Fantasy (includes Samurai's) Science Fiction Thriller Detective/Investigative.
I liked Lain as the sorta scifi cyberpunkt mind buggery sorta thing but I think its a kinda far extreme, like I like Anime's that by the end I sorta at least understand whats going on neh? And not require a 12 person discussion group to flesh out the meaning.
Death Note the first half of it is my all time favorite anime, has every automatic gold star; consistent rules and no cliche's, I liked the second half in the same way an alcoholic claims to like alcohol but i felt it wasn't quite as impressive as the first half, the first half kept you guessing the second half the massive amounts of foreboding pretty much spelled it out for you.
Every Hayao Miyazaki film that I saw I enjoyed but not necessarily because I liked the message or genre but because they were works of art in pacing and story telling that I didn't have to already like the genre behind the particular movie to enjoy it.
I like the Gundam franchises in the sense their military thrillers, like Appleseed for example but sometimes I feel they spend so much time on WAR IS BAD soap boxes, I like GundamSeed and GundamWing for differing reasons but military thriller is pretty much why.
I saw hikaru no go, I liked it very much. I liked FMA for its story telling and consistency in its 'magic' but i HATED the cliches.
Im liking flame of recca its similar enough to Kenshin, and I liked Kenshin as well.
But ya, anyone have a good sampling of animes without or at least a minimal amount of cliches?
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Well, I dunno about lacking cliche, but Cowboy Bebop is always to be recommended, to both anime fans and non-anime fans alike.
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is glorious fun, and the first episode, in fact, takes the time to riff pretty much every cliche in the entirety of anime. The rest is a lovely, rather unique story, and I can't wait for the second season.
Black Lagoon, while violent, basically takes the Hollywood action movie, and distills all the cool parts of them into a 12 episode series. Not lacking in cliches so much as... taking those cliches, and gleefully using them to their very best. Not to mention most violent.
Paranoia Agent is a very good, mature anime series. It's a show for adults, not children.
Revolutionary Girl Utena is... too different to really, you know, fit any "cliches." It's good. But it's also incredibly surreal. In a unique manner.
The movie version even moreso.
Cue indication of massive, monolithic understatement.
Let's just say that for the Utena movie, a 12 person discussion group attempting to flesh out the meaning will get about this far:
"... what"
And be stuck on that, without any ability to proceed. So just watch the series, as it's odd, yes, but not AS odd.
Gunslinger Girls is a pretty series, with a very sad premise, that makes good on the heart breaking nature of the premise.
Honestly, I sometimes think the entire goal of that series is to make you, the viewer, suicidally depressed.
Speaking of that, Here and Now, There and Then, I've heard, is about as non-cliche'd as you can get. At least, after the first episode, anyway. I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard it described as quite intense.
Noir is something I'm finding fairly entertaining. Assassins and so forth.
I'll think about some more, later.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: tears the size of waterfalls coming from the characters eyes and all things like it are a BLIGHT on the world.
See, I'm no student of anime, but from my limited exposure, it seems like the entire art form depends on deliberate exaggeration.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Monster - Genius surgeon saves psycho kid from death, psycho kid grows up to be psycho serial killer, genius surgeon becomes less-than-sane vigilante. Has an awesome detective chasing their asses all around europe. Awesome character development.
Saikano - Devestating war makes Japan have the bright idea of transforming a high school girl into an abominable war machine. She and her boyfriend try to run away and live together as long as they can. Depressing.
Code Geass - High school comedy/political thriller/military tactic/mecha. Awesome character development. The protagonist is tragic, Machiavellian, ruthless, probably evil, and yet he is most definitely the good guy. Unlike a lot of mecha anime I've watched, this one is less about overpowering mechs that can mow down the bad guys like Rambo, and more about the protagonist's tactical genius. Some of the things that he plans is unbelievable and awesome. WARNING: character design is by CLAMP. Everyone looks anorexic.
Gundam 00 - I personally think it's better than Gundam Wing. Also harps on the "war is bad" theme, but this time they sometimes showcase the hypocrisy of trying to stop war by fighting in gigantic war machines.
I also recommend Gunslinger Girl, Noir, Paranoia Agent and Cowboy Bebop.
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I definitely second Black Lagoon. Monster was good, but be warned, it's ~75 episodes long (I think 43 minute long episodes too, though I may be mistaken on that).
The most recent one that I've watched that REALLY sticks out is Bokurano. It may very well be the best anime that I've seen to date.
