posted
And by not exposing your child to a vaccine, you are "free-riding" off the other parents' kids who, hopefully for you, are getting vaccines in sufficient numbers to protect your child via herd immunity.
The only reason that the risk for getting a vaccinated disease is so low in the first place is because everyone else is taking the vaccine.
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quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I misspoke. I meant that statistics didn't seem to be kept in those particular stories. Maybe they were and the doctors/others just didn't mention it to the parents, but I think they should have mentioned it. If those incidents weren't reported, then the numbers would be off.
Parents (or patients, when we're talking about someone other than a small child) can call as well. And should if they believe the doctor has not, or may not have. There is both a paper form and a web form, as well as the 800 number.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: And if you decide that the known risk (however small) to your child from taking vaccines outweighs the risk that your child may be exposed to an illness then you must be a bad parent.
I don't think this is a fair way of framing the controversy. I agree with fugu on the dangers of avoiding vaccines - it's nothing personal. The stakes are higher than just one kid.
Not for me.
We haven't decided when or if we're going to vaccinate our daughter, so she doesn't go out much. It's been months, in fact, since I've taken her out of the house. And when I go out, I try to limit my own exposure to people and I wash my hands when I come home.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I misspoke. I meant that statistics didn't seem to be kept in those particular stories. Maybe they were and the doctors/others just didn't mention it to the parents, but I think they should have mentioned it. If those incidents weren't reported, then the numbers would be off.
Parents (or patients, when we're talking about someone other than a small child) can call as well. And should if they believe the doctor has not, or may not have. There is both a paper form and a web form, as well as the 800 number.
That's good to know. I'm glad to hear that information like that is being tracked. The thought of being one of those parents absolutely terrifies me.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:We haven't decided when or if we're going to vaccinate our daughter, so she doesn't go out much. It's been months, in fact, since I've taken her out of the house.
That's kind of sad.
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quote:Originally posted by Katarain: She's not even one yet. Why would she need to socialize with people other than her parents?
I was too hasty. At that age she obviously doesn't care, and isn't missing out on anything much. I'm sorry.
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It's okay. It actually is sad, but not for those reasons. I can't wait until I have a chance to let her go outside and play in the grass and the sun. (Unrelated illness in the family and my balancing being a full-time worker with full-time mother keep me from it.)
For now, I'm keeping her away from contagions as best I can, and seriously considering when and if to vaccinate.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: And if you decide that the known risk (however small) to your child from taking vaccines outweighs the risk that your child may be exposed to an illness then you must be a bad parent.
I don't think this is a fair way of framing the controversy. I agree with fugu on the dangers of avoiding vaccines - it's nothing personal. The stakes are higher than just one kid.
Not for me.
We haven't decided when or if we're going to vaccinate our daughter, so she doesn't go out much. It's been months, in fact, since I've taken her out of the house. And when I go out, I try to limit my own exposure to people and I wash my hands when I come home.
That's fine for most illnesses, but not for measles, which is truly airborne. A person in the prodromal stage of measles will have no visible symptoms and is just as contagious as someone with the full blown rash. AND you don't even have to be in the same room with them to be exposed. You can walk into a room that they were in up to two hours earlier, and your child will be exposed to measles. You won't even know about it until your baby gets sick.
My biggest problem with unvaccinated children is the risk to infants. New babies are fully protected with maternal antibody. That protection begins to wane around 6 months of age and is gone completely by the first birthday. MMR cannot be given until the 1st birthday (due precisely to interfering maternal antibody). So 10-12 month olds are at a very high risk of measles. If they're exposed during that vulnerable window, they're almost certainly going to get sick.
If more than 5% of a population is susceptible to measles, herd immunity is compromised, and every child older than 6 months who has not been vaccinated is at risk.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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Not to mention the risks to the elderly and immunocompromised, such as people in cancer therapy. Because it is carried for a good while without symptoms and is so very contagious, it can wipe through the most vulnerable in a community pretty quickly -- including all those 6-12 month babies who aren't protected. Having herd immunity by having older kids and adults vaccinated protects those babies, and the others, too.
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Measles is probably one of the ones that my pediatrician put on the top of the list to get vaccinated against. I think Meningitis was another--does that sound right?
