posted
I'm not a fan of Twilight, let's get that out of the way from the start. I can respect it for being successful, but I have no love for the story or the writer. For the longest time I hated what Twilight did to the Young Adult literature. Every where you turned there was a new YA paranormal romance starring a brooding vampire with a cardboard thin personality. But recently, I found two series of books that have rekindled my faith in YA literature, and even with vampires as the main focus. Thought I'd share.
The House of Night series by P.C. Cast & Kristin Cast sucked me in from the beginning and kept me coming back. I read through the entire series that's out so far in about two weeks.
And The Morganville Vampires series by Rachel Caine. This series actually throws vampires back into the role of *Bad Guy* instead of brooding hero, which was a pleasant change.
Give 'em a check sometime, especially if you're looking for life after Twilight.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
According to a meta-extention of twilight's own paranormal theory, there should soon be a humongous upswelling in werewolf literature to keep the vampire literature population in check.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
It was Ann Rice and Joss Whedon who started this whole trend of the emo Vampire. Really, Stephenie Meyer is their fault.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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As for Stephenie Meyer, I think she's a victim of Romeo and Juliet syndrome. She's so invested in star-crossed lovers that she missed why vampire fans really love vampires: its the danger. I never believed for a second that Edward would ever be slightly tempted to eat Bella. Evil!Edward would have been awesome though.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
When I was a kid, well, Vampires killed people.
They sucked their blood, spat out their souls, and we thanked them for it.
In my day the vamps sucked up all the virgins. That's why we did that free love thing in the 60's. Not for "Love" or "Peace" but to save the gals from the vampires.
In my day, the only way to kill a vampire was to stake it with virgin pine, cut off his head, stick 3 cloves of garlic down its bleeding neck, and then set the whole body on fire with 10 gallons of high octane heavily leaded gasoline.
And even then the dang thing would come back in the sequel.
You kids and your sparkly emo-vamps make me sick.
Now get off my lawn!
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I think y'all are missing the point that the Twilight vampires are not vampires first. The vampire thing is a tool, and one she adapted for her purpose. You're acting like the tool was the point.
You want her to tell a different story. I see that a lot - getting mad at shows and books because they don't tell the story you want to hear.
That's nonsense. You want that story? Write your own. You don't want to read the story the author/creator told? Then don't. This isn't difficult.
---------
Same for "who would beat Edward Cullen in a fight". They are fighting the wrong battle - Edward was intended to be a lover, not a fighter. Put the three vampires up to the general public and figure who would get picked as favorite lover, and Edward would leave them in the dust.
It's funny how Twilight is forcing all these other stories to define themselves against it. One method is to bash it outright. Another is to change the venue of competition. None of them matter to the Twilight Juggernaut, because it was never intended to belong to the world of vampire fiction in the first place. I suspect that's part of why it's done well.
Hate it as a love story, you've got a legitimate beef. Hate it as a vampire story, and you're missing the point.
1) Twilight has become the most popular stories centered on vampires. So if I write my own several people respond, "That's not a vampire story--the vampire doesn't sparkle like they are supposed to."
2) We can argue against her choice of theme to use as a love story center. She choose Vampire, because they are sexy and mysterious and epitomize the abstinence only education we wish on all our teen daughters. However the vampire by its nature is usually the opposite of abstinence only. They usually devour their loves, use them and leave them rotting husks or mindless pawns. That is a more interesting love story.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Neither of those are problems. She hasn't crippled your ability to write, and I don't have sympathy for complaints that her telling her story makes it harder for you to tell yours. Secondly, you don't actually know why she chose vampire. You have chosen to impose motivations upon her, but you don't know. So you are making up motivations for her and then criticizing her for them. That's just wishful thinking.
quote:However the vampire by its nature is usually the opposite of abstinence only.
You know they aren't real, right? That there is no such thing as a vampire's true nature?
That's just trying to make your version of the story the true one. Since vampires aren't real, that's really funny.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
It seems like anything that teenage girls like gets immediately blasted whether it is good or not. Of course this is often justified since many such things are nothing but shallow fads but in this case, I disagree.
Oh, I agree that anyone that went into a movie theater or picked up a book expecting a "Vampire" story or horror story was going to come out disappointed. That doesn't change the fact that anyone that is NOT looking for a typical vampire story and loves a good romance will find find the series quite compelling.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Hate it as a love story, you've got a legitimate beef. Hate it as a vampire story, and you're missing the point.
I'd like to point out that quite a few people who have problems with Twilight DO in fact hate it as a love story. I am one of them.