I was also a very huge fan of Elfen Lied. It contains some nudity, and lots of violence, but it has a solid story and characters that I liked. It contains one or two cliches, but nothing deal breaking.
All of the above are definitely serious Animes not suitable for children.
Edit: Bokurano is technically a giant robot Anime, which is a HUGE cliche, BUT it doesn't really focus on it. In fact, I would almost consider it nothing more than a catalyst to bring the characters together to give them an excuse to tell their stories, which are FANTASTIC.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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The first anime I saw that actually made me look deeper into the style... that showed me that anime can be made lacking even the barest trace of the traditional anime tropes (sweatdrops, nosebleeds, etc.)... was Berserk.
I watched fansubs and Hong Kong subs, and I have never seen the dub, so I can't speak to the quality of that. Also, in my opinion, the first episode is pretty lousy. But overall I think it's a truly spectacular show. And probably right up your alley.
I'll also second Cowboy Bebop.
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The problem with Berserk is that they didn't finish it... the ending just kinda fades away. Apparently, you have to read the Manga to get the rest of the story.
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I like G Gundam. It's less about war than it is about one on one tournament style combat, but it also gets a little wacky with the subplot stuff.
You MIGHT like Blue Gender. I don't remember what the twist at the end was, but it's somethinga long the lines of Earth being taken over by aliens and they send gundam type mechs down to fight them or something. I remember liking it.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Berserk is a pretty dark manga, now I wish I had watched past the first episode of the anime.
I'll third Cowboy Bebop.
You might consider trying Orphen. Freelance magician with a haunted past, who is still developing his powers, who travels with an apprentice and a girl who wants to ditch her boring life. I watched about 5 episodes and found it to be quite enjoyable. Blockbuster only had one DVD which is why I stopped watching.
I also recommend Hellsing, not to be confused with the movie Van Helsing. It's yet another good vampire versus bad vampires show with the good guy even being named Alucard. But Seras Victoria and Hellsing himself sold me on the show, especially when they finally show Hellsing get down to business.
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I second Blue Gender, I've only seen parts of the first season, But I really enjoyed what I saw.
I really like Wolf's Rain, it's a post-apocalyptic story where the main protagonists are a group of wolves who blend in with human society as they search for paradise.
Ghost in the shell is pretty good, Cyberpunk story of a team of nine special agents.
I've been watching Bleach as well, I like the weapon fighting, but recently it feels like it's becoming more like DBZ sometimes (No, I do not like DBZ). I liked the earlier episodes that seemed more episodic than having an arc format.
On the subject of Death Note, I absolutely loved the ending. It seemed very fitting.
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Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, yes, is a definite must.
So I second that one.
As for the teardrops and so forth... come on. That's not cliche! That's just the convention of the medium, for crying out loud.
Now, by cliche, I thought you meant things like "loser boy ends up with harem of incredibly beautiful women" or "young girl gets cute item, plays dress up with superpowers, and travels around gathering items for a monster-of-the-week format." (Granted, CCS is good, being a CLAMP work, but the copycats are too common.)
Anyway, I'd also recommend Trigun. Early on, the show is instead "The Wacky Adventures of Vash and Friends" but as time goes on, things get dark, serious, and heart breaking.
Hmm. Serious anime all seems to be terribly depressing, ne?
Also: Which ending of Death Note was meant? The manga ending was truly lovely. The anime ending... not so much.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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There should just be a freestanding list of recommendations for Anime somewhere on this board that we can point people to. Seems like whenever someone asks for anime recommendations, regardless of the criteria offered, the same core group of animes is recommended, and then a few others are tossed on top depending on the specific criteria someone asks for. Seems like most people just toss out their favorites over and over again.
Oh, and I have to second Megabyte on the difference between cliche and medium. It's the format dude, it's not a cliche. Cliches are all the damned series that involve giant fighting robots. That's done to death, even though yes, you CAN find some great animes among those, so cliches aren't automatically bad. But saying you don't like the teardrops or what not is like saying you don't like the giant eyes they have. It's just the artistic style.
Besides, if not for the giant eyed main characters and the tiny black dotted throwaway characters, how would you know who to pay attention to?
(And as for Trigun, I agree there too, the early episodes ARE the wacky adventures of Vash and friends, but they're hilarious! It gets a lot more serious later on, and less funny, but I think what it trades off in comedy it gains in dramatic quality)
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: Also: Which ending of Death Note was meant? The manga ending was truly lovely. The anime ending... not so much.
The anime ending, to be honest, I've never touched a manga in my life.
