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Author Topic: Terminator Season 2.5 Thread
Glenn Arnold
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quote:
I always assumed T-1000s were made of nano-robots that could reconfigure themselves to mimic different materials, including skin.
I always assumed that in addition to the nanobots that made up the robot part, that there were actual skin cells that quickly migrate to the surface whenever the T-1000 is damaged. This would be necessary in order to conserve the "only living tissue can pass through" rule. But it doesn't explain how she can be naked one minute, and simply create clothes to wear the next.
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Elmer's Glue
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You assumed wrong. And how is her creating clothes a problem?
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pooka
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quote:
If you went into it thinking that Arnie was still the bad guy, it must have been a hell of a shock when he shielded John from the 1-000's fire.
I don't think I "got it" until they are in the L.A. river, because I have a memory of thinking "don't run away!" from the cop and alarm that Arnie was gaining on his silly little dirt bike with the big motorcycle.

I noticed the bit about Weaver being naked too, and then she generates some nice post apocalyptic leathers for a half second before disappearing. I don't know. I figure since Cameron didn't come through, time travel must work on whether you have a soul/mind, like the FTL travel in Xenocide. I mean, Cameron was dead, but the tissue surrounding her exoskeleton doesn't necessarily die instantly... blah blah blah. Ignore that man behind the curtain.

Huh. Why didn't I see T3. On the one hand, I guess I had forgotten Arnie was in it. Though I really liked Sarah Connor, and her absence from the story could be what bothered me. (And I suspected that was driven by James Cameron having thrown over Linda Hamilton for that pointless blonde from Titanic.) And they recast John Connor.

Whoa. I am so not encouraged by McG's filmography.

[ April 17, 2009, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]

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pooka
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P.S. I was initially annoyed at the redraw of Sarah and Silberman in Season 1. Then I wondered if it could refer to events somewhat before what we are shown. Deciding to get out could well be a different event from having the opportunity/bald necessity to get out.
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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
I figure since Cameron didn't come through, time travel must work on whether you have a soul/mind, like the FTL travel in Xenocide. I mean, Cameron was dead, but the tissue surrounding her exoskeleton doesn't necessarily die instantly... blah blah blah. Ignore that man behind the curtain.
Cameron didn't come through because there was a huge gap in her skin where her eye was. The object needs to be completely surrounded in living tissue. It has nothing to do with her brain.

quote:
But it doesn't explain how she can be naked one minute, and simply create clothes to wear the next.
Same way she creates her clothes whenever you see her transform (including the very first time you meet her). Honestly, the skin with the T-1000 is one point you simply have to suspend disbelief on. There's no explanation that doesn't contradict some other point. Actual skins cells migrating to the surface wouldn't be able to instantly heal as we see them do, nanobots have the aforementioned "should be able to form whatever complex machine they want" problem.

neo-dragon's "artificially generating the bio-electric current" is the best explanation I've seen so far (although I'm a little hazy on whether bio-electric current actually exists or whether it's different from any other electric current. It's a fake science I'm willing to accept though).

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Mucus
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Well, I don't think Cameron's eye hole was necessarily any bigger than Cromartie's neck hole when his head went through the time travel in the pilot.

Unfortunately, it seems like the "bio-electric current" idea is the one that seems consistent with the two events.

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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
Well, I don't think Cameron's eye hole was necessarily any bigger than Cromartie's neck hole when his head went through the time travel in the pilot.
The official explanation of Cromartie is that he was caught in the explosion which broke him apart and incinerated his skin while he was in the process of going through (which is why the head goes through but ends up without any skin). That still isn't a great explanation and could have used a one-line explanation in the first few episodes, but I'm willing to go with it.

The blogger who wrote the analysis of "Some must watch while some must sleep" has some thoughts on the finale. (She was at first very disappointed with it, still is in some ways, but has a few interesting insights).

http://roxybisquaint.livejournal.com/64688.html

The weirdest one (which had not occurred to me before but now that it's pointed out I can't stop thinking about... Gah!) is that Cameron/John sex-ish scene mirrors the Sarah/John scene in the pilot almost exactly (minus the sex-ish-ness), adding a bizarre oedipal layer to the whole thing.

So now that scene's even weirder, and based on interviews with the director I'm pretty sure it was intentional.

