Better = cat able to roam free Good = chickens able to free range
Bad = chickens stuck in a cage Worse = cats stuck in a house
Did you have something else to add to the conversation? How many cats do you have anyway? You aren't one of those strange cat ladies are you???
Posts: 571 | Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I think we should ignore Lobo's advice. Clearly he is just looking for snacks.
I don't think we should ever take cat advice from a wolf, seems all to clear to me now why he/she would prefer outdoor cats.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Did you have something else to add to the conversation?
She added something quite useful to my question already -- the advice about the hair toys. (Thanks, CT!)
quote:How many cats do you have anyway? You aren't one of those strange cat ladies are you???
Now, now -- we've already established in another thread that I am the crazy cat lady.
Seriously, lobo, I don't think you're wrong for letting your cats outdoors. And you have made your point quite clearly already that you think that those of us who keep ours indoors are unethical and wrong. Got it. Thanks for sharing. Now please allow me to exercise my evil dominion over this hapless feline in peace.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Did you have something else to add to the conversation? How many cats do you have anyway? You aren't one of those strange cat ladies are you???
No you don't, not much other than a bit of stick poke, have had two cats most of my life, not really, and this is supposed to be insulting, isn't it? It fell quite short of the mark. Much does. Again, my sympathies.
However, I do appreciate the reminder to be more gentle to your sensibilities. I will try.
---
Edited to add: As for the latter, I also far quite short of the mark all too often. My apologies.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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All right, so this morning the Evil Kitty Formerly Known as Merlin scratched my face!
I was sitting on the bed and he came up and started to play. I've discouraged any kind of play that involves my body parts due to his propensity for overenthusiasm -- toy on a string is the direction I've gone with him.
So he came up and started to bite the wrinkle in my jeans, and I gently told him to stop and picked him up and moved him away. He then decided my hand was a toy and started attacking it, so I followed Black Blade's advice and hissed at him. I've been doing this fairly consistently, but with mixed results. He obviously recognizes it as an expression of displeasure, but it's not something that intimidates him -- rather, he looks at me with big eyes, like "You're kidding, are you challenging ME? You wanna piece of this?" He often repeats the behavior -- it's like a defiant teenager going "don't tell ME what to do!" Generally it's solved by my distancing myself from him.
Well, today he gave me that look and before I knew what was up he was sitting on his haunches and both front paws up and swiped both sides of my face. Man, this cat has an overdeveloped fighting tendency. He got yelled at, loud, and shoved off the bed and I left for a while. He's now curled up in my lap, sleeping angelically.
I'm thinking that the reason he acclimated so easily to people and indoor life is because someone has taken him in before, then got rid of him when he became too much to handle. This is definitely one spitfire of a cat, although he's really inordinately sweet and affectionate most of the time. I guess I'll be getting a spray bottle to keep on hand at all times next. The scratches are not deep, but they are visible. I'm hoping the makeup covers them up so I don't have to answer questions about them. "I walked into a wire brush." Yeah, that's the ticket.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ouch. Yeah. That cat needs some training. Have you tried the coins in a can noise? You shake the can to make a bad noise when the cat is bad. The vet may have some suggestions, but that sounds like aggression rather than playing.
Trixie accidentally scratched my hand the other day. It was entirely my fault. I was dangling a ribbon with one hand and I was getting dressed with the other hand and not really paying attention. I went down when I should have gone up and she caught me. I yelped and Trixie was horrified. Instantly on her back and "apologizing". She was fine after some petting and reassurance that it wasn't her fault.
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Yeah, no apologies from this guy. I think he's a bit of a sociopath. ;-) Very charming, no conscience.
I'm making a note of your cans in coin suggestion, thanks--any tips on cat training appreciated. (Although at this point I'm guessing he'll try to attack the can!) Mom's had cats for most of her long life, some of them a bit feisty, but Merlin takes the cake. The current oldest cat was pretty much insane as a kitten, and still has a loopy personality, but she was never trying to hurt anyone.
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I do not know if this is consistent with actual cat psychology, but I've found time outs help with mine. They don't scratch us, but they do push other limits. I do the hiss and the loud noise, and if they keep acting up, immediately after the next incident (immediately!) it's a pop into the shut bathroom for 10-15 minutes.
There is a water dish in there. No food or litterbox, but I never leave them in there very long. It seems to calm them down, and they seem (?) to try to avoid it in the future by behaving better.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Bravo on giving the hissing a try Uprooted! Though others have suggested otherwise I would not yell at the cat ever, trust me they just don't get it. I mean sure it might scare them, but I don't think they put 2 and 2 together as in cause and effect. To me they just think, "wow what are they doing!?"
I'm sure you realize that feral cats are certainly less likely to domesticate peacefully. Your cat's response to hissing was kinda funny. But I really am sorry your cat scratched your face. Could you explain where you were when your cat did it? Were you in it's face? Sitting down at a distance? When I've watched my cat's, (I miss them so very much) play, sometimes Maya, (the smaller one) would hiss at Mao Mao (the older bigger one.) Mao Mao would take a few steps back, stare Maya down and go back in for the kill, usually followed by more hissing and Maya running away with Mao Mao hot on her heals.
