posted
M. Scott Peck, in some book whose name I can't remember, said that not that many guys who had access to heroin in Vietnam continued to use it when they returned to the states. I think the book may have been called Care of the Soul. It was a book about palliative care at the end of life and whether it is morally weak to take opiates as an aspect of that. It was just an anecdote, but an anecdote from a dude working in the field.
And for the people who are addicts, the number doesn't really help them.
I guess it is a subject that used to concern me a lot as I thought about being old and possibly in chronic pain, if I might succumb to despair. I'm not really worried about it anymore.
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posted
Well, I know a certain percentage of people have an adverse allergic reaction to it and become violently ill.
The question needs to be more clear though- are you talking about addiction or dependence? Because a lot of people become dependent on various opioids and opiates but do not become addicted, in the sense that they are unable to stop using the drugs in the face of consequences to their health or personal or professional lives. Addictionologists say that drug addiction is strongly linked to hereditary genetic features, but physical drug dependence is medically possible for anyone.
As an anecdote, I can tell you that vicodin and codeine make me sick and have no attraction for me, but the one and only time I was ever given morphine, when I was suffering from a horribly painful leg infection, I woke up the next morning with an instant craving for more morphine. The thoughts about it dissipated over the next couple of days, and I didn't continue to crave pain killers, but it was an enlightening experience.
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: I guess it is a subject that used to concern me a lot as I thought about being old and possibly in chronic pain, if I might succumb to despair. I'm not really worried about it anymore.
If I were facing an end of life situation, and opiates relieved my pain, I would have zero compunction about using them to whatever extent provided comfort. I don't think anyone should, but ymmv of course.
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posted
Phanto, you read an number in an article (presumably from some study), have not posted a link to said article, but have simply quoted a percentage here and want us to tell you whether that number is right? We, Hatrack, who have not read this article, do not have the access to the methods used to determine the numbers you quote (and likely, the skills to evaluate them), and while we may or may not know some users of heroin, it is more likely that we don't know about our friends who do use heroin to make any accurate guess about said numbers. I know people who I think do drugs, but I don't ask them about it as I am disinterested in them myself and I suspect that they would find that rude.
How about finding a second article that does a similar, but independent study and seeing if it draws the same conclusion?
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posted
That's good advice, as I don't think very many people carry around a pamphlet on drug addiction in their back pockets. I would suggest starting with the NIH. They usually have tons and tons of study information on whatever you want to know.
On the other hand, if what you're doing is attempting to find out your odds of becomming addicted if you try some... my advice is, don't!
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What are the dangers other than addiction or improper use (or adulteration)? I've always read that Heroin is remarkably safe if taken correctly- no brain damage or other neurological effects, no physical side effects except for respiratory depression. Every opiate overdose case that ever gets publicity is either an opiode with a dangerous or damaging coagent, or respiratory arrest. Nobody dies of sustained heroin use in small, purified doses. Do they?
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I don't know about that. I just know that heroin overdose victims have been making the news for years, and lots of really talented people died very young from it. Can anyone come up with a partial list? My google fu is deficient.
I think it's an incredibly stupid idea to take it, if that's what you're thinking of. If decades of deaths aren't enough to convince you, probably my post won't either, unfortunately. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Thanks for the posts and warnings, guys. Not going to try Heroin - that's for sure!
I got the number from here, but decided that it wasn't the most reliable source, so tried to track down the initial study, but couldn't.
The reason I want to know is because if Heroin does have an addiction rate of ~23% than it is less addictive than some types of anti depressant.
And why that matters, well it's just an interesting fact and I have an argument with a friend about how addictive antidepressants are.
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Ori, while adulteration is a concern, it is not the only one. It IS dangerous, and addictive.
One of the worst things, believe it or not, is chronic constipation. I'm not talking about not being able to relieve yourself for few days, I am talking about constipation that can rupture the bowels, causing incredible pain and high raters of infection. It is a complete side effect of all opiates, and the more pure the drug the worse it is an issue.