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Blayne Bradley
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Among my group of friends when it comes to anime we call what you consider an "artistic style" a cliche, which me and a friend of mine absolutely hate as they're utterly pointless, distract from the story, gimmicky, not funny once you turn 16 and taint what was until then a good anime. Me and a friend of mine agree that Full Metal Alchemist would have been better without it. Anime directors don't seem to understand what makes something funny for young adult audiences and how adding those "cliches" detracts from the experience in my humble opinion.
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Oh baby... you asked the right silver tree. *huge anime buff who's seen hundreds of shows*
Ok best series I've seen and highly recommend:
Noein Ergo Proxy Gunslinger Girl Rah Xephon Black Lagoon Ghost in the Shell (all movies and seasons) Kiddy Grade (dumb title but show was actually cool) Gunsword Full Metal Alchemist Cowboy Beebop Elfen Lied Evangelion Gantz FLCL Last Exile Now and Then, Here and There Trigun Eureka 7 Wolf's Rain Paranoia Agent Red Garden Deathnote Stellvia Zegapain
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Neon Genesis Evangelion is probably the best anime EVER. Some might quibble at that title, but they will admit it's one of the best. It starts off like a cliche anime...but transforms over the episodes into one of the darkest and emotional shows out there, as the characters are stripped bare as the world comes to an end. The stakes cannot be higher...the fate of God and Man.
The show seriously changed anime forever. Many shows tried to copy it... very few succeeded.
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For anime movies try: AKIRA Metropolis Vampire Hunter D I & II Blue Sub 6 (actually a 4 part miniseries and one of the first shows to attepmt to blend CGI) Grave of the Fireflies And anything by Hayao Miyazaki
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quote:by Lyrhawn:But saying you don't like the teardrops or what not is like saying you don't like the giant eyes they have. It's just the artistic style.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Among my group of friends when it comes to anime we call what you consider an "artistic style" a cliche, which me and a friend of mine absolutely hate as they're utterly pointless, distract from the story, gimmicky, not funny once you turn 16 and taint what was until then a good anime. Me and a friend of mine agree that Full Metal Alchemist would have been better without it. Anime directors don't seem to understand what makes something funny for young adult audiences and how adding those "cliches" detracts from the experience in my humble opinion.
A) Most shows that use those stylizations are intended for children or younger teenagers, not young adults.
B) In FMA, they serve to remind us that the characters fit into that age group. The childish comedy accentuates the tragedy that surrounds the character by reminding us that these events are happening to children.
C) You don't seem to understand that other cultures have different standards for humor than you do.
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Blayne Bradley
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I think when it comes to Anime it has become well beyond artistic style and into what constitutes a cliche in how the characters behave, its an annoying thing to have to watch.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Among my group of friends when it comes to anime we call what you consider an "artistic style" a cliche, which me and a friend of mine absolutely hate as they're utterly pointless, distract from the story, gimmicky, not funny once you turn 16 and taint what was until then a good anime. Me and a friend of mine agree that Full Metal Alchemist would have been better without it. Anime directors don't seem to understand what makes something funny for young adult audiences and how adding those "cliches" detracts from the experience in my humble opinion.
A) Most shows that use those stylizations are intended for children or younger teenagers, not young adults.
B) In FMA, they serve to remind us that the characters fit into that age group. The childish comedy accentuates the tragedy that surrounds the character by reminding us that these events are happening to children.
C) You don't seem to understand that other cultures have different standards for humor than you do.
You would be right if you weren't wrong. The best way to describe anime's targeted age group is schizophrenic and further accentuates my point. Some animes even the serious ones obviously by "our" standards meant for an older audience will have what I consider to be a stupid "cliche".
Falling down in an exaggerated manner, huge tear rivers, faces changing from "normal" to absurd based on emotions, these are not artistic styles in my view they are gimmicky cliches designed to test how much we the audience are willing to tolerate slog, they are a cheap attempt at humor when the writers can't figure out some other way to be funny. I visibly cringe whenever a cliche is shown and my enjoyment level drops like a stone until the show stops distracting me from what is actually good about whatever I am currently watching.
Full Metal Alchemist was a good show it had a serious tone, a strong plot its story telling was well paced and top notch and I genuinely liked the characters and as an added bonus no 10 year old girls casting ultima without having to sacrifice her soul to Atropus.
But every time a "cliche" appeared my stomach churned in disgust. I want to be entertained and given thought provoking substance not forced to fast forward past the immaturity.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: You would be right if you weren't wrong. The best way to describe anime's targeted age group is schizophrenic and further accentuates my point. Some animes even the serious ones obviously by "our" standards meant for an older audience will have what I consider to be a stupid "cliche".