My cats also had mixed reactions to hissing, but that's totally understandable, cat's don't always mean the same thing when they hiss. Just like you don't always mean the same thing when you raise your voice. The coins in a can idea is interesting, but I just have not found fear to be an effective way to discourage behavior, though it is a good way to get your cat to just leave you alone. Now granted every cat is different, some no matter what you do will continue to act a certain way while others will not. What was very interesting about Mao Mao was that she had absolute respect for me. As a kitten she loved to play with me, but when she got out of control I let her know. My wife tried the shouting chasing the cat thing and it produced interesting results. After Mao Mao grew up it was clear she loved us both, but she acted differently towards us. To Tiffany Mao Mao was sweet and quite playful, but if Tiffany tried to hold her Mao Mao would sit there tense and eventually hiss and slap Tiffany in the face. She would also act that way if forced to be next to Maya.
As for me, she would give me a salutatory meow when I came home, and I could hold her whenever I wanted, but she wouldn't play with me. I could use toys and she'd chase them, but if I tried to play with her like another cat or like Tiffany she just ignored me. It seems to me that Mao Mao respected and loved me, but saw me as a superior. Tiffany was an equal or perhaps lower entity so they could play but she could not hold Mao Mao.
Merlin sounds like a very interesting cat, and I really don't think that I can give you perfect advice unless I myself interacted with him. What I can suggest is that you expect that using any new body language can take time, and that a hiss is definitely not the end of the matter as far as a cat is concerned. Many times they will see if they can continue doing as they do.
When Mao Mao ignored hissing I employed guttural moaning. I'm not sure if you've heard it, but a cat, when they mean business, will often preceded hissing with a sort of moaning. AH! count on youtube to have what I was looking for.
Notice those cats are DEFINITELY not happy with each other but they are not hissing. The one trying to come in the door is avoiding eye contact as it does not want to antagonize the black cat but neither does it want to back away. The difference between "your playing too rough" hissing and, "leave me alone" hissing is that groaning, of this I am quite certain. Use direct eye contact ONLY when you are trying to establish dominance, expect this to escalate things.
I could often get Maya to sprint away just by groaning that way. Now it's certainly possible your cat will hear this and think, "hey you can't act this way, I'm the boss!" When that sort of thing happened to me I would grab Mao Mao by the scruff and flick/tap her nose until she stopped fighting me. I had some other techniques but they are kinda complicated and I have little confidence they would help in your situation. PLEASE realize that this MIGHT NOT work for your cat. Escalating things until my cat backed down worked for me, but it does NOT always work.
As I said before some cats just won't change certain characteristics. Fortunately for me Mao Mao got it and though she definitely had a feral side to her, she was as obedient a cat as I have ever seen. If you can, clip your cat's claws as that will help you avoid further injury. I clipped Mao Mao and Maya's claws ever two weeks or so and though they sometimes fussed they learned to tolerate it.
Teaching them to tolerate baths was my proudest accomplishment.
edit: Sorry this response was so long! Also Claudia's idea of timeouts is an excellent suggestion. Mao Mao and Maya both seemed to respond positively to being shut in a dark closet for a few minutes. Once I forgot about Mao Mao and left here there for about 2 hours. I felt terrible afterward, usually she would meow when she wanted out.
quote:Originally posted by T:man: She was really old, she liked run outside, my dad found her under a bush.
I'm sorry T:man, losing a cat even if you've only had them a short time is definitely difficult. My condolences.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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BB, thanks for your thoughtful response. Definitely know the moaning sound, now whether I can reproduce it at all is another story!
Despite his moments of aggression, he seems to be quite happy with me -- greets me, wants to be held and petted, and spends most of his time when I'm around curled up in my lap. So it's not like he regards me as the enemy, at least not until I try to correct his behavior. I do need to figure out how to be viewed as alpha cat. He was quite cute the other night; I let him have the run of the basement, which I don't normally do because the other cats' litter boxes are down there and I don't like to close the door on them. Anyway, he was so excited to go explore the rest of the basement, but he kept returning into the room where he's been staying to mew at me and tell me all about it.
T:man, sorry to hear about Petra.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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This is my suggestion. Please don't try to train your kitten not to play, wrestle, pounce, etc. You might succeed but I'm not sure if you won't also cause fear and trauma and developmental disorders at the same time. Instead try to control the play into forms that don't hurt you. A kitten is a baby and definitely needs to be able to play in order to develop properly. Kitten play is usually rambunctious and kind of rough. You're taking the place of the littermates and mom, so please do give as much attention and interaction as you're able, and count on a bit of gnawing and scratching and pouncing as being completely normal. Maybe you can get some leather gloves or wear other protective clothing. Maybe you can play in ways that don't hurt you until the cat is worn out and sleeping. And please understand that staying up late is something young cats do as well as young humans. Please don't expect the cat to be able to conform to your schedule but be willing to give a little and arrange things so the cat's most important needs are met and so are yours. You have a need to sleep and not be sliced to ribbons. It's certainly possible to arrange your life so that can happen. But the kitten needs to play and have social interaction so don't try to break its spirit entirely. Work with it and not against it to the extent you can. Realize that it's a baby and needs your love and forbearance. Doing so will greatly increase the joy and delight the kitten can bring you. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Well, he is young but no longer a baby -- over a year, fully sexually mature, etc. More of a teenager. I wouldn't call him a kitten, although he's still somewhat kittenish in his behavior.