Also, the physical addiction is horrible, and the more pure the drug the worse those effects are as well.
If heroin was safe to use in a pure state, hospitals would use it. Dilaudid is close, but still not heroin....and even in a clinical setting it is not used freely because of the side effects.
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posted
Heroin isn't used in hospitals in the United States because it isn't legal for any use, including medicinal. It is used in the U.K. for terminal patients, and personally, I think it should be allowed here for that purpose too.
I used to use hydrocodone for my back regularly, and I'm still tolerant to it, on the occasion that my back flares up, and I take it again. That is, I no longer experience any of the "high" feeling that originally accompanied it. One thing that I think anyone who is given narcotic pain pill should know is that the high feeling is not necessary to kill the pain. I think a major reason people get addicted to painkillers is that they associate the painkilling effect of the drug with the intoxicating effect of the drug, and they assume that if they aren't getting high, they aren't getting the relief. That just isn't true.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think it's an incredibly stupid idea to take it, if that's what you're thinking of. If decades of deaths aren't enough to convince you, probably my post won't either, unfortunately.
What?? Because I noted that I had different information from you? I'm perfectly aware it's dangerous, and have no plan or inclination to ever take it.
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: Thanks for the posts and warnings, guys. Not going to try Heroin - that's for sure!
I got the number from here, but decided that it wasn't the most reliable source, so tried to track down the initial study, but couldn't.
The reason I want to know is because if Heroin does have an addiction rate of ~23% than it is less addictive than some types of anti depressant.
And why that matters, well it's just an interesting fact and I have an argument with a friend about how addictive antidepressants are.
It's an interesting article. It reminds me of a lot of the arguments for legalizing marijuana, mostly users insisting that their lives are fine thanks, and that certain people are irresponsible so it must be their fault.
Me, I'd love to know if the family members of the users think that their lives are fine. My friend whose mother self-medicated her (unknown at the time) bipolar disorder throughout her childhood with weed is emphatically not in favor of legalizing pot.
I think the article points out the inaccuracy of its own numbers well: the people whose lives are truly devastated from heroin are not available for a household survey. This makes me wonder what kind of research is done at wet shelters and such; I live across the street from one.
As for antidepressants, I don't know. When I was on them, I felt weird when I missed a dose, but I don't know if that was just a psychosomatic reaction. Anyway, when it was time to go off the drugs, the doctor prescribed half size pills, and I split the pills into 10 0.75 doses, 10 0.5 doses and 10 0.25 does. I didn't feel especially awful and that was over a year ago.
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quote:It's an interesting article. It reminds me of a lot of the arguments for legalizing marijuana, mostly users insisting that their lives are fine thanks, and that certain people are irresponsible so it must be their fault.
I always smile a little when someone makes that argument, to put it into even more simple terms of foolishness "Im quite flattered that your so worried about my safety, me ramming my head into the wall and all, but I assure that I am doing so with all caution and that the danger is not in me doing it to myself but those who do it to others."
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quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: Me, I'd love to know if the family members of the users think that their lives are fine. My friend whose mother self-medicated her (unknown at the time) bipolar disorder throughout her childhood with weed is emphatically not in favor of legalizing pot.
That's why I am for the middle road on that. Decriminalize, but don't go crazy promoting it or encouraging its use by taxing it, unless you're really sure that this will drive down overall use, and especially among people who abuse it. Pot is a drug abused by some, but enjoyed by many. It's not particularly dangerous, but for a small minority of people, it's a horrible thing.
This current approach, of basically supplying it legally *only* to the people who are most likely to abuse it, is stupid. I don't think these people should ever have to go scrounging the streets for weed, but I think we should be taking all that manpower and attention away from pursuing illegal distribution, and focus it on abusers. Instead, we just clamp down on everybody *except* the abusers and act like everything is nicely solved. It's like having a law that says you're not allowed to drink outside a bar, when the bars are set up to service alcoholics. Remember what happened during prohibition? Alcohol abuse increased because the population that was willing to endure the speak-easies and obtained booze illegally were encouraged to drink more. People who might enjoy a beverage just didn't, but that changed nothing. Concentrating the addict population makes the problem worse.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Heroin isn't used in hospitals in the United States because it isn't legal for any use, including medicinal. It is used in the U.K. for terminal patients, and personally, I think it should be allowed here for that purpose too.