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
You assumed wrong.
And you know this how? (See below)

quote:
And how is her creating clothes a problem?
I guess it's not really a big deal. After all, if she has skin cells that she can position as a covering, she might as well have pigments and other materials she can use to create a covering. But it's a pretty inefficient use of nano technology, when clothes are generally readily available.

quote:
The official explanation of Cromartie is that he was caught in the explosion which broke him apart and incinerated his skin while he was in the process of going through (which is why the head goes through but ends up without any skin). That still isn't a great explanation and could have used a one-line explanation in the first few episodes, but I'm willing to go with it.

Wasn't his head separated from his body? During the "Cromartie puts himself back together" sequence the parts were separated. Once again, my assumption was that these parts didn't travel through time, they just waited until the other parts became active and put themselves back together again, just in time to meet Sarah and John, who made the time jump. Where do you get these official explanations?

And of course, Raymond and I have been going over this for a long time; the fact that magic (and now science fiction) don't have to make sense. You have to make a distinction also, between science fiction that takes known science and projects it into possible scenarios for the sake of a story, and science fiction that isn't really science at all, but masks magical realism in a cloak of pseudo-technological mumbo-jumbo. That's what we're dealing with here.

From the perspective of education theory, the meaning of a story isn't written by the author, it is created by the reader, by assimilating preexisting the author's words with preexisting schema. It's not important what the author means, what's important is what the reader makes of the story for their own purposes. Raymond (and others) like to argue over how this non-sense makes sense. It doesn't. And it doesn't have to.

If the story hangs on the accuracy of the technology, that is, if your involvement in the story is interrupted by the ridiculousness of the technology, then the story probably isn't very good to start with. But when magical time traveling robots, dragons and sentient jewelry can be accepted as fact for the sake of a story, then there must be a good enough story to allow us to suspend disbelief. We assume just enough, based on our pre-existing schema, to allow the story to continue without being interrupted by incredulity. And it doesn't matter what the author intended us to assume.

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Raymond Arnold
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In general I agree with the above (I long ago accepted that the Time Travel and T-1000 technology just plain DIDN'T make sense, but that doesn't mean I also can't enjoy dissecting how they might work once I'm done appreciating the story as a whole).

And on that note:

quote:
But it's a pretty inefficient use of nano technology, when clothes are generally readily available.
This is actually somewhat relevant to the story: The T-1000s often find themselves in situations where they need to quickly duplicate clothes as well as people. When you're pretending to be a floor (T2) or a urinal (Season 2 episode 1) you're not going to be wearing clothes, and then after you've killed whoever you're killing you may need to acquire clothes different from the ones on the person you just killed. (And even if you COULD take clothes from the person you just killed, it's just plain faster to make your own than to strip your victim and put their clothes on)
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Ron Lambert
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T-1000's save on not having to do laundry.
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Nighthawk
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quote:
Wasn't his head separated from his body? During the "Cromartie puts himself back together" sequence the parts were separated. Once again, my assumption was that these parts didn't travel through time, they just waited until the other parts became active and put themselves back together again, just in time to meet Sarah and John, who made the time jump. Where do you get these official explanations?
The head traveled through time; the body didn't. When the head appeared at that time, the body reactivated and had to go fetch it.

Yeah, I know: that doesn't help to explain things. I simply write it up to "humans don't know anything how time travel works, even in the future." I mean, at any point do you see a HUMAN working the time travel device?

quote:
This is actually somewhat relevant to the story: The T-1000s often find themselves in situations where they need to quickly duplicate clothes as well as people. When you're pretending to be a floor (T2) or a urinal (Season 2 episode 1) you're not going to be wearing clothes, and then after you've killed whoever you're killing you may need to acquire clothes different from the ones on the person you just killed. (And even if you COULD take clothes from the person you just killed, it's just plain faster to make your own than to strip your victim and put their clothes on)
FYI: as per T2, the T-1000s can only mimic things that they come in direct contact with. It can't make clothing out of thin air, and when it mimics people it has to mimic the clothing they are wearing at the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong: have we ever seen Weaver in anything other than the plain white dress?

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neo-dragon
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The thing has no fixed shape. How is putting on actual clothes that might not fit it 15 minutes later if it has to change shape efficient?
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Raymond Arnold
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Heh. And my dad totally fails at directing the conversation away from the fake-science analysis. Oh well (that was partly my fault).

I'm curious about something. I've been reading a few blogs that were upset with the ending, largely because Sarah Connor A) makes a really lame to choice to let her son just walk away, B) fails utterly at stopping Skynet. Which basically means she failed at everything (and we know this because John can see so from his position in the future).

