... the irony chokes one.
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quote:In other words, if someone who had no Jewish ethnic background whatsoever wanted to convert, would they be welcome, and could they then marry a Jew with no problem?
While the conversion process is quite difficult, once a person is converted, they are as Jewish as if they'd been born to a Jewish mother and can marry a Jew. In fact, it's against the law to remind a convert that he's a convert. However, the conversion would have to be done under the supervision of an Orthodox rabbi in order for it to be kosher (so to speak - I have twin pregnancy brain and cannot elaborate more clearly than that - I'm sure rivka will have a better explanation ).
Race doesn't matter in Judaism. There are both black and Asian Jews in my shul and I have cousins who are Japanese and Indian (and Jewish).
Interesting aside - adopted children must be formally converted to Judaism unless you know that they were born to a Jewish mother.
The ethnic and genetic history of the Jewish people is incredibly complex and interesting. Many Jews have non-Jewish blood due to crimes visited upon them in the past. My husband, for example, has Mongolian from his father's side and some Asian from his mother's side (she's of Russian descent). He is very Eurasian looking.
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posted
Okay, I put a note in my pocket to create a Tivo wishlist for Arranged.
Why does Judaism discourage conversion? Do you mean you'd really rather people not convert, or you just want to make it a bit harder so people don't frivolously "convert" for non-legitimate reasons?
And what do you consider the status of non-Jews with G-d?
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I will answer the last question first. Non-Jews, assuming they keep the seven Noachide laws, merit the World to Come. This is part of why we discourage conversion, which makes the convert obligated in all 613 commandments, and which cannot be undone. Far better to stay a Noachide, who is not obligated in the laws of kashrus, than to convert and then decide kashrus is not for them. (As an example.)
Also, if a Tivo wishlist means you think it's going to show up on TV, I seriously doubt that. Indie film, remember? Netflix has it, and you can even stream it on Netflix instantly.
posted
I don't have cable, so I have no idea what IFC is. I'd lend you my copy if you were closer (and if I didn't already have a line 7 deep to borrow it).
Jewfaq.com and Aish.com are both good places to explore for more info, BTW. Enjoy! Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Netflix has a free trial period available, during which time you can use the "watch instantly" feature all you want.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
[spoilers for Keeping the Faith, I suppose]
I kinda liked Keeping the Faith on its own terms, but I was disappointed by the cop-out ending, in which religious concerns turn out to be a complete non-issue in the face of Love Conquers All.
(The gospel choir bit was wildly sacrilegious, given the meaning of the prayer in question, but also one of the best bits of the film; I took it as establishing that the brand of Judaism practiced by Stiller's character was fundamentally incompatible with the real thing. But I suppose that doesn't come across if you're not familiar with the real thing.)
And I enthusiastically second the jewfaq.org recommendation.
Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
*hijack* I didn't realise that the Jewish Jatraqueros didn't like Chaim Potok's novels. That surprises me. Rivka, others, what is it you don't like about them?
Posts: 1550 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: In other words, if someone who had no Jewish ethnic background whatsoever wanted to convert, would they be welcome, and could they then marry a Jew with no problem?
While Judaism discourages conversion, anyone who actually goes through the process of Orthodox conversion is as Jewish as I am. I am proud to count several converts as friends, and would date a convert with no reservations.
But as much as we discourage converts, we most particularly discourage people from converting for the purpose of marriage. Most Orthodox rabbis will turn someone away entirely if that's the reason.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Btw, Ben Stiller isn't Jewish himself, and it's because his Jewish father married his non-Jewish mother. So it's not all that surprising that he'd do a movie of that sort.
I actually liked the first four Potok novels I read. As novels. As anything about Judaism, they're dreck. Potok is a Conservative Rabbi, and he painted Orthodox Judaism in two different poor lights. One was that he intimated that Orthodox Jews who aren't willing to compromise the way the narrator's father is are fanatics and horrible parents, and the other was his painting the narrator's father as Orthodox, when he wasn't.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Any theories as to why they got the Catholics okay but the Jew so wrong?
In my opinion, one of the big reasons why Jews are portrayed so wrong in Hollywood has a lot to do with the large number of Jews in Hollywood. Most of them aren't religious, and are either (a) too ignorant to get it right, or (b) have a chip on their shoulders that makes them get it wrong.
I think (a) is more prevelant. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by mere stupidity".
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: But as much as we discourage converts, we most particularly discourage people from converting for the purpose of marriage. Most Orthodox rabbis will turn someone away entirely if that's the reason.
Good point.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Potok is a Conservative Rabbi, and he painted Orthodox Judaism in two different poor lights. One was that he intimated that Orthodox Jews who aren't willing to compromise the way the narrator's father is are fanatics and horrible parents, and the other was his painting the narrator's father as Orthodox, when he wasn't.
