quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Check your premises. Your question contains at least two unsupported (and ill-defined) allegations on the same order.
It would not surprise me if that is true but if you do not explain, I may not figure that out and continue wallowing in ignorance. Without explanation, you just sound like a bitter man that wants to attack me for no good reason. So again, if my allegations are unsupported and ill-defined, please tell me why.
No good reason? Seriously?
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: If you were in Israel, people would call you an Ish or Isha - a Man or Woman, depending on your gender. Would you call yourself an Ish or Isha? Surely your logic isn't that we can't call people words that they wouldn't use in their own language. Otherwise we'd all stop speaking, or all learn the same language.
Goy is a word. It does not mean Barbarian. It means Nation. It is fondly used at times - a "shabbos-goy" is a non-Jew who helps out on the Sabbath.
I understand your apprehensiveness about a culture you are not familiar with. That's what this thread is for. Familiarize yourself. But I hope you are open enough to really learn about who we are.
Believe me, I am very open minded and I am not asking these questions to start a flame war or accuse anyone of anything. While I am not a particularly religious man, I do have an intense interest in culture, history and religion. Also, if I ever were to turn to religion, I think I would seek out a Rabbi to talk to first. Based on my limited, outsiders understanding, Jews seem to have a very practical and rational approach to religion that appeals to me.
Now back to words. I hear what you are saying and do not disagree. Especially from a Jew's perspective, I can see where no malicious intent exists (except perhaps for the few racist Jews you mentioned). But I think your example of ish and isha are a bad analogy. If what you said is correct, they are a direct translation of he and she. Goy is not a direct translation of "white" or "male" or "American" or "Technician" or any of the other words I might use to describe myself.
What I mean is that throughout history, any word with a meaning and/or usage even remotely similar to "one who is somehow different from me and my people" has either become a disparaging word when used by those people, or comes to be taken as disparaging by those being called by it.
Now, this is my first encounter with the word "goy" so I am just trying to understand it better and see what people think about it. While you say it has no foul meanings, I get the impression that if I went up to any of the few Muslims I know and called them that, they might not appreciate it. Is this true or not? Not that I intend to do it, just trying to understand.
So... when Rivka and I explained to you where the word "goy" comes from, you decided to just ignore that? We use the term for ourselves in the Sabbath afternoon services, and Monday and Thursday mornings in morning services. God uses it for us in the Bible. What exactly do you not understand?
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: How about this one: isn't the Jewish law that says it's okay to practice usury upon non-Jews, but not among Jews, kind of sickening? Doesn't that effectively mean "it's okay to exploit non-Jews but not your fellow Jews"? Is it possible that this sort of behavior has historically provoked anti-semitism amongst people who hosted Jews?
There's no Jewish law that says anything of the sort. Jewish law says that we can charge non-Jews interest. Period. Something that most people find entirely normal in society. We're specifically prohibited from charging one another interest, or paying it to one another. What does that have to do with you?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The "goyim means cattle" idiocy is antisemitic babble. Given your Arabic name, I can see how you might have been exposed to it.
Thank you for answering my question. My second question is about "anti-semetism." Why have so many nations and peoples through out history been "anti-semetic"? Did all these people suddenly and inexplicably turn hateful or did they all collectively come to see the same unpleasant aspects about Jews? Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews. [/QB]
Anti-semitism is, and has always been, primarily based on our refusal to stop being different. Xenophobia is more the norm in society than it is an exception. I'd add that there's a great deal of jealousy as well. You can see this in both Christianity and Islam. Christianity claims to be a correct ending to Judaism. Which requires an ending, really. If Judaism is true, Christianity cannot be.
In Islam, Muhammed started by buddying up to the Jews. Just like Martin Luther did centuries later. Both of them figured that a few smiles and pats on the head, and we'd jump aboard. But we didn't. And in both cases, our refusal was met with fury and rage and lots and lots of blood.
Granted, some antisemites are simply victims of their upbringing. They don't know any better, because their parents taught them that way. There are two girls who sing as "Prussian Blue", who I think would fall into that category. Vicious little Nazi brats, but when you're that evil at that early an age, it's got to be the fault of whoever is putting that sort of hatred into their heads.
So I wonder... are you the Prussian Blue type of antisemite, or are you just evil on your own?
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posted
You're nuts if you think I'm going to post in this thread after the way you opened it. I'm going to respond to you in the other Q/A thread.