At first that seemed kinda harsh to me, but eventually I it occurred to me all both bloggers were 30-something women, for whom Sarah is obviously their POV character. Whereas I'm a 22 year old geeky, logical male. I'm represented pretty directly in the show by John, and to a lesser extent by Cameron (in the sense that she looks at everything through a cold, logical lens, which I sometimes struggle with). The ending was fine for me because it was giving my POV character a chance to meet some important people and evolve in interesting ways.

So I'm curious what demographics we have here and how that impacts POV character. What's your age/gender, and which character do you most strongly identify with? (and has that impacted your appreciation of the story?)

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Raymond Arnold
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I'm watching through Season 1 again with commentary. Some things I've noticed thus far:

1. Ellison is so much happier. Which makes sense, because he is not yet burdened with the knowledge that there's an apocalypse coming. But I remember him being one of my favorite characters in season 1, and it suddenly occurring to me how much I don't like him in Season 2. Now that I'm rewatching it I see why.

2. In the commentary they note that professional dancers make good Terminators, because they are skilled at controlling their bodies. Huh. That's neat.

3. In the commentary for episodes 1 and 3, they try to explain why Cameron is able to act so emotional in the pilot and is so stone-cold in high school. They say in the pilot she's actively trying to achieve a goal and in high school she has no reason to care what people think of her. Eh... no, still not buying it. Especially because she DOES make a token effort to learn from and communicate with the other schoolgirls. If you're going to bother at all, why not do it right?

4. In the commentary they keep talking about how neat the subplot around the high school was and how sad they were that they had to drop it, but they never tell you what it was. Grr.

5. I'm reading old blog comments and... I just can't fathom how people could like season 1 better than season 2. Seriously, season 1 has some cool moments but it's mostly paint-by-numbers action flick. Are there really that many people who are satisfied by that?

Bleh, I was hoping I'd be over this Terminator funk by the end of the week. Looks like I got a few more days to go.

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pooka
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I have a recollection of Weaver wearing a different outfit but I don't remember what episode it was nor what exactly she wore. But she may have been wearing the white dress underneath it.

Maybe the rules of time travel are different depending on whether you are going forward or backward. [Wink]

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Raymond Arnold
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Didn't we hear somewhere that Weaver is a T-1001? I think a reasonable upgrade would be synthesizing a slightly different fabric based on previous input, so she can change the color and shape and whatnot. (The only episode I can think of was on her "husband's" funeral. She was wearing something different, but I couldn't figure out whether it was plaid or not)

Anyway, that's getting to a point where even I must concede the debate is becoming somewhat lame.

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Goody Scrivener
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Finally caught up. Head is spinning so I'm just going to add that Weaver has had several different outfits. Hey, I'm a girl. I notice this stuff LOL. Most common was a white dress, although I'm pretty sure there were a couple different variants. Several styles of shiny blue-grey outfits. One sort-of-plaid dress (it wasn't actually plaid but it did have a pattern that at a glance made the mind think plaid) for Mr. Weaver. And in the last couple episodes, a light blue thing with a bow at the neck (which I think she was in until she had to go all Silver Shield to protect the humans in her office), and then the resistance grubbies after the time-jump.

And yes, IMDB lists her as Weaver/T-1001.

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Raymond Arnold
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I wonder how many other people are just now finishing up. The fate of the show is still uncertain, so if you know anyone else who never got around to finish up, have them watch some episodes on Fox.com as soon as possible.
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neo-dragon
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There's a new 4 minute trailer for Salvation here. I'm really looking forward to this movie. However, I have a problem with John openly stating that Kyle Reese is his father. Plus, tidbits that I've heard about the plot suggest that Skynet knows about Reese. That would seem to contradict the earlier films, and maybe even open a few plot holes.
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Raymond Arnold
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It's time travel. There's no reason John can't choose to do things differently this time around (we've know there've been at least two alternate timelines in the movie series, not to mention that every additional terminator that got sent back represents an additional possible timeline.
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Elmer's Glue
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We find out tomorrow, yes?
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Raymond Arnold
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We find out about the show May 18th.
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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
It's time travel. There's no reason John can't choose to do things differently this time around (we've know there've been at least two alternate timelines in the movie series, not to mention that every additional terminator that got sent back represents an additional possible timeline.

