posted
Obama seems to want to push this. Giving teachers bonus pay for higher performing students, and a whole checklist of things.
Sounds great on paper (NCLB ring a bell?). Great teachers should have nothing to fear, right?
Wrong.
Right now, if I develop a great lesson plan that fully engages my students and is a great success, I share it. I have found great joy in the past when another teacher has used something I came up with. What if that teacher is competing for incentive pay? Why should I share, allowing their students to gain knowledge from it?
What about teachers that have all honors classes versus those with all those scoring basic on exams?
From the private sector I learned that giving raises based on your manager's opinion of your performance is terrible. It breeds animosity and jealousy.
Why do the powers that be miss the one thing proven time after time to increase student achievement?
SMALLER CLASS SIZES
My wife's school is asking for teachers to volunteer as part of a pilot program. My wife is considering it, but doesn't like the increased number of observations she would have.
[ May 11, 2010, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
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There's been a lot of research done on the problem. Good teachers do a heck of a lot more to raise student achievement than smaller classes.
I think that most teacher performance bonus programs are misguided, because they aren't enough like the private sector. At most businesses, managers giving bonuses for good performance does not breed animosity and jealousy. Additionally, there's a lot of research showing that frequent bonuses (including if to most employees) for good performance has a huge (positive) impact on job performance.
There are a lot of bad teachers unfairly protected by seniority, even as it protects good teachers is. There are a lot of promising young teachers who are unable to stay in teaching because they're always the first fired. Making teachers easier to fire would help eliminate bad teachers. Good teachers would sometimes be fired by bad administrators, but would have little problem being hired at locations with better administration: the answer to bad administrators is not to force students to deal with bad teachers who have sufficient seniority.
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Every program for teacher merit pay I have ever seen was misguided and badly designed. They reward hoop-jumping, NOT good teaching.
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rivka: yep. They're generally designed to prevent administrators from actually having any discretion in awarding teachers, and result in perverse incentives, as teachers just teach to the metrics. Not that some administrators don't require hoop jumping, but my feeling is that at most schools/school systems, administrators really are aware who effective teachers are (whatever the metrics say). Further, I think that if administrators were better able to use that knowledge to reward good teachers, they would pay even more attention to it (and administrators who don't would be removed over time, also).
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Every program for teacher merit pay I have ever seen was misguided and badly designed. They reward hoop-jumping, NOT good teaching.
posted
I had the same conversation with someone a few weeks ago during a 10 man raid in Wow. (We always dicuss things to pass the time between bosses)
Most reward programs based on student test scores won't work, because there are parts of every school district that have children with less opportunity than others. My wife and I volunteer for a non-profit that feeds kids at certain schools that have a large amount of at-risk or homeless kids. My brother is a boy scout and for his Eagle Project helped an elementary school in which 50% (FIFTY) of the children were homeless and lived either on the street or in cars.
These at risk schools receive less money than the schools in richer parts of town, which is a damn shame. The school district would rather pump money into the schools that will generate better test scores. The teachers that I have spoken that work at these at risk schools are there because they want to make a difference in these kid's lives. Money is less of an issue for them.
A teachers at one of the schools told me that one day a child was missing from class and when she found him he was in the bathroom hiding. He had ripped his pants and didn't want to go back to class because he did not have any underwear.
The education system (at least here in Vegas) would work so much better if teachers that taught at these at risk schools were paid more than the schools in richer parts of town.
I may be biased, my grandfather and grandmother each taught elementary school for 30 years at schools in poor neighborhoods.
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Right now a teacher's pay is based on how many credit hours you have and years spent teaching. Neither one of those two have anything to do with what happens in the classroom. If I start teaching the same day as another teacher and I spend my time working on getting my masters, M+15, M+30, and so on and just getting by in the classroom while the other teacher works hard teaching the kids I will be making a considerable amount more money. The system we have now rewards bad teachers and punishes the good ones.
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quote: Why do the powers that be miss the one thing proven time after time to increase student achievement?