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I wasn't aware there was a meningitis vaccine. Mumps, Whooping Cough, and now, Chicken Pox, are all pretty high on the list. Oh, and Tetanus. I'm good for another 5 years on the big T.
Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Whooping cough is very high up there, and one of the first vaccines you are supposed to get. It's not pretty. I vaccinate completely on schedule. None of the anti-vaccine "evidence" seemed at all credible to me....basically a combination of anecdotes, weak correlations, and fear.
I do look at these things one at a time, though. I don't do the flu vaccine because there doesn't seem to be a good "herd" reason to do so. (I can't think of vaccines in any other terms. Individual risk vs benefit depend too much on what other people are choosing to do.)
But while we're on the subject, what do you think of the chicken pox vaccine? I got it for my son but am having second thoughts about it. (My daughter isn't due for another 3 months.) I guess my concern is this: I got the chicken pox as a kid and it was no big deal. I stayed home from school for a week and my mom made sure I gave it to my little brother while it was going around. Now I'm protected. If I hadn't gotten it as a kid, it could have been deadly as an adult. So this vaccine, does it protect people for life or will it wear off just when it is actually dangerous to get the chicken pox?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I've seen a lot of vaccination conspiracy theory BS online, and it make me mad that these people feel like it's OK to endanger children in the name of their almost completely baseless fear-mongering.
Websites like that think twice are disgusting.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Whooping cough is very high up there, and one of the first vaccines you are supposed to get. It's not pretty. I vaccinate completely on schedule. None of the anti-vaccine "evidence" seemed at all credible to me....basically a combination of anecdotes, weak correlations, and fear.
I do look at these things one at a time, though. I don't do the flu vaccine because there doesn't seem to be a good "herd" reason to do so. (I can't think of vaccines in any other terms. Individual risk vs benefit depend too much on what other people are choosing to do.)
But while we're on the subject, what do you think of the chicken pox vaccine? I got it for my son but am having second thoughts about it. (My daughter isn't due for another 3 months.) I guess my concern is this: I got the chicken pox as a kid and it was no big deal. I stayed home from school for a week and my mom made sure I gave it to my little brother while it was going around. Now I'm protected. If I hadn't gotten it as a kid, it could have been deadly as an adult. So this vaccine, does it protect people for life or will it wear off just when it is actually dangerous to get the chicken pox?
I've seen someone with whooping cough. It's really not pretty. It also took about four visits to the emergency room for her to get diagnosed, because she had been vaccinated, and it's uncommon enough that many doctors haven't seen it. Which is dangerous in itself. If you catch a disease that doctors have trouble recognizing because they never see it, it will delay treatment. We all got emails at my college that a case of whooping cough had been diagnosed among students and that anyone with a cough that lasted more than a few days or that was violent etc should see a doctor immediately and advise them that you had been exposed.
The flu shot is a more personal decision in my opinion. There are many different types of flu, and the shot offered every year is based on which virus the experts think will be prevalent. The people it is really important for are people who are high risk, like those with compromised immune systems, asthma or other chronic breathing problems and the elderly. Children and otherwise healthy enough don't need the vaccine.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Katarain: My source is the stories on the http://www.thinktwice.com website.
I'm suggesting that based on those stories, a common trend is that nobody is keeping track. Read through the stories. I understand that even on the warnings for the vaccines, there are a small number of children who do die from them. My problem is how statistics don't seem to be kept on it when it actually happens. If no one keeps track, how do we know the numbers are accurate? How can we really assess the risk? And how many of those children could have been saved if the doctors had paid attention to the fact that the bad reactions started "right after" administration of the vaccine and treated accordingly? Instead, the children get more and more doses, because after all, vaccines never hurt anybody.
I said right after because it ranges from directly following to several days or weeks later in the stories I read.
ANY website who's FAQ page tells you that WHOOPING COUGH is NOT very dangerous in older children and/or adults should be one that you run away from as quickly as possible. Whooping Cough is a highly contagious, very dangerous illness which often requires hospitalization.
While it is true that the most dangerous side effects are more likely in very young children, you can still have major problems as an adult or older child with the disease. And whooping cough is making a comeback. It is showing up more often and impacting many more children and adults than it has in the recent past.