I've played with LOTS of cats and kittens in my lifetime, and enjoy it greatly. I've gotten scratched plenty, no biggie. This guy definitely has a more intense, aggressive quality about him. I'm sure a lot of it is because he had to make it on his own outdoors -- he was a hunter and a fighter by necessity, not just by nature. But I'm also noticing he has a boldness to him that's atypical for cats I've known. The same boldness that made it no problem for a kitty born in the wild to approach a strange human with friendliness and settle down on her lap also makes him a fearless fighter.
I'm not going to go the gloves route, because I need to train him not to hurt my arms and hands. I don't see why he'd understand the difference between attacking my gloved hand and attacking my bare hand. Sometimes it's just a love bite -- but sometimes he is killing that hand and man, he bears down hard w/ those teeth. One of our other cats loves the hand under the blanket game -- at 14 years of age she still chases that hand and pounces on it like a kitten. But she's never borne down too hard with her teeth.
Anyway, we are working on boundaries. I no longer come near him w/ bare feet and legs, I wear long pants, socks, and shoes. I've figured out that attacking my feet and ankles is something he does when he thinks I'm leaving and he doesn't want me to. Believe me, it's painful! I don't want to yell at him and scare him, but you try not yelling at claws and teeth tenaciously dug into your foot! ;-) Last night I tried the scruffing method BB mentioned -- did it very calmly and gently, just held him down for a couple of seconds -- and he seemed to respond well, calmed down, didn't seem overstimulated to get into aggressive faceoff mode, didn't try to bite again, but didn't act cowed and overly submissive, either. He was just sort of matter-of-fact about it. So that was once, I'll just have to figure out what works in the future.
At any rate, he's had plenty of love and forbearance and will continue to. He's the most charming thing imaginable, but I've got to get the aggressiveness in check. Being scratched on the face is not something I'm just going to figure out how to live with.
And I'm continuing to try to find ways to play with him that don't involve direct body contact, since that hasn't had a happy ending. He loved the toy on the string thing at first, but I think he finally figured out that it wasn't a real bird at all and that once he caught it it didn't taste good, and he lost interest. So I'm looking for different toys. So far, a used printer cartridge wrapper tossed across the floor seems to be a satisfactory substitute for prey! And no, I don't let him chew on it. he doesn't like to anyway. Running after it and pouncing seem to help work off some energy -- and it skitters most excellently across the smooth floor when batted with a paw.
I'm hoping we can get him integrated with the other cats before too long. One site said it can take as long as 6 months (sigh). I don't mind if they're uneasy or grouchy w/ one another or if they tussle a bit; our two cats get into it more or less daily. It generally starts out as affection--Allie tries to cuddle with Suzie -- there may be some washing of ears or other grooming activities, but eventually someone gets mad, they growl, hiss, meow and wrestle for a minute, then someone stalks off huffily. Since Merlin's been here, Suzie is more likely to smack or growl at Allie for no reason, but nothing major. But Merlin was a major aggressor when he encountered Allie, he was going for the fight and probably the kill. Her running away didn't help (she is totally willing to be submissive), he chased her down and resumed the attack. Sigh. Hoping this can change. Really, really want to keep him, and not in isolation as he is now. But one day at a time!
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Good luck! It sounds like you're doing everything possible!
One tool for rearranging dominance behavior in communal cats that AJ recently taught me. Feed the cat first whom you want to have higher dominance and force the cat to eat later whom you want to have lower dominance. In about 4-6 weeks it totally changed my cats' behavior to one another.
I had a new cat Grace who was timid. The existing two cats, Mouse and Felicity, would chase her downstairs into a hiding place any time they saw her out. There she was unable to eat, drink, or use the litter box. I had kept her in her own room so that wouldn't happen, and it had been almost a year they were separated, with trial visits, which always ended with Grace hiding, as well as interaction under the door, about 1" from the floor, room to stick a paw through.
After feeding Grace first, in front of the other cats (holding them off from chasing her off), they all realized after a few weeks that Grace belonged here and mattered and all that, and should not be chased away. It was a great idea! (Thanks, AJ!)
Now we have a reasonably peaceful home. They do sometimes squabble, usually when they're hungry, but mostly get along just fine.