SMALLER CLASS SIZES
Because there is still debate on this. Some studies prove this is inconclusive at best and others attribute too much to class size rather than different teaching methods
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Rivka, no. we need to find a way to make it better. Honestly, teachers are not and really never have been the problem. They do have a very powerful union that many times protects people it shouldn't but the problems are caused by Administrators. We need to start fixing the pay issue (and many other issues) by starting at the top and working down.
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quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: They do have a very powerful union
That varies from municipality to municipality. And while unions sometimes keep bad teachers from getting fired, more often they keep all teachers from being mistreated by administrators.
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quote: Why do the powers that be miss the one thing proven time after time to increase student achievement?
SMALLER CLASS SIZES
Because there is still debate on this. Some studies prove this is inconclusive at best and others attribute too much to class size rather than different teaching methods
Alright. I see your point. But class size definitely plays a part. We have a great teacher in our building. Unfortunately one of her classes has 38 students in it. Her classes of 25 are a lot more successful.
Give me 20 - 30 and I should give you similar results. Start showing 40 into my room and I can almost guarantee a decline.
[ May 11, 2010, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: while unions sometimes keep bad teachers from getting fired
Replace 'sometimes' with 'usually'
Even if I grant that (and I'm not sure I do), what do you suggest instead? Municipalities with weak teachers' unions have more problems, IMO.
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quote: Alright. I see your point. But class size definitely plays a part.
Yes it does play a part. I'm looking for the article I read about what the Gates Foundation discovered. Essentially it came down to the biggest factor in education is the teacher. This does not mean a 'highly qualified' teacher but someone who is good at teaching. You can be very highly qualified yet a poor teacher. EDIT: of course right after I post I find it Eschool news
quote: Raikes talked of a study of the Los Angeles Unified School District after an initiative to reduce class sizes led to a liberalization of rules on who could be hired to teach.
He said the district found that whether a teacher had a certificate had no effect on student achievement.
Raikes said the district found that putting a great teacher in a low-income school helped students advance a grade and a half in one year. An ineffective teacher in a high-income school held student achievement to about half a grade of progress in a year.
"We really have to focus classroom by classroom," said Jim Morris, chief of staff at the L.A. district. "Every teacher matters, just like every student matters."
Morris said the most important factor to successful schools is excellent teachers and supporting what they do in the classroom.
We had a terrible teacher here. Terrible. He was transfered to my middle school, because the high school principal was tired of him. No classroom management whatsoever. Gives out worksheets, then goes and sits down.
Last month, while he was in the room, a boy and a girl entered a closet IN THE SAME ROOM, and the girl performed what Monica did with Clinton.
Was the teacher fired? No. He was transfered to teacher jail. We have a technology office in the county, teachers with tenure are sent there when parents don't actually press charges. He is sitting there pushing paper at a desk collecting a similar salary to me.
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The problem is what makes a good teacher and what is under teacher's control versus situation? I don't know what kind of teacher I am, but I tutor no more than 3 kids at a time. The setup is great and the tutoring company has amazing results. One of my students went from low Cs to strong As within less than 2 months. There is nothing different his teacher did to explain that than the teacher next door whose C student's parents didn't have fifty bucks an hour.
I also have a few students who I despair over. None of the teachers at my company can fix them. For example, I have a kid who told me I don't want to be here, my parents are forcing me and I am not going to do anything. I try to talk about his future goals, motivate him, step him through step by step, etc, but it is frustrating beyond belief. I don't know what a teacher with 30 students does with this kid. But none of the teachers at our place feel like we are getting anywhere with him and we have advantages the public school teachers only dream of.
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My husband's principal was awful, school was underperforming, she was ineffective. New principal was hired, old bad principal was given a promotion to district level, where she had no power, but got more money, better hours and easier job. So, it isn't just bad teacher's that are kept around.
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scholarette: this is why decisions about what makes a good teacher ultimately have to be at the discretion of people who can respond to the varied situations teachers encounter.
rivka: even in places with weak unions, there's usually a requirement that, for general reductions in force, the least senior teachers be let go first. Until counterproductive requirements like that are dealt with, I wouldn't expect locations with "weak" unions to perform any better.