I don't argue that it must be the parents decision whether to immunize or not, but as more people choose not to immunize due to propaganda like this website, diseases which had been well contained are becoming more prevalent. Immunizations were developed for these diseases because they are dangerous, and difficult to treat. Many of them are still very difficult to treat. I'm not going to tell any parent that they MUST have their child immunized, but websites like this one are working from a false pretense. Immunization recommendations given by doctors have been developed out of years of study, and an understanding that diseases like these are difficult to treat and dangerous. This website and others like it are not using science to prove their points, and they are starting from a false hypothesis. They are assuming that immunizations are bad, and then gathering only information to support their theory.
posted
Christine, there's a booster for the chicken pox given to teens (or was my daughter 12? maui babe and CT probably know what age is recommended). It seems to do the trick, as far as studies so far show.
But keep in mind that while most kids who have chicken pox are fine (I definitely was), a not insignificant number require hospitalization (my baby brother, who caught it from me, almost did), and it can cause death.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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It's also important because only people who had chicken pox can get shingles as an adult. Shingles can be dangerous too, making the chicken pox vaccine more important in the long run.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I just want to back up and clarify some things here.
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I misspoke. I meant that statistics didn't seem to be kept in those particular stories. Maybe they were and the doctors/others just didn't mention it to the parents, but I think they should have mentioned it. If those incidents weren't reported, then the numbers would be off.
Parents (or patients, when we're talking about someone other than a small child) can call as well. And should if they believe the doctor has not, or may not have. There is both a paper form and a web form, as well as the 800 number.
rivka is right on here, and if she were not, it would not literally take years and large legal teams to digest the thousands of documents and millions of pages of AE reports (Adverse Experience reports in all their various forms - WAES, SRRs, MedWatch, etc.) put together by not only by federal agencies but drug companies, doctors, pharmaceutical representatives, consumers, etc., etc. I HAVE WORKED ON THESE LITIGATION CASES and have seen the huge quarterly reports that are compiled and submitted to the FDA as well as reports generated by searching for SPECIFIC conditions, ailments (chose whatever word you like). They have databases holding this information that only Jane could comprehend in their entirety. Everything is getting documented provided it is reported. I've seen the reports, I've redacted the medical privacy information, and not just reports in the US but from all over the world.
This ruling was not reached lightly. There was so much paper to sift through, it's rather boggling that they managed to reach one even now, despite the timing (years ago) of Wakefield's initial (and erroneous) conclusions.
I have worked at this firm for over five years, and the entire time it's been on product/personal injury litigation cases, and the first three years were spent on a vaccine case that had been going on for five years prior to my arrival according to coworkers.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Christine, there's a booster for the chicken pox given to teens (or was my daughter 12? maui babe and CT probably know what age is recommended). It seems to do the trick, as far as studies so far show.
But keep in mind that while most kids who have chicken pox are fine (I definitely was), a not insignificant number require hospitalization (my baby brother, who caught it from me, almost did), and it can cause death.
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize there was a booster. And if it cuts down on shingles, too, then that is compelling reason to go ahead and do it.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I believe that there is also a new shingles vaccine. However, it is meant for people of a specific age, who have had the chicken pox in the past (as you can't get shingles if you didn't have chicken pox). I know that I'm not considered old enough to get the vaccine for shingles yet (and I'll be 30 at the end of March) but I don't know at what age you should get it. If you're concerned about shingles and are interested in the vaccine you should speak to your doctor.
Also, just as chicken pox can be dangerous to very small children, it can be dangerous to adults who catch it too. I don't know if adults can get the chicken pox vaccine, but it wouldn't hurt to ask your doctor if you've never had it.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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The "think twice" website is not a good source. The FAQ is not reliable. It reccomends feeding your kid "wholesome foods" to get a vaccine that has already been administered to stop being effective.
This is not science. Wholesome foods are a good idea, but it has nothing to do with what the site claims it is an answer to.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'll just throw out some information on the chicken pox/shingles relationship. Chicken pox is caused by a strain of the herpes virus, and like most variations of herpes, once contracted you are infected for life. When attacked by your body's defenses, the chicken pox virus will retreat to a set of nerve bundles in your lower back, I believe. Severe stress or a depressed immune system can cause a flare up of the virus that results in shingles.