I know that he can choose to do things differently, but it makes no sense. He may be putting his own existence in danger. And if Skynet already knows somehow, all it has to do is not send that first Terminator back and then Reese will never meet Sarah, unless John sends him back specifically to knock-up his mom.

It makes more sense in TSCC where Sarah is so careful about protecting the identity of John's father that she doesn't even want to tell Derek.

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Nighthawk
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BREAKING: “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles” cancelled

quote:
New series “Human Target” takes over the Friday at 8/7c spot, with “Dollhouse” continuing at 9/8c. Terminator fans, including star Thomas Dekker, have campaigned for FOX to renew the show. The question becomes now can the show rise again?

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Elmer's Glue
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[Frown]
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Raymond Arnold
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Sadness. I'm *almost* as sad that Dollhouse has the same ratings-killing spot, and I have an inkling that Human Target is the same kind of sci-fi show that's not going to find a foothold there. Why can't they just dump some cheapo reality crap there?
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neo-dragon
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Let's see what happens if "Salvation" brings in a lot of money and demonstrates that there's still a strong interest in the franchise.

Seriously, why would they announce the cancellation of the show the weekend before a major movie is released?

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Nighthawk:
New series “Human Target” takes over the Friday at 8/7c spot, with “Dollhouse” continuing at 9/8c.

Why are they so stupid as to leave Dollhouse in the slot of death?

Human Target? Christopher Chance the Human Target? That might be worth seeing.

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
Why are they so stupid as to leave Dollhouse in the slot of death?
[/QB]

Just be happy that it's in a slot at all. That's more than I dared hope.
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Raymond Arnold
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Assuming these "random unnamed sources" are trustworthy, even sadder news:

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/05/17/terminator-the-sarah-connor-chronicles-canceled/18840

This one is particularly soul crushing to me. It had seemed to me that at least a crude, hastily thrown together made for DVD movie was at least possible. (Although I suppose the article doesn't specifically preclude that, merely confirm that the show isn't coming back in its intended form)

Know what makes me most angry? SMALLVILLE of all shows is getting another season. Why. Why? WHY!!!???

If "It's Superman" is seriously enough reason to keep people watching a stupid sappy soap opera, why is "It's Terminator" not enough to get actual ratings for an actual good show?

[ May 18, 2009, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Arnold ]

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Samprimary
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I discussed this at length before when I pointed out, like, a month ago or something, that Terminator was not going to be renewed.

There's a self-perpetuating problem in network television that causes a cycle of perverse incentives to reduce the overall variety and quality of their programming.

They feel like T:SCC is a 'risky prospect' so they put it in a timeslot where not even a 'surefire prospect' would survive, then when the 'risky prospect' fails in that timeslot, they use this to entrench their thinking that "see, those shows don't work."

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Raymond Arnold
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I never doubted your logic. I knew the chances of it getting renewed were a long shot, but the fact that dollhouse has been renewed (despite having the same ratings, same timeslot, similar size fanbase, and NOT having a major motion picture coming out to help revitalize the show) tells me that Terminator absolutely could have been renewed if the final numbers had come out different. If enough people had tuned in for the finale or pre-ordered the DVD. If Friedman had somehow come up with a plan that could get the show produced on the skeleton budget that Dollhouse is accepting.

Sad as I am to have those hopes finally completely crushed, I stand by my decision to put the amount of effort I did in to trying to keep the show alive.

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Bella Bee
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Pushing Daisies. Life. Terminator.
That's the best part of what I watch on TV gone.
Guess I'm going to have lots of free time to do more interesting things next year.
Yay? [Frown]

I'm going to miss this show so much - but I did love how it ended on such a high.

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Ron Lambert
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Terminator has not really reached the same mythic stature as Superman. Nor has it even reached the semi-mythic stature of Star Trek. But it could still follow in the steps of Star Trek, if a strong enough and large enough fanbase maintains interest in the franchise.

They could do what Stargate SG-1 did and put out direct-to-DVD movies, Ark of Truth, and Continuum. Having a real liking for time-travel stories, I thought the latter one was the best.

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Raymond Arnold
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That's what I was hoping at first, but A) some of the rumors suggest WB itself kinda wants to be done with the franchise. B) I think the direct-to-DVD stuff would cut down on most the best part - the characterization, and'd still probably have a truncated ending.

If they don't do a DVD, I'd like to at least know where the hell they were going with Season 3.