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quote:are a lot of promising young teachers who are unable to stay in teaching because they're always the first fired.
While I am not young, I am new and I just got pink-slipped Friday. All first-year teachers were automatically released, effective the last day of school.
quote:Essentially it came down to the biggest factor in education is the teacher. This does not mean a 'highly qualified' teacher but someone who is good at teaching. You can be very highly qualified yet a poor teacher.
I'm a little uneasy at the downplaying of qualifications here...I don't think we can overlook that certification is designed to verify that teachers have the requisite content knowledge. Yes, there is more to good teaching than content knowledge, but we should at least START with content knowledge.
Case in point - we had a math teacher who was not certified...she was working on her certification...and she taught every one of her classes rules of exponents that were just plain wrong. No two ways around it - she was wrong. She eventually had to be let go because she had failed on her fifth attempt at the certification test and this is one case where the test worked. It identified a teacher who did not possess the content knowledge of her subject, and therefore she should not have been teaching.
The students loved her. They thought she was a great teacher, they cried when she left. The parents raised an uproar. She had all the qualities one would expect from a "great" teacher - she could motivate, she inspired them, she encouraged them....but she didn't know math.
Yes, I think much of the "highly qualified" stuff is hoop-jumping (especially as part of the initial certification process), but some of those hoops are actually designed to determine if the person wanting to be a teacher is actually knowledgeable enough about the subject to teach it.
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I'm all for subject matter tests to make sure teachers are qualified.
However, I recall some of the praxis questions one of my friends going into elementary school teaching had to answer being completely ridiculous (I'll have to get some examples from her).
edit: and I a lot of promising young at heart teachers are let go simply due to lack of seniority, too Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Belle, you make a good point. However, as fugu says, plenty of the tests have all kinds of nonsense on them as well.
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The secondary tests are much better than the elementary ones. I know the English praxis was pretty good - it covered literature, evaluation of writing, linguistics, grammar...and quite a few people I graduated with didn't pass it the first go round.
The math praxis that I am currently preparing for is pretty comprehensive as well. Though I am preparing without a graphing calculator and you get to use one on the exam, so it may be easier - I just haven't gone and purchased a graphing caluculator yet.
I've got the study guide for the ESL praxis and it's not bad - it has a section on theory, a section on evaluation of student writing, and a listening portion where you have to identify errors.
Elementary though....yeah, I gotta give you that one. Pretty ridiculous.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: The problem is what makes a good teacher and what is under teacher's control versus situation? I don't know what kind of teacher I am, but I tutor no more than 3 kids at a time. The setup is great and the tutoring company has amazing results. One of my students went from low Cs to strong As within less than 2 months. There is nothing different his teacher did to explain that than the teacher next door whose C student's parents didn't have fifty bucks an hour.
I also have a few students who I despair over. None of the teachers at my company can fix them. For example, I have a kid who told me I don't want to be here, my parents are forcing me and I am not going to do anything. I try to talk about his future goals, motivate him, step him through step by step, etc, but it is frustrating beyond belief. I don't know what a teacher with 30 students does with this kid. But none of the teachers at our place feel like we are getting anywhere with him and we have advantages the public school teachers only dream of.
At least the parents are making him go to school. The only thing I would suggest is find out what interests he has and play on those. You may have to give him a different assignment than everyone else, but if it will help this kid out, then it will be worth it. If he likes video games, try to come up with assignments centered around that. It may be more work for you, but if it can help this kid out, it will all be worth it.
My grandfather taught a kid in elementary school back in the 60's that was a holy terror. He always talked back to his other teachers and was placed in my grandfather's class because my grandfather demanded respect. He was very stern with his students but made sure that they knew he was strict because he wanted what was best for them. The kid was unruly one day in my grandfathers class, and my grandfather took him outside and talked to him. Turns out the child's father had passed away and he hadn't gotten over it yet. The kid just needed to cry and get it out there in the open, and once my grandfather knew this information, he took this kid under his wing and paid more attention to him. The kid shaped up immediately.