Anyway, good luck with your guy. He sounds like quite an outstanding cat. I hope you find a way to get him to adapt. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Hmm, thanks Tatiana -- that's an interesting technique. I think we'll have to try that once we're ready for trying more in the way of introductions. He's a voracious little eater, and I think the one thing that will distract him from chasing the other cats down is to present him with a choice: full cat food dish when he's hungry vs. two cats who aren't competing w/ him because they've already eaten. (You'll notice I'm not even thinking of dominance issues yet, just "can we put them in the same room w/o bloodshed?")
We haven't even had that paw through the door interaction since the first night he was here. I think they are just afraid of him and in denial about his existence and staying as far away from his room as they can right now.
I'm noticing that the toy on the string is also becoming boring because he's far more interested in the hand holding the string, and I won't let him at that, lol! I've found that this one strip of fabric is the most popular toy w/ all of them--the less you spend, the more they like it.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Well, I'm afraid we're going to have to start looking for another home for Merlin -- although in good conscience, I could only give him to someone with a) lots of cat experience and b) no other cats or children. He is just too wild and aggressive. I still love him to death, but I no longer trust him and I think he can sense that and we're increasingly wary around each other.
Mom and I have both been telling ourselves that as he gets older and the kittenish behavior wears off it will get better, etc. etc. A couple of days ago, however, we had quite the eye-opener. Admittedly, we were stupid and handled it badly. Mom's been working on acclimating him to a harness and leash, with the idea that she would restrain him with that the next time we tried an introduction with the other cats. Well, that backfired royally. He was upstairs and Allie was clamoring to get out of the room she was closed in. They'd had some relatively peaceful interactions under the door, so Mom thought they were perhaps ready for a face-to-face meeting.
I had my rather significant misgivings, but I deferred to Mom's many more years of experience with cats. Should have listened to my gut. I let Allie out of the bedroom, she marched right over to Merlin who was completely suprised and attacked her immediately, and then when Mom pulled him back with the leash he turned on her. An ER trip, several stitches, a tetanus shot and some antibiotics later, she is fine. There is a reason why all the literature says to never try to intervene in a cat fight, but it's hard to watch your pet be be mauled. But although Mom is in great health, she's 81 years old -- this kind of stress she doesn't need.
I'm realizing now that the first few weeks we had him he was sick and very cuddly and sweet as he recovered from his wounds and infections and allergies and all else he had. He still has the sweet side, but it's too intermingled with the aggression. The spray bottle of water is (or brute strength overpowering him) is the only thing that deters him from attacking when he wants to, even though it's generally in play.
We're beginning to despair of him ever acclimating to the others, not to mention being kinda afraid of him ourselves. We don't want to just release him back outdoors, although we are going to get him the shots he needs to prevent FIV and feline leukemia, then start him on a flea regimen, so that he can become an indoor/outdoor cat. He'd break our hearts trying to get back in if we just kicked him out altogether.
At least he can't contribute further to the growing feral cat population in our residential neighborhood. (There is one little kitten running around that looks just like him, though--I have my suspicions.) But I think our chances for finding him another home are slim to none. I'd be completely up front about our issues with him, and really, after that introduction, who would want to take him on? Hence the preparations for making him an indoor/outdoor cat; we don't want to keep him cooped up downstairs all the time, but we really thought he'd have the run of the house by now.
Sorry for going on and on and on. Anyone know anything about placement of difficult pets? If I had a camcorder I'd get some footage of him playing to put on YouTube. He really is adorable and quite a hoot. When he's attacking his play mice and not other cats or people, that is.
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When my parents fixed their tom cat, his aggressiveness dropped off considerably. He's still prone to playing rough, when he wants to, but the desire to fight is clearly gone.
Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Yes, he was neutered nearly 2 months ago--the vet said it takes about 6 weeks for the testosterone levels to come down all the way.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I'm so sorry Uprooted. All I can say is that you might want to consider sticking it out and just keep trying. Mao Mao was the sweetest kitten you ever saw, she loved everyone. When she hit 1 year for some reason she rapidly regressed into a feral phase. She hissed and attacked everybody except me and Tiffany. She was still very sweet to me, but whenever anybody came over it was a nightmare. Everyone told us to get rid of her but we just kept working with her. Eventually people who came over frequently were permitted to sit next to Mao Mao and eventually even pet her. Mao Mao would still have days were strangers just couldn't touch her, and she started craving her own space, but she learned to tolerate others.
When we introduced Maya into the mix it was the same cycle all over again. First Mao Mao adopted her as a daughter, and eventually became antagonistic towards Maya. Eventually they settled on a sometimes play but usually doing their own thing apart relationship.
As I said before there are some behaviors you just can't change in cats, but those behaviors are not always evident from the get go. Cats go through alot of changes in their first 2 years. You might want to consider this, but if you just can't handle all this, it's totally understandable. There really are people who prefer cats with a bit more difficulty to their personalities. There is nothing wrong with making arrangements for a new home if you can't handle your cat. It's pointless to live in misery with a cat that overall just doesn't want to be part of your whole family.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: There really are people who prefer cats with a bit more difficulty to their personalities.