I think it is at its heart a story about obsession. Bella is so obsessed with Edward her obsession consumes her. Witness the "chapters" after Edward leaves her that are just blank pages - showing that her entire existence is about him and when he is gone she is nothing. That is a dangerous, disturbing message to send - this is upheld as an "ideal" love and I find it nothing even close to ideal. I find it dangerous and scary. And sad - that a girl would think love is losing your entire sense of self and subsuming your own personality into his. No thank you.
Edward is controlling, a stalker, and downright creepy even putting aside the vampire thing. So I would say my objection to Twilight has nothing to do with being disappointed with the type of vampire he is, but rather the type of boyfriend his character portrays. Not exactly the type of boyfriend I want my daughters to have someday.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Oh, I didn't. Sorry if it came off that way.
The Twilight thing just pushes my buttons...I dearly love young adult literature, and think some of the best writers anywhere are writing in that genre....and to have Twilight be the torchbearing work for the genre right now depresses me.
And to see so many middle school students carrying the books arond and mooning over Edward and talking about how they would be happy if they would "just find their Edward" makes me incredibly sad.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: And to see so many middle school students carrying the books arond and mooning over Edward and talking about how they would be happy if they would "just find their Edward" makes me incredibly sad.
How much do you think the books build up this sort of romantic nonsense vs. just recognize and distill the moony stuff that's going on with teenage girls anyway?
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think scifibum has a point. It's the grown women mooning over Edward et al that creep me out.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Why can't I just hate it for any reason that seems convenient?
You can, it's a free board.
But I find hating any art form for reasons other than the art itself to be a shame. Belle has legitimate problems with the work itself, (reasons I actually agree with but that didn't stop me from enjoying the series) and that is fine. But hating it because it's popular or because it inconveniences your own writing or other such things seems rather shallow to me.
Wagner was a despicable human being, but I can still respect his music.
80's music has been vilified over the last few decades but if you can make the effort to be objective, some of it was really quite good and innovative.
I had no desire to read the twilight series since I'm not particularly fond of vampire stories but I was out of work, bored and my roommate had the series and insisted I read them. To my surprise, I actually enjoyed them. Though I admit, I think the first movie told the story much better than the book did.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
"They usually devour their loves, use them and leave them rotting husks or mindless pawns"
Considering how consumed Belle becomes with Edward, this description actually fits the story. It just is disguised as a good thing.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
It's not just teenage girls though, who swoon over Edward. I've seen a disturbingly vast number of middle-aged mom's who are more avid about the series than some of the teens. I had an ex-girlfriend once explain the nature of Edwards love and it came across as sounding like how you'd excuse domestic abuse. "It doesn't count as hurting her if he loves her and is just trying to protect her." I remained unconvinced.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
The modern male in America (and in much of the West) has developed a neutered personality as a result of gender integration in the work place. Work environments had to be made safe for women which meant instituting policy and practices aimed at reigning in "maleness." But of course there is no way for a man to just leave the sort of personality a male is required to carry around the work place back in the office: it necessarily infects a man's whole being and he consequently becomes to his wive/girlfriend/women in general a neutered being lacking the male dynamism to which the feminine is instinctively drawn. No wonder grown women are obsessing over Edward Cullen and the Twilight story: they see in Edward Cullen the male dynamism they so long for in their husbands and in Bella the submissive position they'd rather assume if only their men were worth submitting to.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
Mooning over Edward . . . hmmmm. There was a hefty crowd of young adults -both sexes- in the theater with the latest flick absolutely going bonkers every time Jacob appeared on screen. Booing Edward. Making clucking noices at Bella.
Common sense hasn't completely died. *grin*
Except perhaps for Jacob, continuing to moon after Bella.
*BOOK SPOILER ALERT*
I have no idea how the movie makers (and the readers and movie-goers) will deal with the creepiest aspect of it all, though -- that wierd werewolf "bonding" with little girls (or half-girls), and "waiting" for them to grow up . . . *shudder*
That's gonna cause some interesting stinkums, if you ask me . . . especially given certain past practices, given up or not.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Isn't the point that Jacob won't fill the role of lover until later in her life, and is more or less just a guardian figure until that time occurs? I'm sure they'll find a way to tone it down or twist it to make it more acceptable. Team Jacob would flip out if their idol lost his happy ending.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
Yeah, but its the going from a position of "guardianship" to a position of "lover" that freaks me out. He'll be an authority figure during her developing years which has some serious squick-worthy issues. But the ending also implied she wouldn't have a choice. In my head, the girl grows up, hates Jacob, and kicks him to the curb in favor of a guy who treats her like an equal, respects her independence, and has an actual personality.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shanna: But the ending also implied she wouldn't have a choice. In my head, the girl grows up, hates Jacob, and kicks him to the curb in favor of a guy who treats her like an equal, respects her independence, and has an actual personality.
