quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick:
quote:Originally posted by Tristan:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
Either this is an obscure reference to the eucharist -- in which case I say, dude, we all know it's a metaphore
No.
?
Catholics, at least, don't believe that the eucharist is a metaphore or a symbol, but rather that it actually is the body and blood of Christ.
Posts: 1547 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Well, by "metaphor" (yes, I spelled it wrong originally) I was including spiritual manifestations, however real they are deemed to be. Or are you saying Catholics claim that the bread and wine, once properly blessed, are indistinguishable from physical human flesh and blood? Because that would be kind of gross.
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quote:Well, by "metaphor" (yes, I spelled it wrong originally) I was including spiritual manifestations, however real they are deemed to be. Or are you saying Catholics claim that the bread and wine, once properly blessed, are indistinguishable from physical human flesh and blood?
Even that usage of metaphor is inaccurate as a description of Catholic beliefs. That doesn't mean that the second second sentence is the only alternative to a "spiritual manifestation."
quote:"Substance" here means what something is in itself. (For more on the philosophical concept, see Substance theory.) A hat's shape is not the hat itself, nor is its colour the hat, nor is its size, nor its softness to the touch, nor anything else about it perceptible to the senses. The hat itself (the "substance") has the shape, the colour, the size, the softness and the other appearances, but is distinct from them. While the appearances, which are referred to by the philosophical term accidents, are perceptible to the senses, the substance is not.
When at his Last Supper Jesus said: "This is my body", what he held in his hands had all the appearances of bread: these "accidents" remained unchanged. However, the Roman Catholic Church believes that, in accordance with what Jesus said, the underlying reality was changed: the "substance" of the bread was converted to that of his body. In other words, it actually was his body, while all the appearances open to the senses or to scientific investigation were still those of bread, exactly as before. The Church holds that the same change of the substance of the bread and of the wine occurs at the consecration of the Eucharist.
The bread is changed into Jesus' body, but, because Jesus, risen from the dead, is living, not only his body is present, but Jesus as a whole, body and blood, soul and divinity. The same holds for the wine changed into his blood.
In accordance with this belief that Christ is really, truly and substantially present under the remaining appearances of bread and wine, and continues to be present as long as those appearances remain, the Catholic Church preserves the consecrated elements, generally in a church tabernacle, for administering Holy Communion to the sick and dying, and also for the secondary, but still highly prized, purpose of adoring Christ present in the Eucharist.
posted
Now some people may think I'm a bit off in the head, but when you combine spear using primates and arguments over religious dogma, well, it just can't end pretty.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Now some people may think I'm a bit off in the head, but when you combine spear using primates and arguments over religious dogma, well, it just can't end pretty.
quote:Now some people may think I'm a bit off in the head, but when you combine spear using primates and arguments over religious dogma, well, it just can't end pretty.
Many thanks to Dan - I was wondering what kind of excuse I was going to have to come up with to post this link in this thread. Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Dagonee, the terms "substance" and "accidents" as used in the text you quoted seem, to me, to be interchangeable with the philosophical concepts of spirit and materia. I realise that "spiritual manifestations" has other connotations that may not fit with what is believed to happen during the transformation of bread and wine in connection with the Eucharist, but I still think this phrase -- or "metaphor" -- could be used as an umbrella term under which the Catholic conception of Eucharist could shelter. If you don't agree, that's fine with me. As long as no one -- except the Mormon's with their baby eating rituals, naturally -- is actually consuming human flesh it's all good.
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Tristan, the spirit/material distinction is quite different from the substance/accident distinction, and they are not interchangeable.
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To regress to a bit earlier in the conversation (I haven't been around much, plus I am naturally slow), I really wonder about post-partum depression/psychosis with Brittney Spears. I wonder more why this hasn't been raised much as an issue.
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I have wondered about that. Does using meth put you more at risk for that? Because several former meth users have told me that her recent behavior is pretty typical for meth users.
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You know, I have no idea. It's just something I think should be on the differential for any recent mother with unexpected and concerning behaviors.
Even if there is no reason to believe meth use would exacerbate the problem, they still could be co-existing causes. Depression has a long history of being treated by self-medication of one sort or another, too.
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I thought (maybe wrongly so) that the rehab was just for substance abuse. If it's a good clinic, they'll evaluate for mood disorders as well. That's encouraging.
It's just that in my admittedly minimal reading about her problems in the mass media, I haven't seen much dicussion about PPD as a possibility. "Dooce" got me thinking about this, actually.
---
She gave birth in September of 2006, right? Just about one year after the prior birth, from what I'm reading.
From eMedicine on postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis may look like a maniac episode: "The condition resembles a rapidly evolving manic or mixed episode with symptoms such as restlessness and insomnia, irritability, rapidly shifting depressed or elated mood, and disorganized behavior." Onset would have been in the first few weeks after delivery, but it can wax and wane after that.
For comparison, an acute methamphetamine abuse episode also looks like mania: "Amphetamines stimulate the central nervous system (CNS), which results in one or more clinical effects: inducing euphoria; intensifying emotions; altering self-esteem; and increasing alertness, aggression, and sexual appetite." Sounds quite similar, actually.
posted
Well, the child endangerment would fit with PPD/PPP, for sure. But from what I've heard the hair-shaving-off has been done by more than one person on meth.
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Which is one reason why it might well be a co-occurring problem, yes? I can well imagine a woman with PPD who had used meth in the past deciding to use it again, especially if she was not in a time of good judment for other reasons.
I'm not diagnosing her, mind you. I'm just surprised it wasn't raised as a possible reason.