Thanks for your post, BB. I actually am normally one of those people. I was just thinking this morning (as Merlin sat angelically purring on my lap) that I really do like cats with a bit of personality, which for some reason in cats usually does mean "difficulty." Our oldest cat is a hoot--quirky as heck, and from what I understand a real pain when she was younger, but never to this extent. I told Merlin this morning, "well, at least you're interesting!"
Allie, on the other hand, is sweet but boring. Big fat gushy cat who clamors for food and cuddles and is probably the one they coined the term "scaredy cat" about--but not much else to her. I find myself looking at her and saying "Do something!"
Nothing's resolved at this point, other than that I'm looking at options. I'm taking him today to get his "outdoor" shots. I've sent emails to a couple of no-kill cat rescue/adoption places.
posted
Yup, he's on an SSRI now. Does that sound pathetic or what? But it's been a godsend. We finally asked the vet about it, and she suggested Prozac. We waited about a month because we were really reluctant to go that route, but I'd finally had it and said "forget it, I can't deal with this anymore."
The vet said (as did several online sources) you need to wait 3-6 weeks to determine whether it's having any effect, but we saw a difference immediately. He is still lively, playful and active (well, aside from an hour or so after he's given it, when there is some lethargy), but the mean aggressive side is gone. He does not attack us unprovoked. He still does have the bad habit of biting when he wants something he's not getting, but he does it like a normal cat -- a little nip and runs away, not a ferocious death attack!
Now, with other cats it's a different story. He's still segregated in our 3-cat home, and the one time one of the others got out when he was loose he chased her down into a corner of the basement with piles of junk we couldn't get to. But we found no evidence that he hurt her--once she was utterly cowed and reduced to an incontinent quivery mess in the corner, he came back out when we called him and seemed perfectly calm.
We've also been letting him outside again. He came home on Saturday w/ some evidence of having been in a fight, but he seemed okay on Sunday and we let him out again. Big mistake. He came home a real mess, with bite and scratch wounds on head and front legs. He was really limping and slept most of Sunday and Monday, but we got him on antibiotics yesterday and he's nearly back to normal today. And of course wants back out. *sigh* He's not a very good indoor cat, but he's also not avoiding trouble outdoors, so I'm not sure how we'll deal with this! Oh well, keep him in at least till the antibiotics wear off, I guess.
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Yeah, my mom has a cat that used to be on Prozac. Here's the good news-- it improved her behavior and after 2 years she was weaned off and didn't need it any more. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Oh man, that makes my family's cat look like a sweetheart. She has always been a bit wild, although she was never feral. She has mellowed as she's grown older and now she only nips if you're really not paying attention to her wandering around your feet or looking to go outside. When she was younger she would attack you if you walked down the stairs past her or when my youngest sister would annoy her, which wasn't great. She doesn't like to be held and was a nightmare at the Vet's. They told us to put her down, but thankfully we worked through it. I'm not soft about that kind of thing, but it seemed a little extreme to kill a cat for behaving like a spunky cat.
She's firmly an outdoors cat, at least in the Summer. It was mostly because we couldn't keep her indoors. The longest she's been away is all weekend but she returned totally normal- not tired or sick or anything.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Oh, I'm glad to hear the cat is doing better! Going outside is not good, of course. Realize that shots for things like FIV and FeLeuk are only about 85% effective, and most of those outdoor cats he's fighting with have bad diseases. I realize at this point that you're trying to choose between less than ideal options, but I wanted you to know that because I had a cat who escaped when she was in heat, stayed gone 2 weeks, and came home with Feline Leukemia after she'd tested negative and been through all the vaccines as a kitten. So don't think vaccinations are total protection. They're really as much a public (cat) health benefit as they are a protection for individual cats, since the spread of disease will be more limited in a vaccinated population.
I really really hope you find a good safe loving way to take care of this cat, even if it's finding another home for him.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Here's another suggestion, that I learned from dean as well as Drive By's illness. (Drive By was my feral cat of whom the vet was terrified.) Daily handling gradually makes them tamer. Drive By got asthma when she was older, and the only way to keep her alive and healthy was to hold up this little kitty facemask to her face and spray FloVent, this human asthma drug, into the cylinder attached to the facemask. Now imagine having to get the mask on the kitty's face, and spray this thing that makes a loud hissing noise, and also keep her from killing me and getting away while she breathes the mist for 30 seconds to 1 minute. It was quite challenging. Naturally the first 10 times I tried it, I ended up in tears, sometimes pretty badly wounded (though I managed to avoid stitches), bleeding profusely, etc. It was extremely difficult. If she wasn't going to die without it, I couldn't have done it.
But it got easier, as it always does. The first few times, she wouldn't forgive me for several days. Then the time shortened until she forgave me right away. Then she fought less, though she never would do it willingly. But after a month or so of that, I discovered that she had actually gotten tamer. She allowed strangers to pet her. She would come out when they were around, even. It definitely did gentle her, and I recalled how you break a wild horse to the bridle and saddle, from something I'd read, by daily handling. It really does work. It worked with dean's cat Heidi too. She got tamer from daily forced gentle handling.