I didn't get that at all. The impression I got is that the women do have a choice but why would they chose someone else when the guy that imprinted on them would always be exactly what she needed? It's the guy that is having all his choices taken from him.
Posts: 891 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
I don't know about other people, but I could not date/marry a guy who did everything I wanted them to. For example, it'd be cool to date a guy who had the same taste in music as me but only if he liked it for his own personal reasons, not because I liked it. I have a couple of gal pals married to really submissive husbands and its painful for me to watch them interact. I watch these girls demand more and more, waiting for the guy to stand up and say "no."
This is probably why I prefer "Pride and Prejudice" to "Twilight." There's something much more romantic about a guy who is devoted to a girl even when she's brazenly independent or has some irritating character traits, etc. There's something powerful about loving someone even if the relationship isn't perfect. People in real life fight over radio stations, where to live, in-laws, etc. Conflict is part of the real world, but its uncommon to find someone who can rise above it for you.
There's nothing romantic to me about loving a guy just because he does everything I ask or enjoys everything I enjoy because I enjoy it.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I love this team jacob / team edward stuff. i wish i had come up with team necrophilia / team bestiality.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:I don't know about other people, but I could not date/marry a guy who did everything I wanted them to. For example, it'd be cool to date a guy who had the same taste in music as me but only if he liked it for his own personal reasons, not because I liked it. I have a couple of gal pals married to really submissive husbands and its painful for me to watch them interact. I watch these girls demand more and more, waiting for the guy to stand up and say "no."
Now this I completely agree with. I tend not to worry about the implications of people's fantasies. I don't think most people are idiots and will recover fine from their swooning. And Edward, as awful as he is, seems less damaged and crappy at relationships than Ender, who was MY stupid, impossible teenage fantasy.
But boring I can't forgive. I read Twilight about a year before the whole thing exploded and with no preconceptions - it was given to me to read by my adorable almost-mother-in-law - and so I can remember exactly what I thought: Edward is completely boring.
I dated someone once who put me as his whole world in a similar way, minus the domineering stuff. It was not fun - turns out that I am with myself all the time, so being with someone whose only interest was myself was way more self-indulgent than I enjoyed.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Right. Edward and Bella are the type of couple to go:
"Where do you want to eat?"
"I don't know. Where do you want to eat?"
Ad infinitum.
If Edward ate, anyway.
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The thing that bothers me most about the Jacob/Renesmee issue is wondering when, exactly, he switches from guardian to boyfriend? What's he going to say?
"Sorry, Ren, honey, but were not doing anything inappropriate until you're eighteen."
Then she throws a fit because she's, you know, thirteen and wants to play kissy-face with a real boy, and what's a guy to do when he's had his freedom of choice taken away?
This is something I really wish Meyer had thought out more carefully.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Well, if it is need based (versus want), then you could argue he wouldn't be able to take advantage of her because that isn't what she needs.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Isn't the plot of Twilight essentially about a girl that struggles with necrophilia and bestiality?
I will admit I read all four books. They were far from the best books I've read, but they are young adult novels.
I think we could actually blame J.K. Rowling. Rowling took the supernatural and made it relatable to children. Werewolves, wizards, centaurs, giant spiders, giant snakes, giants, and witches became cool. Once the Harry Potter craze took hold, other authors wanted to capitalize on the fad. Then came Percy Jackson, Twilight, The Vampire Diaries, and all of the other supernatural YA fiction in bookstores now.
I went into Border's on Saturday and was amazed at the amount of trash I saw on the shelves of the YA section. It seems like 90% of the books are about vampires, werewolves, or wizards.
I did see one book that looked pretty interesting though. Has anyone read "The Hunger Games?" I was thinking of picking it up but all they had was the hardcover, and I'd rather read the paperback.
As for vampires Post-Twilight, I don't want pretty boy emo vampires. I want ruthless, urge driven, murderous vampires that jump you when you aren't expecting it and tear your limbs off while they suck your blood.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
All of which says you are looking for vampires. Meyer's hero is a lover first and a vampire incidentally. It simply isn't the same kind of story.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Geraine, I know a lot of people who think Hunger Games is awesome - me, I couldn't get past the fact that it was written in present tense. It drove me crazy. It felt contrived, and very awkward.