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Shingles can be very, very unpleasant. It can cause nerve damage that can be quite painful for months or years after the rash is gone and is very difficult to treat. It can also attack the eyes and cause problems, even blindness.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I'm thrilled about this ruling. Now maybe some money and publicity can go to things that will actually help children with autism (like ABA and PECS, etc.) and to getting more appropriate special needs programs in the public schools. Speech and language therapy isn't covered by most insurances and is very costly (we pay $100/hour). We're very fortunate to be able to afford it, but not many can. It would be so beneficial to so many families if they could get some assistance with that. Money and publicity are also needed for studies of other things that have been linked to autism (placenta previa, for example) and need further investigation.
FWIW, Aerin has an ASD diagnosis (though I will admit that it's controversial and she has 3 other diagnoses) and we had her vaccinated and we're having the twins vaccinated.
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My cousin died at age 3 from complications after chicken pox. (Reye's Syndrome. And no, she wasn't given aspirin.)
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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There was a nasty outbreak of whooping cough at my daughter's middle school just this year - I remember reading the letter the school sent home and being quite surprised. I guess it's easy to take those vaccinations for granted and think 'oh, whooping cough, who gets that in this day and age?'.
Also, I agree with Mrs. M, though I don't know if I'd use the word thrilled to describe my own reaction to this ruling. More like exasperated impatience.
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Also want to say that I agree with fugu's and CT's comments about herd immunity and vulnerable populations.
Actually a fair amount of pediatricians (including ours) feel he is being misleading with his analysis. A whole lot of this happens in situation B, which is somewhat similar on the surface to situation B, so maybe we should be careful.
Apparently a month or two ago in the AAP official magazine, a pediatrician refutes or applies some skepticism to Dr. Sears' claims.
So the fact that I'm pretty sure my eldest got the booster much later than age 6 is most likely because of when it became available?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I don't recall how old your children are, Rivka, but I do know that the varicella vaccine was not available prior to about 1998 or so. None of my children received it (my youngest was born in 1991), and my two youngest had CPOX in 1999 (right after their baby cousin received the vax - he spent many days with my poxed girls and did not get sick).
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:Originally posted by maui babe: I don't recall how old your children are, Rivka, but I do know that the varicella vaccine was not available prior to about 1998 or so.
I thought my almost-15 got it at 18 or 24 months. Which would be 1995 or -6.
At that point they were considering whether a booster would be necessary, but no guidelines had been established (IIRC what the pediatrician said). I think she got the booster at 12.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:She's not even one yet. Why would she need to socialize with people other than her parents?
To see the outdoors. People aren't meant to be cooped up in houses for months on end. They're meant to go outside, experience the natural world, breathe air not filled with household dust, see different faces and different places.
That is the reason. Please, take her outside!
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I've put off commenting on this for awhile, even though I started the topic. I mostly thought that it would be interesting to see what everyone else had to say on the topic, though I was sure it had been discussed (though not in light of the new information) before.
For the record, baby c is being vaccinated (though a month behind due to insurance complications) 100%. Especially the chicken pox vaccine. Even though I had the shortest case anybody had seen in our family (two days), my brother who caught it after me had it for six weeks. He had an awful case that progressed into his throat and ears as well as up his nose and his er...bottom. Had he not gotten better when he had, they were going to hospitalize him. I don't want her to have to go through that.
I will admit that although I am skeptical of baby c having so many vaccines so close together, I do not want her 'piggy-backing' on other children being vaccinated. I feel that it would be irresponsible of me to do that although I respect other's wishes to not vaccinate or to vaccinate off-schedule. That's their decision with their children and I think that's pretty personal.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Jul 1999
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The problem I have with other people not vaccinating is that it does not just affect them and their children. They are compromising herd immunity and there are definitely cases out there linked to weaknesses in herd immunity. When other people's decision endangers the life of the very old and very young (who can not be immunized), that is wrong.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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But scholarette, does herd immunity actually take precedence over your individual child? For instance, we do know that some complications do arise. For instance, in the flu vaccine, a few people become paralyzed. If you thought your child would be one of those, is the use of her limbs for the rest of her life less important than maintaining her portion of the herd immunity?