I used to use hydrocodone for my back regularly, and I'm still tolerant to it, on the occasion that my back flares up, and I take it again. That is, I no longer experience any of the "high" feeling that originally accompanied it. One thing that I think anyone who is given narcotic pain pill should know is that the high feeling is not necessary to kill the pain. I think a major reason people get addicted to painkillers is that they associate the painkilling effect of the drug with the intoxicating effect of the drug, and they assume that if they aren't getting high, they aren't getting the relief. That just isn't true.
That's putting the carriage before the horse. It's illegal, even though many other narcotics aren't, because of the danger of addiction. There are other narcotics that can relieve pain better than heroin does, with less side effects.
Hell, Dilaudid is pretty close to the same thing, but without some of the worse side effects, and even that has to be watched very closely.
If you are properly medicated you won't become addicted to pain meds. You will have to deal with an increase in tolerance if you are on them long term, but that isn't the same thing as addiction.
Most people con't define the difference between the two, and the line blurs the longer you are on them, which is why pain management doctors have special training to deal with the repercussions of long term use.
If you are feeling anything more than a faint feeling of that "high", your dose is too strong and you could become addicted. A lot of people avoid using their pain meds effectively due to a fear of becoming addicted, and that isn't a good thing. Used properly, in the correct doses as ordered, pain meds are an effective tool. It's when they are abused, or the dosage is not correct, that they become a long term problem.
posted
I would also like to point out that there is a growing group of people who want to place MORE restrictions on anti-depressants because of the "addiction" problem. It would be foolish to say that because addictive drug A is legal then we should also make addictive drug B legal. Instead, we should be more concerned about what's going on with drug A, and figuring out a way to handle the problem.
Quite frankly, I'm not sure if antidepressants are "addictive" in the technical sense, but personally I know that there are problems with them. If your only argument in favor of Heroin is that it's only a bad as some of those drugs... well... go read some Paxil detox stories!
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quote:That's putting the carriage before the horse. It's illegal, even though many other narcotics aren't, because of the danger of addiction.
What difference does that make for someone that's terminally ill?
quote:There are other narcotics that can relieve pain better than heroin does, with less side effects.
Perhaps, but perhaps not. It's legal in England because people claim that nothing else relieves their pain as well. I don't think it should be denied to someone who's terminal, if they need it.
quote:If you are feeling anything more than a faint feeling of that "high", your dose is too strong and you could become addicted. A lot of people avoid using their pain meds effectively due to a fear of becoming addicted, and that isn't a good thing. Used properly, in the correct doses as ordered, pain meds are an effective tool. It's when they are abused, or the dosage is not correct, that they become a long term problem.
The point I was making is that no one taught me that the drug would continue to relieve pain even after the tolerance kicked in and I stopped feeling the "high." I figured that out on my own. I think it should be standard protocol to inform your patient that the high will go away but the pain will still be relieved, because I think that that information could reduce the number of painkiller addictions.
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posted
Well, if the dosage had been correct in the first place, you wouldn't have HAD a high.
There are many dangers to Heroin, which is why we used Dilaudid....which IS legal heroin, basically.
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posted
Kwea, you are using the common, but still inappropriate definition of "addiction." Addiction is a specific disorder separate from drug dependence. You can become dependent without being an addict.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think it's an incredibly stupid idea to take it, if that's what you're thinking of. If decades of deaths aren't enough to convince you, probably my post won't either, unfortunately.
What?? Because I noted that I had different information from you? I'm perfectly aware it's dangerous, and have no plan or inclination to ever take it.
My comment was directed to Phanto, not you, Orinoco. But I'm glad neither of you is contemplating taking it. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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