Now ordinarily I wouldn't do that, but in Drive By's case I had to, and it worked great.
I don't know if that idea could be of any help to you or not. But I thought I'd pass it along, in case it's of use. Good luck!
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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My own cat behavior question: My cats have been peeing intermittently all over our living room instead of in their litter boxes for a good six months or so now. I've tried a lot of stuff, including new litter boxes and litter and just being much more vigilant in cleaning the boxes in general. They still do Number 2 in the boxes, and sometimes Number 1 too, but every now and again they go in the living room. There's no real rhyme or reason to it, and they don't seem upset or resentful, so I don't think it's a behavioral/revenge thing for anything I've done.
Any thoughts? The living room is becoming like a giant ammonia pit.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Suggestions: enzyme carpet cleaning, also spot cleaning with Resolve. The smell of Resolve, while not unpleasant for humans, discourages them from using that spot again. The enzyme overall carpet cleaning really gets the smell out.
How clean is clean on the litter boxes? It takes a while to break habits learned from having dirty litter boxes.
Secondly, many cats have urinary tract infections that make them pee in weird places. Rule out medical reasons. Other conditions that I've seen cause cats to pee outside the litter box are diabetes and kidney disease.
I've raised cats for about 30 years and I've never had a single one of these be a behavioral problem. All were medical, except for those times when I didn't keep the litter box clean. In fact, they trained me to keep it clean this way. When I worked at home, I would clean them every day. Now that I'm working at an office, I clean them every time I'm down there, which isn't as often, and they've had to start training me again. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Thanks for the info, Tatiana. I am probably a little more fatalistic about keeping him healthy than you would be; I'd like for him to remain an indoor-only cat, and I'd be sad if he were badly injured or sickened or killed, but I don't honestly know if that would make me any sadder than seeing him unhappy cooped up in the house. I'll keep him in till he's off this round of antibiotics, at least, but we'll probably see how outdoors goes after that. The way I look at it, he'll live longer and be healthier as an indoor/outdoor cat w/ me than he would have been outside on his own like we found him.
He has been really good since starting on the Prozac; all I have are scars on my arms now, no new wounds. He's still feisty, but he plays like a normal cat now. And if I go outdoors for a walk he follows me like a dog, meowing unhappily if I stray too far into alien territory. Once I began letting him out again I learned that he has a gang of friends among a group of middle-school aged boys who wondered where "Ziggy" had gotten to. And on one of my walks w/ my mother he stopped in a yard where a large group of young children were thrilled and delighted with him. He stayed and played with them until mom and I returned, then followed us home. I was a little nervous about him with the young children, but I figured that his behavior would be different when he was outdoors and could get away, and I warned them to leave him alone if he tried to get away or laid his ears back. Plus he'd been on the Prozac for a while and he hadn't shown any aggression towards us for quite some time. He's just so happy roaming outdoors, and so restless in the house, even though we try to keep him busy. I'm pretty conflicted; I'm not so sure I believe the risks inherent in the big bad world are worth my feeling that we're imprisoning a free spirit. Like I told lobo early on, I really do see both sides of the argument.
After a couple of days on the antibiotics he thinks he's all better and is once again scaling the heights (tops of room dividers/bookcases/fridge etc.) and making mad dashes around the room in pursuit of imaginary prey.
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Thanks for the advice, Tatiana! My girl cat did have a urinary tract infection shortly after she came to live with me, I probably should make sure that's not the case again.
We'll see if another overhaul of the litter boxes helps any -- also, I'll definitely be trying out that Resolve thing! Thanks again!
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quote:Originally posted by Leonide: Thanks for the advice, Tatiana! My girl cat did have a urinary tract infection shortly after she came to live with me, I probably should make sure that's not the case again.
We'll see if another overhaul of the litter boxes helps any -- also, I'll definitely be trying out that Resolve thing! Thanks again!
Tatiana's advice has been very good lately. I'd also add my voice to the Resolve idea, that stuff is pure magic. Also if you've replaced the litter boxes, (Which usually shouldn't do anything) it's almost definitely the urinary tract infection.
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: Suggestions: enzyme carpet cleaning, also spot cleaning with Resolve. The smell of Resolve, while not unpleasant for humans, discourages them from using that spot again. The enzyme overall carpet cleaning really gets the smell out.
How clean is clean on the litter boxes? It takes a while to break habits learned from having dirty litter boxes.
Secondly, many cats have urinary tract infections that make them pee in weird places. Rule out medical reasons. Other conditions that I've seen cause cats to pee outside the litter box are diabetes and kidney disease.
I've raised cats for about 30 years and I've never had a single one of these be a behavioral problem. All were medical, except for those times when I didn't keep the litter box clean. In fact, they trained me to keep it clean this way. When I worked at home, I would clean them every day. Now that I'm working at an office, I clean them every time I'm down there, which isn't as often, and they've had to start training me again.