Do you know that vaccines also don't convey 100% immunity? Usually it's something like 85%. Herd immunity is mainly what they're doing, in fact, since individual immunity is somewhat spotty.
They don't tell us this, because they want us to all get immunized. In fact, I have had all my immunizations and I would probably get them all for my kids. But I don't at all fault people who look at their own kids' cost/benefit equation and decide not to.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: But scholarette, does herd immunity actually take precedence over your individual child? For instance, we do know that some complications do arise. For instance, in the flu vaccine, a few people become paralyzed. If you thought your child would be one of those, is the use of her limbs for the rest of her life less important than maintaining her portion of the herd immunity?
Do you know that vaccines also don't convey 100% immunity? Usually it's something like 85%. Herd immunity is mainly what they're doing, in fact, since individual immunity is somewhat spotty.
They don't tell us this, because they want us to all get immunized. In fact, I have had all my immunizations and I would probably get them all for my kids. But I don't at all fault people who look at their own kids' cost/benefit equation and decide not to.
Most of the vaccines I'm aware of are much more effective than that, especially with a booster. The MMR, which this thread is talking about, is something like 99.7% effective after the booster. (95% from first dose)
There is a definite right of the individual vs right of the society aspect to the vaccine debate but the trouble with your scenario is you don't KNOW whether your child will have a bad reaction or not. We know that a small percentage of people do react badly to vaccines but we don't know which ones. If we knew with any kind of certainty that your child would develop a serious complication from a vaccine, then I don't think anyone would have a problem with you abstaining. But that's not what happens. What happens is that people are afraid and decide not to vaccinate, when the odds are just the same as for anyone else that their kids will be fine. They weaken weaken overall immunity and their decision only works out so long as only a few people make this decision.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I have no problem with people who have a specific reason to avoid immunizations avoiding them. And the flu vaccine I think it is fine for anyone to pass on that. I think that healthy people choosing to avoid MMR is selfish. If the rest of the population did not immunize, then the percentages for complications would make immunization the clear cut best solution. It is only because of herd immunity that the small risk of immunization is worse then the risk of getting the disease. And someone who has a higher probablity of complication from immunization has to consider a much higher chance of getting the disease if they pass on immunization- esp since those people have worse risks if they get the disease.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote: There is a definite right of the individual vs right of the society aspect to the vaccine debate but the trouble with your scenario is you don't KNOW whether your child will have a bad reaction or not.
I don't understand the struggle of society vs the individual. If the vaccines are as effective as I think they are, then shouldn't the risk of non-vaccination only affect the parts of society that chose not to vaccinate?
What is the risk to vaccinated kids if my kid doesn't get vaccinated? How does that put the vaccinated part of society at risk?
Note: I believe in vaccinations and my kids are vaccinated. I just don't understand why I should feel threatened if some other family refuses to get vaccinated. More power to them.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Because, as has already been pointed out, infants cannot be vaccinated until they reach a certain age. If herd immunity is compromised then infants would be at a much higher risk than they are now. Not just infants whose parents choose not to vaccinate, but ALL infants born would be at risk.
Also, people who have compromised immunity like cancer patients would be placed at risk, or mothers of unborn children. Like me...I was never vaccinated for rubella...don't know why, just wasn't. It was discovered in routine bloodwork when I was pregnant. As it was, I had little to fear because of heard immunity. I simply carried my baby to term, and then was vaccinated after her birth so it would not be an issue in future pregnancies.
Had I contracted rubella while pregnant, the consequences on my child could have been devastating. Fortunately, herd immunity worked for me. The more people who refuse to vaccinate, the more people in the population are put at risk. Not just the ones who choose not to vaccinate, but others in the population as well.
Not to mention the other costs to society...in medical care and medicines to treat diseases that are easily preventable with vaccines. Vaccinating a child against whooping cough is a lot cheaper than treating that child for whooping cough in the emergency room. High medical costs affect us all...not just the people who are sick.
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