My grandfather did not see this kid again until he retired. During his retirement party this kid got up and told the story of his experience in my grandfather's class. The kid grew up and had become a mayor in Las Vegas and also served as a Senator.
You never know as a teacher who your students may be one day.
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My husband aced the math tests and teaching tests (whatever the perfect score on them was) and he left furious. He came home and wrote some of them down and explained in detail why every single answer was technically wrong. Tutoring for the student's standardized tests using their prior test examples, I get frustrated because sometimes you know what the right answer is and what answer they are looking for and those two aren't the same. I have to decide how to teach that skill and still have the kids do well on the test.
My husband has since changed professions and is nos a quality engineer, meaning he spends all day everyday making sure everyone is exactly and precisely right. He is in heaven.
ETA: I have actually tried tailoring assignments to the kids interests, but this kid claims no hobbies or interests. I only have 3 students, so I have a lot of flexibility.
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quote:Neither one of those two have anything to do with what happens in the classroom.
They don't have anything to do with what happens in the classroom? C'mon. Surely they're good for something. I'm not saying they're the main ingredient or anything, but surely we ought to increase pay in accordance with experience and training. I'm not saying by how much, or by how much more or less than student performance (which ought to be the primary measure).
quote:We need to start fixing the pay issue (and many other issues) by starting at the top and working down.
You'd be in favor of increasing state and local taxes in support of this, yes?
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: You'd be in favor of increasing state and local taxes in support of this, yes? [/QB]
How about cutting waste in education spending. Like buying every English classroom a 35 inch television in my school. Or spending millions on a gradebook system that only works half the time. Or millions on an educational program called America's Choice which takes stuff we should be doing like warm-ups, displaying students work, establising rules and procedures. Renaming them focus activities, artifacts, and rituals and routines. Seriously my county spent millions on renaming what good teachers should already be doing.
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Expenditures like the 35 inch television usually don't come from the same budget as teacher pay. The school system wouldn't get any more money for other things (except in the category it came from, which is probably a capital fund if it happened in conjunction with a renovation) by reducing spending on items like that.
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There is an incredible amount of waste and it's all in the wrong areas. For example, Title 1 funds that can be used on "instructional supplies" but won't cover "audio-visual supplies". Therefore, we have thousands of dollars in Title 1 funds we have to find ways to spend it but we can't order replacement bulbs for ones that burn out in our projectors. Teachers have to spend their own money if they want projectors that actually work, and they cost hundreds of dollars, while we spend thousands on coaching books for our writing assessment that, because of Title 1 money releasing schedule, arrive after the test is already taken.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: while unions sometimes keep bad teachers from getting fired
Replace 'sometimes' with 'usually'
Even if I grant that (and I'm not sure I do), what do you suggest instead? Municipalities with weak teachers' unions have more problems, IMO.
It is related to a number of spurious correlations. Sadly, the unions have become a maladaptive force in the quality of our education. The solution is ... um, well, I don't know.
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quote:You'd be in favor of increasing state and local taxes in support of this, yes?
Blasphemy! You obviously don't live in the great state of Florida where we know that quality education is obtained by cutting taxes.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Sadly, the unions have become a maladaptive force in the quality of our education.
Still pretty sure I disagree with this, especially as a blanket statement, covering, what, every school district in the US?
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: There is an incredible amount of waste and it's all in the wrong areas. For example, Title 1 funds that can be used on "instructional supplies" but won't cover "audio-visual supplies". Therefore, we have thousands of dollars in Title 1 funds we have to find ways to spend it but we can't order replacement bulbs for ones that burn out in our projectors. Teachers have to spend their own money if they want projectors that actually work, and they cost hundreds of dollars, while we spend thousands on coaching books for our writing assessment that, because of Title 1 money releasing schedule, arrive after the test is already taken.
Bought my bulb on Ebay for $150. Kept the burnt out one to replace the new one with if I ever leave the school.