That may not be a problem for you, but I wanted to make you aware of it. If you're like me and can't stand that type of writing ("Oh, if I make it present tense it will feel so real! and heighten the suspense!" ) you may not want to spend the money on it.
To be fair, my daughter (17 years old) loved it and the present tense thing didn't bother her.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: All of which says you are looking for vampires. Meyer's hero is a lover first and a vampire incidentally. It simply isn't the same kind of story.
I guess that is my problem with it. The vampires in Meyer's book had feelings. I want vampires that are more feral, though I know traditionally they have been portrayed as having a certain sophistication to them.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Hate it as a love story, you've got a legitimate beef. Hate it as a vampire story, and you're missing the point.
I'd like to point out that quite a few people who have problems with Twilight DO in fact hate it as a love story. I am one of them.
I think it is at its heart a story about obsession. Bella is so obsessed with Edward her obsession consumes her. Witness the "chapters" after Edward leaves her that are just blank pages - showing that her entire existence is about him and when he is gone she is nothing. That is a dangerous, disturbing message to send - this is upheld as an "ideal" love and I find it nothing even close to ideal. I find it dangerous and scary. And sad - that a girl would think love is losing your entire sense of self and subsuming your own personality into his. No thank you.
Edward is controlling, a stalker, and downright creepy even putting aside the vampire thing. So I would say my objection to Twilight has nothing to do with being disappointed with the type of vampire he is, but rather the type of boyfriend his character portrays. Not exactly the type of boyfriend I want my daughters to have someday.
Also, it is a "love" where she does not have to do anything. No messy sex - or messy human body anything. She doesn't have to put up with any human frailty She can behave badly - doesn't matter. It is extraordinarily selfish.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
It isn't fair to blame J.K. Rowling for the annoying books that have gotten published in YA. Her books were good.
I liked The Hunger Games and really liked the Gregor the Overlander series also written by Suzanne Collins. Though the Gregor books are more middle grade than YA if you're specifically looking for YA.
Posts: 399 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I really enjoyed Hunger Games and myself and the rest of my bookstore coworkers are very much looking forward to the third book which comes out this summer. The present tense does take some getting used to, but the cliffhanger at the end of every chapter makes it hard to put down. I'd also recommend The Maze Runner by Daschner (hope I spelled that right.) It's like Lord of Flies meets Lost. The Uglies series by Westerfeld starts off well, though I wasn't as impressed by the sequels.
None of those are YA vampire books though, but there is decent stuff out there for teens. But I spent a few years reading YA when I was a preteen in the mid-nineties so supernatural isn't a new thing. Just another fad that will eventually fade and die before making another comeback during the next decade.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I actually read and enjoyed all the Twilight books, despite their flaws (and the idea of any girls basing their concept of the perfect guy off stalker-Edward is disturbing). Still, the oversaturation of vampire romance is kind of irritating and I'm wondering when we're gonna finally see the craze die (I'm hoping that that soon we'll have a huge emo-vampire backlash and get hit with stories with old-school PURE EVIL vampires).
Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
I'm not going to condemn a fantasy of wanting to be loved unconditionally. That's why it's a fantasy. It's very harsh to call someone selfish for wanting to be loved without being forced to perform, have sex before she's ready, or contort to someone else's expectations.
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A friend whose taste I respect (and who is a clever, published writer) recommended Hunger Game to me last night. I may need to put it on the list.
posted
Hunger Games was definitely an exciting read and a great idea. I found it very hard to put down. The second book was IMO not as pure as the first, and exposed what I thought was a bit of a stock universe that the author hadn't ever rendered in enough detail. I was actually a bit disappointed at the direction she took the plot. But I'll read the third book when it comes out. Gotta see what happens.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: It was Ann Rice and Joss Whedon who started this whole trend of the emo Vampire. Really, Stephenie Meyer is their fault.
posted
As far as young adult writers go, William Sleator will always be my favorite. And I did read a few Darren Shan vampire apprentice books before the whole Twighlight thing happened. Looking back, those weren't all that great, but I remember a time when vampires weren't cool. I miss then
My little sister read Hunger Games, and said it was great.
Posts: 856 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I've only read the first Twilight book, and have no interest in the rest. I'll say this, however: it really is a true vampire story. Look at all the people in this thread saying Edward and Bella's relationship is squicky: that's great, that's exactly how a vampire story should make you feel.
It's just that all the sexual kink is sublimated. This story is no less creepy and twisted than Bram Stoker. Twilight hits all the proper notes, thematically.
The quality of the writing is an issue, of course, but come on: they are YA. It isn't meant to be compared against Salmon Rushdie or Thomas Pynchon.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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