Falling down in an exaggerated manner, huge tear rivers, faces changing from "normal" to absurd based on emotions, these are not artistic styles in my view they are gimmicky cliches designed to test how much we the audience are willing to tolerate slog, they are a cheap attempt at humor when the writers can't figure out some other way to be funny. I visibly cringe whenever a cliche is shown and my enjoyment level drops like a stone until the show stops distracting me from what is actually good about whatever I am currently watching.
Full Metal Alchemist was a good show it had a serious tone, a strong plot its story telling was well paced and top notch and I genuinely liked the characters and as an added bonus no 10 year old girls casting ultima without having to sacrifice her soul to Atropus.
But every time a "cliche" appeared my stomach churned in disgust. I want to be entertained and given thought provoking substance not forced to fast forward past the immaturity.
The one thing about your point though is that it's all subjective.
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While I disagree with Blayne regarding just how terrible the traditional anime style is, I do want to point out that there are several animes out there with nary a sweatdrop to be found, and relatively small eyes to boot. So, while you may disagree with him, it's still possible to recommend shows that fit his criteria.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: Neon Genesis Evangelion is probably the best anime EVER. Some might quibble at that title, but they will admit it's one of the best. It starts off like a cliche anime...but transforms over the episodes into one of the darkest and emotional shows out there, as the characters are stripped bare as the world comes to an end. The stakes cannot be higher...the fate of God and Man.
The show seriously changed anime forever. Many shows tried to copy it... very few succeeded.
The way Bokurano was introduced to me was: "If you liked Evangelion, you'll absolutely love this." Sure enough, I did. What I liked more about Bokurano was that it gave you more characters to relate to. In Evangelion, if you couldn't relate to Shinji in some way, then you didn't really have much reason to watch it. The characters in this one are more realistic IMO.
Also, it reminds me a small bit of Ender's Game, as the premise of the story is that a group of 15 kids are tricked into saving the world. Of course, they learn about it much faster in this series, but they can't escape it even if they want to.
Even if you don't like it better than Evangelion as I did, I still you'll like it Telp. Look it up. Also note, I heard that it almost wasn't aired in Japan because it was too depressing... it might just be...
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I too think Blayne is confusing artistic style with cliche, but I understand why he wouldn't like anime with those artistic styles.
Anime is varied enough in artistic style to recommend plenty of anime without over-exaggerated expressions, teardrops and waterfall crying.
Posts: 80 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Berserk is good, but... Don't watch the last episode if you're feeling down. Or you think you easily could be feeling down. Or...
Actually, there's a point in the penultimate episode where if you say, "Hmm, I imagine from here things could go really, really badly," you'd be pretty much correct... And you might spare yourself some dismay. Think of the shape the hero is in at the beginning of the first episode and connect the dots.
Though the outtakes from the official English version are quite fun. (The voice actor for Griffith has a tendency to burst into show tunes, and he has a wicked sense of humor.)
Not exactly anime, but much of the content of The Animatrix is far, far better than the live action movies that followed it. Peter Chung (of Aeon Flux fame) has a particularly good segment.
I quite liked Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Blayne -
I don't know. It seems your complaint boils down to "why can't Japanese animation be more like American animation?"
Also I think you are confusing style with cliche.
I would like to see you find a single american cartoon with the same animation style as Deathnote.
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Have you seen Samurai Champloo? Also try Samurai Jack, it's not technically Anime, but the artistic style is very appealing. Finally, I would recommend the Aeon Flux shorts; not the actual series as the words mess things up in my opinion, plus there is something poetic in the way she dies in every single one.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Jun 2008
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I nth Ghost in the Shell anything, Cowboy Bebop, and Wolf's Rain.
Full Metal Alchemist started out good, but once the producers reached the end of the manga plot, they made up the rest and thus after episode 23ish the series just goes downhill.
I saw End of Eva, haven't seen the series, so I'm probably not qualified to comment just yet.
Death Note is interesting, but like a lot of animes seems to suffer from "great mid-act climax in the middle of the series, then slowly collapses into poo by the end". Both FMA, Death Note, and a few others have done that so far.
Blayne, it's a visual shorthand to convey emotions, yes. So what? It's not in every anime, and obviously there's a large audience who don't mind the visual shorthand. You do, therefore don't watch animes with those visual shorthands, although it may be hard to completely avoid. It's part of a long history of the development of Japanese animation.