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I haven't read all of the posts up to now, but I'm curious if anyone has any idea how merit pay would work for, say... a band director. Any ideas? My class is not a subject that is often tested with standardized tests, so that's out.
If you base a teacher's pay on student achievement (a nebulous concept to begin with), then determine student achievement using standardized tests, this primarily applies to math and language arts teachers and occasionally to science. Social studies, foreign language, fine/performing arts, other electives, etc. are out on a limb. For math and science, you're going to find out that teachers have even MORE incentive to teach to the test, not teach the kid. This is NOT what we need.
And can you imagine the poor P.E. teachers? Let's base a P.E. teacher's pay on student achievement in athletics. The more obese kids you have in your class, the lower your pay.
I'm not going to disagree that the current system of a pay scale based on years in the district (not necessarily co-equal with actual teaching experience, by the way) and degree /level of credits earned is a flawed system. I can go take credits that won't make me a better teacher, but will increase my pay. I regard myself as a superior teacher compared with many who have several years more experience, but I'm earning less than they are.
Regarding the debate for/against teacher unions: I seem to recall a relatively recent OSC Reviews Everything or WorldWatch essay that discussed unions (though not teacher unions) and pretty well summed up the benefits and evils. I don't recall the detail, but if I have time later, I'll find the link and post it, since it probably has bearing on this debate. I side with Rivka, though, in that making blanket statements about unions is neither accurate nor helpful.
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BandoCommando- obviously, we get rid of pe, arts, etc. Those are useless wastes of time, right? Or at least that is our school boards current view.
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Going back to the first post, I considered this as a plot for a Murder Mystery or Political Thriller, but I never get around to actually writing my ideas...
Here it is.
Saxony Meritz School System discovers the ultimate formula for creating, retaining, and rewarding teachers, increasing test scores, and lowering drop out rates. Its a wonderful combination of rewards, positive reinforcement, guidelines and technology.
In the marketplace of education, they built the better mouse trap. They are winners and get lots of extra funding for their efforts.
Why should they tell other districts what their formula is?
Fame? Duty? The Kids in other schools? All of these may be important, but if other schools use the same system then Saxon would lose some of its funding for being so successful. Their own kids could be injured by sharing their success.
Fame can be garnered by faking it. In fact, by offering a faulty version of their formula--or even by selling such a version--they can gain fame and be seen to be doing their duty. When other schools try their faulty system, and get much more limited results, they simply claim, "your not doing it right."
Eventually one of the liberal minded teachers breaks and tries to go public with the real secret formula for that districts success. She ends up dead and our detective must find out why.
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In regards to non-math, science, and English teachers. The program in my county is going to also address professional growth of teachers, not just student achievement.
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quote: They don't have anything to do with what happens in the classroom? C'mon. Surely they're good for something. I'm not saying they're the main ingredient or anything, but surely we ought to increase pay in accordance with experience and training.
So I get paid more simply by showing up? I come in, scrape by and do as little as I can, and get the same raise as someone who is a much better teacher? More college credits does not equal more 'training'.
quote: You'd be in favor of increasing state and local taxes in support of this, yes?
There is no need to increase state and local taxes to support this.
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quote: For example, Title 1 funds that can be used on "instructional supplies" but won't cover "audio-visual supplies". Therefore, we have thousands of dollars in Title 1 funds we have to find ways to spend it but we can't order replacement bulbs for ones that burn out in our projectors.
This isn't exactly true. There are ways to buy bulbs using Title I funds. Most likely you can't because of Administrators who don't know what they are doing with Title I. Plus the Admins should know that bulbs will burn out and plan accordingly. There is no reason for you to have buy your own bulbs. I'm sure the money is there but the Admins short certain line items in their budget so they have teachers telling stories about how they have to spend hundreds of dollars out of their own pocket for supplies.
quote: while we spend thousands on coaching books for our writing assessment that, because of Title 1 money releasing schedule, arrive after the test is already taken.
Far too often, Admins wait until the very end of the Title I grant to spend money causing what you are describing. This leads to a rush in spending all of the money, wasting a lot of it, so they don't 'lose' it. Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
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The question is "how do you define a better teacher."