Agreed. He's worse than I.B. Singer in both respects. Singer at least had some fondness for the religious home he grew up in.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: In my opinion, one of the big reasons why Jews are portrayed so wrong in Hollywood has a lot to do with the large number of Jews in Hollywood. Most of them aren't religious, and are either (a) too ignorant to get it right, or (b) have a chip on their shoulders that makes them get it wrong.
I think (a) is more prevalent. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by mere stupidity".
Not quite how I would put it, but agreed.
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posted
Not only is pre-marital sex not permitted, but pre-marital touching between the sexes is not permitted (with exceptions for family members). This is followed to differing extents depending on how observant someone is.
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Did I recommend it to you, or did you discover it some other way?
You wrote a Netflix Note on a day when I was insomniacing and wanted something good to watch while I didn't sleep and went through my coupons. It was so good I totally didn't go through my coupons and just watched the movie. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: You wrote a Netflix Note on a day when I was insomniacing and wanted something good to watch while I didn't sleep and went through my coupons. It was so good I totally didn't go through my coupons and just watched the movie.
I remember thinking you might enjoy it. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't blame Ben Stiller for the movie - I blame Ed Norton, who directed it (and rumor has it that he ghost wrote a lot of it). He's Protestant. I read an interview where he said that he considers himself an "honorary Jew" because he went to more than 10 Bar Mitzvahs. Which I think goes a long way toward explaining the awfulness of the movie.
In my experience, many non-observant Jews are very resentful of those of us who are observant and I think that is very apparent in Hollywood. Possibly the worst one was A Price Above Rubies. It's so ironic that so many people who consider themselves to be extremely tolerant are completely intolerant of their own traditions. This is getting to be a problem for me personally, as my non-observant mother-in-law is increasingly derisive of our increasingly frum observance. Our shul is going to send over the high school girls when the twins are born and I was telling her that we're in the process of making arrangements for transportation. She asked why Andrew couldn't just drive them and when I explained (a non-relative adult male driving teenage girls isn't permitted), she went on and on about how ridiculous that is and how Andrew is trustworthy (which is not the point). She told me that she wouldn't attend a bris if we had a boy and is constantly undermining Andrew's attempts to be more frum. I'm not even telling her that my rabbi is working with my OB to figure out something for Yom Kippur. She's entitled to her opinion and it wouldn't be more than an annoyance, but I'm trying to raise frum children and she won't keep her opinions to herself.
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posted
My BT sister-in-law is going through something similar with her mother. I talked to her mother a few weeks ago at a wedding. She's upset because the grandchildren can't eat in her house, she can't take them for the weekend, etc. The four year old (who is sorta in that stage) is telling her things like, "Jews don't wear tank tops. Some people don't know. But now that you know, you can stop." Just a short anecdote from the other side.
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: The four year old (who is sorta in that stage) is telling her things like, "Jews don't wear tank tops. Some people don't know. But now that you know, you can stop."
Hoo boy... When our four year old lectured an old man at the park about couldn't he see the sign that said no smoking in the park, and did he know that Heavenly Father and Jesus didn't want him to do that? we had to have a Talk. Especially because while my parents don't smoke, they do drink alcohol and coffee, as do most of my friends, and it's more embarassing when it's family or a close friend than some random guy in the park (though that was embarassing enough...)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Minerva: She's upset because the grandchildren can't eat in her house, she can't take them for the weekend, etc.
I'm confused. Couldn't she give them kosher prepackaged foods or stuff like grilled cheese sandwiches that were cooked in a skillet that wasn't used for meat or non-kosher foods?
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posted
She could give them pre-packaged, sealed food. She could not give them food cooked in a skillet of any kind unless it was done in a kosher kitchen under supervision. They could have raw fruits and veggies, though, under most circumstances.
But let's face it, most grandmas want to cook a roast and make cookies for their grandkids. (Or a curry or a soup or spaghetti or whatever long, involved dish is traditional in the culture.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: Couldn't she give them kosher prepackaged foods
Yes, but that's not always so easy.
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan: or stuff like grilled cheese sandwiches that were cooked in a skillet that wasn't used for meat or non-kosher foods?
NO. The cheese would have to be kosher (most brands aren't). So would the bread. (Ditto.) And the pan would have to be brand new or only ever used for kosher dairy foods.
I would not trust someone who had been antagonistic regarding my religious observance to cook for my kids. My former FIL (and former MIL, when she was alive) has always been fine, but his second wife has made repeated problems. At this point, we do still sometimes send the kids over, but only with lunches in tow and/or arrangements made for food to be procured from a kosher restaurant. But since we DO think it is important for the kids to see their grandparents, their dad arranges for frequent meals together (him, his father and stepmom, and the kids) at restaurants, which I support.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: NO. The cheese would have to be kosher (most brands aren't). So would the bread. (Ditto.) And the pan would have to be brand new or only ever used for kosher dairy foods.
That's what I was thinking. I should have phrased my question better.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Which I think goes a long way toward explaining the awfulness of the movie.