All the animes listed above (in my post), barring fullmetal alchemist and death note, do not use this visual shorthand because of the subject and content of the story and characters. They are appealing to an older demographic I suppose, or it's a style choice because the story is not light-hearted or whimsical.
I guess that's why you started this thread, to find animes that don't use this visual-emotional symbolism/shorthand. Great. You can go on about how poopy the shorthand/cliche is, but um...what's the point?
It's anime. And a very large percentage of anime is aimed at a young market. Having to be "forced past the immaturity"...maybe, but FMA is probably not the best example of "well crafted anime" to begin with. There's a lot of filler material, characters who make the weirdest decisions on a dime, and a cliche "it's a parallel universe" ending.
Death Note is only slightly better, but again suffers from some of the shortest character introductions in history, bad plotting, and "filler" episodes. (SPOILER WARNING)You really have to turn your brain down a notch to accept a story where the main protagonist(antagonist, depending on who's side you're on) is killed halfway through the series, and then two new characters who get 1.7 minutes of backstory, come on to the scene as the story continues haphazardly onward using whatever attention grabbing plot contrivances it can to keep you until the end. (END SPOILER)
Both series, as well as others, appear to suffer from producers who prioritize money over craft. Nothing has to make that much sense, just a threads-width of sense, some story gimmicks to hook the viewer for the next episode. What will happen next???
But this is just because I'm older, and while I like rolling back the clock, the fact of the matter is a large portion of anime is meant for a young audience and is immature.
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If you want to see the best use of that visual shorthand check out Dragon Half. It's only two episodes, but those episodes are a magical break during a long night of "serious" Anime viewing (about 3 disks of Evangelion for example).
When I was a kid I HATED Anime, I wanted all cartoons to look like the western ones I was used to and I couldn't understand all the "weird" things the characters did. The more I watched, though the more I began to appreciate those "clinched" elements. Also learning about the short hand is a good way to start learning about the culture.
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On, a side note when I looked back on a lot of the "American" cartoons from my childhood I realized that they were actually imported and westernized animes (a good example is the Transformers).
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I watched the 4 discs of Death Note available through Netflix a month or so ago. What you're referencing hadn't yet occurred at the end of the 4th disc. A spoiler warning would have been nice; might want to edit one in for other people who haven't seen the show. If you do, post mentioning it and I'll delete the spoiler from this post.
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Give it a try: Baccano Denno Coil Beck (MCS) Gun X Sword Last Exile Ōkiku Furikabutte
Code Geass is good for about 5 episodes, don't bother. Just Clamp doing what is does best, over and over and over again. Still bitter on how they screwed up Tsubasa.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2008
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Japanese television (animation, drama, et cetera) subscribes to its own set of cliches and tropes. It may seem fresh and new when compared to American television, but once you watch enough of it, you can begin to spot the cliches, character types, et cetera, from a mile away.
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Clamp only did the character designs for Code Geass. And it is good for more than 5 episodes . But yeah, it isn't as good as it starts out, later in the series.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by manji: Japanese television (animation, drama, et cetera) subscribes to its own set of cliches and tropes. It may seem fresh and new when compared to American television, but once you watch enough of it, you can begin to spot the cliches, character types, et cetera, from a mile away.
What s/he said.
Noemon, I apologize for the no warning. My OP has been edited.
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Blayne, I have no objection to you voicing your opinions, though I disagree with them. I DO object to you mistaking cultural tropes that differ from your own for laziness and a lack of creativity.
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quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: Noemon, I apologize for the no warning. My OP has been edited. [/QB]
No problem, Earendill--I've accidentally done the same thing more than once. I've edited the spoiler out of my post as well.
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I just picked up Now and Then, Here and There. I'm liking it so far; it reminds me a lot of the original Gundam 0079 anime. The art style looks very dated and simple/lighthearted, but the music and content are very emotional and mature. I too am in a..."serious" mood. I need to find more things like Eva, Death Note, Mononoke, etc. I'd love to find a good mecha anime to get into that isn't like every single other mecha anime. (I love the the U.C. gundam universe...some people tell me Macross/Robotech is worth watching?)
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Blayne Bradley
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I'm watching Monster and I'm horrified with the administration of the German hospital and am glad I live in a country with public healthcare.
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Blayne, Germany at the time the show is set already had a public healthcare system.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Blayne, I have no objection to you voicing your opinions, though I disagree with them. I DO object to you mistaking cultural tropes that differ from your own for laziness and a lack of creativity.
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. But yeah, it isn't as good as it starts out, later in the series.