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Lisa
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Maybe they'll continue it in a comic.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Sad as I am to have those hopes finally completely crushed, I stand by my decision to put the amount of effort I did in to trying to keep the show alive.

It was a worthwhile effort anyway, it just may have been tactically irrelevant. Inside sources indicated that the show had been shuttered by the higher-ups long before the save-tha-show movement began. :<
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Raymond Arnold
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The inside sources that everyone kept citing had also made some statements that were blatantly false. The show creators also continued to encourage the Save-the-Show movement for months afterward. It frankly doesn't make sense to me that they'd be doing that purely for tiny royalties from fox.com (and no royalties from hulu).
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Mucus
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Ah crap.

Wish I could have traded Heroes for this one.

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Elmer's Glue
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I'd trade Heroes for a stale bagel...
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The Pixiest
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I dunno guys... TSCC had way too many boring episodes this year. I mean, yeah there were flashes of greatness but too much was just plain dull.
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Raymond Arnold
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I suspect that what you consider the boring episodes were my favorite parts.
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The Pixiest
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Raymond: The episode about being drugged in the truck?
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Nighthawk
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"Thank you" message from Summer Glau
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Raymond Arnold
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The four episode middle arc was my least favorite, true. (But I really loved Alpine Fields, which a lot of people thought was boring for some reason). Some Must Watch While Some Must Sleep did annoy me when I was first watching it, but even at the time I could tell that it was less because it was a bad episode and more because we had just had 4 episodes with some writing problems and no Cameron. If the episode had come at a time I wasn't already frustrated I think I would have appreciated it more.

Also, I posted this before but I'm not sure anyone read it:

http://roxybisquaint.livejournal.com/54214.html

It's an analysis of the Sleep episode and why it was important. After reading it, my appreciation for the episode went up a lot.

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Occasional
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I am going to miss that show and feel sad as if losing a new friend who moved away. It had a lot more than a shoot them up chase action plot and delved into some serious issues. Although there were one or two slower eps, none of them seemed to me like bad writing. The one with the memories of the future in a submarine was my favorite. Perhaps too many potential fans thought they were getting non-stop action and ended up with actual discussions of important topics. Apparently they have an upcoming movie that contains all the meaningless violence they crave.

People really didn't like or understand Sleep? The general population aren't that smart it seems. It wasn't the best, but I did like the idea of not knowing what is the dream and what is the reality. Yet, both are nightmares. That pretty much sums up Sarah's life with what she has to endure.

Personally, I think that T:TSCC was much better than the last few seasons of Battle Star Galactica. The topics covered things that seemed a lot more relevant to me anyway. Both, for instance, covered the inevitable destruction of humanity. Comparatively, T:TSCC was much more hopeful that the struggle would be worth fighting where the motives in BSG were petty and all negative. Cheers to the show creators.

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Alcon
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quote:
Personally, I think that T:TSCC was much better than the last few seasons of Battle Star Galactica. The topics covered things that seemed a lot more relevant to me anyway. Both, for instance, covered the inevitable destruction of humanity. Comparatively, T:TSCC was much more hopeful that the struggle would be worth fighting where the motives in BSG were petty and all negative. Cheers to the show creators.
I agree except for a few exceptional sections of BSG, that just blow anything else on TV out of the water. The first four episodes of season three for example (the New Caprica arc).
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The Pixiest
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ray: still doesn't change the fact that it was a dream sequence. (I despise dream sequences.)
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Alcon
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Well then you're just a Dream sequenceophobe. You're biased [Razz]

You're making up your mind just based on the fact that it's a dream sequence. You're not giving it a proper trial on its own merits.

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The Pixiest
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We all have story telling devices we hate. With me, it's dream sequences, Virtual Reality ("We can't unplug him, he'll DIE! And if he dies in the game, he dies too!!!!!!!!!!"), or psychic projection into someone's mind. Basically anything that happens in someone's head but didn't REALLY happen.

It's a cheap way to "show, don't tell" but it really doesn't SHOW anything. What makes it worse, is it's so frequently a lie. Things are going along, reasonably normal till people start acting out of character and suddenly Bob walks in in his underwear and starts making out with the (male) main character who then wakes up in a sweat. Boring!

And the guys over at Pixar agree with me, btw. The rewrote a section of The Incredibles to kibosh a dream sequence that would have shown Helen's insecurities. Their reason? It's a cop-out; dream sequences are lazy story telling.

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