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FlyingCow's New Cat thread prompted me to bump this with a little update. Just wanted to let those of you who followed this thread know that after several months on Prozac, and with access to the great outdoors several hours per day, Merlin has become quite the agreeable companion. He's still extremely active and energetic, and still the strongest muscliest little cat I've encountered. He now sleeps with me in my room and can be trusted not to pounce on my face in the middle of the night ;-). He will still bite/scratch if startled, but we have all learned to read each others' signals and he's no longer as paranoid, and we haven't had an "attack cat" incident in several months.
He is still not integrated with the other two cats, but we have seen signs that this might be feasible at some point. They still freak out if he comes to the front door and they can see him through the window, but they have been known to relax in another part of the room while I'm holding on to him on my lap (but if they move he wants to chase them). We've had a few accidental encounters and they always end up with the other cat cornered and terrified but unhurt, so we are encouraged.
He charms the neighbors by going for walks with me. If I go outside at the same time he does, he follows me on my walk, meowing at me in distress if I get too far ahead. People have been known to stop their cars and comment on it.
I hope to be able to get him off the meds, but we'll leave him on for a while in hopes that it will help with integration w/ the other cats. I'm glad we kept him even though for a while there it didn't look like that was going to be possible.
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Uprooted, I'm so glad things worked out! I was really rooting for you to figure out a way. Merlin sounds like an amazing cat, and those don't come along so very often. Maybe after a few years the Prozac won't be necessary, but if it is, then it is. He's still happier and safer and calmer and has a good home, which is well worth it! Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I would have loved to be able to take my cats on walks.
I'm glad Merlin is working out for you. I'll be very pleased when I can find a real job, move into a home, and get another cat.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Her most recent less adorable thing (though it is pretty funny) is to curl up in the bathroom sink whenever I am in the bathroom. "Honey, move please. I need to spit."
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: Earlier this afternoon I gave him a few little cat treats. He then began a frantic search for more, and eventually found the foil bag they come in. He proceeded to attack that with such vigor and determination that I saw that he would soon have it torn open, so I hid it in a drawer. Since then, he's returned frequently to the top of the (messy) table where he found that bag.
Treats have to stay hidden in a drawer to keep mine out, too. But now, when they hear the drawer open, it makes is super easy to lure them into the bedroom (where they stay when I'm not home, just so they don't go eating house plants, fake or live).
Mine like to lick ears, and it's definitely affection on their part. Don't know if I can add anything to current strategies against biting, though I have found that a quirt gun/spray bottle does come in handy to discourage other bad habits.
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After about 8 or 9 months on Prozac, Merlin was pretty well integrated with the other cats, had adopted an appropriately submissive "bottom of the totem pole" behavior towards them and was never aggressive towards us at all. So, I decided to try taking him off the meds.
It's been at least 3 months now; I really don't remember exactly when I stopped giving it to him. He is fine. He sleeps less and has reverted to being super nocturnal and is hyper and restless at night. He's a lot more likely to be mischievous and kittenish now than he was while on the meds.
Our senior cat hates him with a deep and heartfelt loathing, but as long as he keeps his distance (which he mostly does), they are fine. It looked for a while like he and middle cat were going to befriend one another, but not so much anymore. They don't seem to hate each other, though. And Allie cracks me up -- sometimes if he gets hyper she will follow him around like the nervous old lady she is, obviously disapproving of his inappropriate behavior and needing to keep an eye on him.
Basically, the meds appear to have calmed whatever fears and anxieties he had around us to the point where he's forgotten about them and unlearned the defensive behaviors. And now we are all able to co-exist peacefully.
Although I'd be happy not to be awakened at 4am most mornings to let the cat out.
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That's wonderful! Yay for you for your patience and perseverance! Yay for Merlin for being such an interesting and intelligent cat! This is a great success story. I'm saving this one for the files. I learned something new about cats from this.
By the way, mine are perfectly integrated now and get along just fine, aside from the occasional squabbles that they all seem to have from time to time. It's so great to finally have us all be able to hang out together and take naps. They seem totally happy indoors, especially because they have the whole house to roam in including the basement in which they can find the occasional bug to chase. I'm sure it does get dull sometimes when you're a hunter and there's nothing to chase down and kill. But oh the pleasures of life are so great. There's sleeping in the sunshine, eating the regular canned food, eating the regular dry food, eating the treat canned food, and the treat dry food, bugging mom to feed us any or all of the above, curling up on a soft sofa or bed, watching the birds, squirrels, and chipmunks through the windows (endlessly fascinating), batting ping pong balls all around the place, getting in mom's lap for a nice purrful petting, and of course our wonderful time we spend together as a family whenever mom goes into the loo, since we all know she's eager for company there and would be terribly lonesome without our companionship.