Dark, you say that experience is not the answer. Two teachers show up every day for 10 years and get the same pay. One is bad and the other is good. That is not fair. (I find it is average pay structure in most corporate fields other than sales--that experience is the basis of pay rates. Even Senators gain perks and pay from experience, but they say that is not good enough for teaching.)
The idea behind experience is that those who are good at what they do will continue to do it. Those who are bad will quit eventually themselves. It doesn't work well.
So how do we define "A good teacher."
Is it by test results? Then those who teach the test--who jump through administrative hoops--are paid as "good teachers".
Is it by who the children say are their best teachers?
Is it by who the parents think is the best teacher?
Is it the one who works the most hours? Helps the most with the PTA?
The question isn't if we should give merit page, its how do we define merit.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Dark, you say that experience is not the answer. Two teachers show up every day for 10 years and get the same pay. One is bad and the other is good. That is not fair. (I find it is average pay structure in most corporate fields other than sales--that experience is the basis of pay rates. Even Senators gain perks and pay from experience, but they say that is not good enough for teaching.)
You are agreeing with me that it is not fair but you are somehow making some kind of case that it is fair because Senators do it? You are calling it 'experience' but it isn't really experience at all, it's length of employment. There is a difference. All of those questions, plus more, can be factors in determining a good teacher or deserving of merit pay. Unless you are saying there is no way to know if a teacher is good or not?
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: I find it is average pay structure in most corporate fields other than sales--that experience is the basis of pay rates.
I think experience is part of the pay structure, but by no means all of it in other professional fields - at least not engineering. An employee is typically going to get a bump every year just because it's another year, but one person might get a bigger bump (maybe a much bigger bump) for other reasons. Who works more hours, who is willing to come in on the weekend to get a job done and most importantly, who gets jobs done on time and under budget? Those are the ones who make profit for the company and get rewarded for it.
I think teachers should get merit pay. I come from a family of teachers - good teachers - and it stinks seeing them get paid the same as the teacher down the hall who does the bare minimum necessary. Basing it on test scores isn't the way to do it though.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by zgator: I think teachers should get merit pay. I come from a family of teachers - good teachers - and it stinks seeing them get paid the same as the teacher down the hall who does the bare minimum necessary. Basing it on test scores isn't the way to do it though.
I'm not opposed to the idea of basing pay on merit. I know several young teachers who would benefit financially from this, and I know that some complacent teachers would be driven to work harder on behalf of their students given appropriate incentive (and money usually works). Their are several problems, however, and I haven't seen or heard satisfactory answers to these problems in the many discussions I have witnessed on the topic:
1) how do we define merit in a way that promotes student learning, but doesn't merely encourage teachers to 'teach to the test'.
2) how do we define merit in a fair/equitable way for teachers whose subject areas are not tested?
3) if merit is defined partly on student achievement, how can you encourage teachers to work with at-risk students, special education students, English Language Learners, and other groups that tend to struggle more academically? We need quality teachers working with these students at least as much as we need quality teachers working with the TAG kids.
4) How can we establish merit pay while still finding ways to promote and encourage the sharing of ideas and methodology between teachers? Like the OP said, merit pay might create competition as teachers fear for the loss of their merit pay as other teachers adopt successful practices.
There are other concerns, but I think these are the biggest ones, IMO.
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In the private sector, merit pay is subjective. I can't speak for all companies, but I'm not aware of any that say you will receive x% increase in pay if you work y hours of overtime, or your profit margin is z. Maybe determining a teacher's merit pay could be similar with the majority relying on evaluations by principals, dept. heads, etc. That would take care of (4) because part of the evaluation could include sharing ideas with others.
Regarding (3), those areas could receive a standard increase in pay if you're willing to take them on.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: Oh, of course not. Everything can come from waste and inefficiency.
You don't even know what the problem with Admins are yet you are 100% positive that we need to raise taxes to fix it. That type of mentality is a huge issue and the cause of a lot of problems from Admins.
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