I was also surprised that the discussions I saw (again, limited in my perspective about this) about the astronaut who kidnapped another woman didn't seem to consider the possibility of psychosis. They seemed -- at least by my read -- to assume her behavior was fully under her control.
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I agree that it could definitely be self-medication (although I've known more women to self-medicate with alcohol than with meth, but then I don't know a LOT of illegal drug users) and, for what it's worth, I've heard the possibility of PPD/PPP raised in most conversations I've been in about her for more than a year now. (When I haven't raised it myself.)
I didn't even hear about the other, but I think I would ASSUME psychosis first in a case like that...
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Well, that's reassuring! *grin (I mean that PPD/PPP was being raised in many conversations and that you, too, would think of psychosis as well.)
I think I need to get out more. Or, at least, get my c'leb gossip from more thoughtful sources. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Ah! You might be unfamiliar with the concept of "thread drift," which -- although not unique to Hatrack -- has a long and vast history here. Let me see if I can find some links for you.
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If Britney spent more time with primates learning to make spears and hunt for food, and less time with Paris Hilton learning to be a pathetic waste of human life, she and her baby would both be much better off.
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I certainly wouldn't recommend making many of her public choices if one is seeking lasting happiness.
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I'm familiar with it, Claudia. There have been few threads that I have been involved in that didn't drift in this manner.
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I gotta admit, I love the thread drift. Though it means that I've probably missed some interesting conversations that started out as threads I checked and decided that I didn't care about enough to read again.
Besides, you can always steer the conversation back to the original topic if you want.
Whether or not Spears has post-partum mental health problems, it's always a good thing to raise awareness and to have compassion for those who do. Having depression or other similar illnesses can really make it hard to do even the most basic things--I can't imagine trying to take care of a baby while depressed.
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Okay, then, Reshpeckobiggle. I was struggling with the HR search engine -- never a pretty thing. *grin
Shigosei, I agree. And sometimes depression is agitated (not the more typically thought-of scenario of slowing down and freezing up). Additionally, it looks like post-partum psychosis is associated with bipolar disorder, in which the mania would definitely not look like depression and might lead someone to assume it could not be related to postpartum issues.
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Well, ClaudiaTherese, at least the thread drifted in the right direction. People here are talking seriously about Post-Partum Depression now. It could have been another mindless celebrity-based thread.
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Clue is one of those films that movie reviewers disdained heavily. DVDs of it can be bought dirt cheap. And yet...everyone I know personally who's seen it loves it.
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Clue is one of those films that movie reviewers disdained heavily. DVDs of it can be bought dirt cheap. And yet...everyone I know personally who's seen it loves it.
I definitely don't know either. I searched recent posts for the word "clue" to see if he was responding to a post in a different thread by accident, but no such luck. I am currently attributing it to the recent adoption of crack-smoking as a sacrament in Puffy's ward. Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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The European Court of Human Rights has agreed to hear whether chimpanzees are legally persons. Interestingly, this might well be just the right level of hard case for the EU Court to win respect for its own (future) assertions of preeminence. ie A ruling in favor of the chimp would not be explosive enough for the politicians to dismiss the Court out of hand (except for campaign posturing), yet would torque off LARGE numbers of the people those politicians must cater to.
posted
Note that Santino not only collects rocks for his weapons cache but also breaks&shapes concrete to make his own missiles.
"[Forward planning] implies that [chimpanzees] have a highly developed consciousness, including life-like mental simulations of potential events," Dr Osvath said. "They most probably have an 'inner world' like we have when reviewing past episodes of our lives or thinking of days to come..."
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: The European Court of Human Rights has agreed to hear whether chimpanzees are legally persons. Interestingly, this might well be just the right level of hard case for the EU Court to win respect for its own (future) assertions of preeminence. ie A ruling in favor of the chimp would not be explosive enough for the politicians to dismiss the Court out of hand (except for campaign posturing), yet would torque off LARGE numbers of the people those politicians must cater to.
I have a friend who likes to say that he is fully behind giving Chimps "human" status the moment they can present their own arguments.
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: The European Court of Human Rights has agreed to hear whether chimpanzees are legally persons. Interestingly, this might well be just the right level of hard case for the EU Court to win respect for its own (future) assertions of preeminence. ie A ruling in favor of the chimp would not be explosive enough for the politicians to dismiss the Court out of hand (except for campaign posturing), yet would torque off LARGE numbers of the people those politicians must cater to.
I have a friend who likes to say that he is fully behind giving Chimps "human" status the moment they can present their own arguments.
Considering that chimps have successfully been taught ASL with some degree of fluency, it may not be too far off...
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Do you have a link for that, kq? I've heard of gorillas and bonobos learning a few hundred signs, but that's not the same thing as learning sign language.
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It's been nearly a year since the European Court of Human Rights had agreed to review the Austrian Supreme Court's decision that chimps are only property, yet still no news generated since then concerning the progress of the case.
Karta uses a stick to twist wires together to short-circuit an electric fence designed to prevent escape from her enclosure. More tellingly, she seems to recognize the purpose of guards armed with (tranquilizer) guns.
posted
Noticed possibly deliberate editorializing in the reportage: The Mirror and SkyNews used stones and pounds to report Karta's weight, though the other UK news reports (that I've seen) used kilograms. In the UK*nowadays, stones and pounds are most commonly used to describe weight of humans, and kilograms are commonly used to describe weights of other things. May not have been deliberate: coulda been a subconcious grouping of orangutans in with humans, which'd be revealing in itself. * Or could be I've misunderstood what I've been told about common useage.
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