Mouse, my oldest (18) died peacefully earlier this year from kidney disease after all we could do for her. Now I have two left. Felicity who is 17 and Grace who's 5. There's an adorable small white mother cat who hangs around outside begging for handouts. I want to adopt her and let her have one litter before I get her fixed. But so far she won't let me pet her, though she's lowered the minimum distance I can get to her from about 12 feet to around 5 or 6 feet. She's all white, shorthaired, and has one blue and one green eye. I really like her. I hope she'll let me talk her into coming inside before winter. With her short hair and her small size I'm not at all comfortable that she'll do well out there. I should spend more time talking to her and sitting peacefully near her, so she'll get less shy.
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Tatiana, sorry to hear about your Mouse. How long have your cats been together and how long did it take to get them integrated? Your little white cat sounds like a cutie, hope you get to talk her into comeing in.
Merlin goes into a bit of a frenzy if he's cooped up in the house for too long. I think that's a lot of what the aggression was all about. When he was being kept in a room by himself pre-meds he would often attack me when I opened the door or when I went to leave. And when I say attack, I mean attack. He was scary.
However -- I think the incident I wrote about before when he scratched my face may have been about trying to get my glasses. He has expressed interest in playing with them a couple of times since. He thinks that buttons do not belong on clothing and are definitely supposed to be chewed off. And he is the funniest upside down sleeper I've ever seen. He'll be going full tilt one minute and sprawled out on his back with legs out at all angles the next.
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It took a whole year of Grace being in her room by herself. I realized that wasn't at all good for her, even though I made sure to spend a half-hour or hour a day in there petting her. Every time I tried to let her out, or left the door open so the others could get in, she would end up cowering in a hiding place in the basement. Finally it was feeding her first that made the difference after only a few weeks.
Now they've been together for another year or so since then. All three were getting along well when Mouse was still with us.
Yesterday I sat on the deck after putting out the food and waited quietly until White Kitty ate. I had to back up a few times until I was six feet away, then she tentatively came and ate. We blinked slowly at one another several times (a sign of cat friendship). Today it was rainy and the deck was wet so I stood. She was more wary of me standing, as I'm sure I looked bigger and was more mobile. I stood back about 7 feet and stood watch while she ate. She soon relaxed and ate a whole lot of food so that's good. Maybe I can tame her this way. The Little Prince's Fox said that's how it works.
I need to come up with a name for her, so she doesn't end up being called White Kitty all her life. I need something feminine that evokes angels and unearthly beings. Beings of power and light.
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Oh yeah, I meant to write that I used your idea of feeding the cat first you want to establish dominance with. When we were trying to get the cats used to one another, we would put Merlin in the cat carrier in the living room and let them observe each other. I started feeding the others in the kitchen while he was in the other room. When they were done, I would feed him. I didn't often do this while he was watching initially because they wouldn't eat if he was in the room, but he knew what was going on and that he wasn't first. I think it made a difference.
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Noemon, angel names are a great idea! I'll look for that thread.
Uprooted, I'm glad the idea was useful. I hope it helps. I was so happy when the others started treating Grace nicely after so long. It made me cry. I had felt terrible for adopting Grace and then not being able to give her as good a life as I had hoped, because they were so mean to her. I hated keeping her shut up in that room for so long. Now she's so happy and content it is lovely to see. She stalks and plays all day. As I type she's curled up on a cushion beside my foot fast asleep.
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Today I made a mistake. While she was eating and I was standing watch, a raccoon came onto the deck to eat as well. I've seen them intimidate her many times, so I tried to keep the raccoon away. In the process of trying to scare the raccoon off, though, I scared the cat off as well. That was dumb of me.
Anyway I came up with a name for her. The angel names from the thread were all tailored toward a meaning of someone who was fallen or angry at God or something like that, so none of those struck me as appropriate. But after looking at other angel names and wandering from this to that, I decided to name her Eleusinia, after the Eleusinian mysteries. Though not an angel, still closely associated with a god, and has the extra associations with powers of motherhood, nature, and rebirth. I'll call her Ela for short.
She came back and ate very soon after running away, so I hope I didn't scare her too much.
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Just in case anyone would like to see Ela, here's a vid I took of her sharing the outside food bowl with an acquaintance. Isn't she cute?
You can hear a Towhee in the background announcing its species name, and at one point Grace indicating vocally that she'd like to eat a bird perched on one of the feeders.
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But I really am sorry your cat scratched your face. Could you explain where you were when your cat did it? Were you in it's face? Sitting down at a distance? When I've watched my cat's, (I miss them so very much) play, sometimes Maya, (the smaller one) would hiss at Mao Mao (the older bigger one.) Mao Mao would take a few steps back, stare Maya down and go back in for the kill, usually followed by more hissing and Maya running away with Mao Mao hot on her heals.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Also Claudia's idea of timeouts is an excellent suggestion. Mao Mao and Maya both seemed to respond positively to being shut in a dark closet for a few minutes. Once I forgot about Mao Mao and left here there for about 2 hours. I felt terrible afterward, usually she would meow when she wanted out.![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
petra died
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That was dumb of me.