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posted
Lisa, would you please remove my name from this. I am about as un-antisemitic as they come for a non-Jew. If anything I said offended you I am deeply and truly sorry but I thought I made it clear that my question was strictly out of curiosity and a desire to understand more. Wasn't that the whole point of the thread in the first place?
Instead of accusing me and attacking me in this manner you could have simply talked to me and avoided all this. If you continue in this manner I will quite happily leave this forum and never post on it again. While that might seem appealing to you, I will be leaving with a somewhat lower opinion of you and the faith you claim to uphold.
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posted
Seeing this thread here is like watching hatrack try to crawl its way back into its own self-imposed dark ages. it's really that dumb and unnecessary.
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quote:Originally posted by Parkour: Don't leave, wingracer. Stick around and see if lisa's filth gets reigned in.
Seriously, if someone would point out to me HOW or WHY I am antisemitic I would gladly apologize and never do it again but no one seems to want to address that.
Except maybe for Buddhism, Judaism is the last religion I would be against. I have about as much respect for Jews as a respectful atheist can.
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posted
Just wanted to post on this thread and say that the conversation is continuing on the Q/A thread.
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quote:Originally posted by Parkour: Don't leave, wingracer. Stick around and see if lisa's filth gets reigned in.
Seriously, if someone would point out to me HOW or WHY I am antisemitic I would gladly apologize and never do it again but no one seems to want to address that.
You've done nothing wrong, and this thread is about as worthless as it seems. I second sticking around to see what comes of it first.
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posted
I think you're making a big mistake. This discussion is absolutely about antisemitism and antisemitic stereotypes. You're cooperating in derailing a thread that's lasted a pretty long time. Thanks for that.
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quote:Originally posted by Wingracer: Lisa, would you please remove my name from this. I am about as un-antisemitic as they come for a non-Jew. If anything I said offended you I am deeply and truly sorry but I thought I made it clear that my question was strictly out of curiosity and a desire to understand more. Wasn't that the whole point of the thread in the first place?
Instead of accusing me and attacking me in this manner you could have simply talked to me and avoided all this. If you continue in this manner I will quite happily leave this forum and never post on it again. While that might seem appealing to you, I will be leaving with a somewhat lower opinion of you and the faith you claim to uphold.
I don't really care. There are ways you could have asked your questions that wouldn't have come across like the typical antisemite. You chose otherwise. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I don't really care. There are ways you could have asked your questions that wouldn't have come across like the typical antisemite. You chose otherwise. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Again, please explain how and I won't do it again. I made NO accusations, just asked for further clarification and at least one person has been nice enough to do that and I have learned a lot from it.
I don't blame you one bit for being angry at Sa'eed but what does that have to do with me?
If this is how you are going to talk to everyone that asks a question, you are going to do far more to encourage antisemitism than I or even Sa'eed ever will.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I don't really care. There are ways you could have asked your questions that wouldn't have come across like the typical antisemite. You chose otherwise. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Again, please explain how and I won't do it again. I made NO accusations, just asked for further clarification and at least one person has been nice enough to do that and I have learned a lot from it.
I don't blame you one bit for being angry at Sa'eed but what does that have to do with me?
If this is how you are going to talk to everyone that asks a question, you are going to do far more to encourage antisemitism than I or even Sa'eed ever will.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I don't really care. There are ways you could have asked your questions that wouldn't have come across like the typical antisemite. You chose otherwise. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Again, please explain how and I won't do it again. I made NO accusations, just asked for further clarification and at least one person has been nice enough to do that and I have learned a lot from it.
I don't blame you one bit for being angry at Sa'eed but what does that have to do with me?
If this is how you are going to talk to everyone that asks a question, you are going to do far more to encourage antisemitism than I or even Sa'eed ever will.
You want an explanation? Sure. Here's your first post over there:
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer:
quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.
Ok people, please don't burn me at the stake for saying this but I actually think that is an interesting point. I know you all hate this guy but I'm very curious to hear some opinions about this.
Now I'm not a Jew (or Christian or Muslim for that matter) so I have no idea of the precise meanings, context or intent within the culture of all these words Jews have for other people so I can't comment on their appropriateness and have never given it any thought before but I can see where some more sensitive types might take exception.
Your rational thoughts please.
So. Sa'eed ibn Kalba comes in here and starts spewing things about Jews having bad names for non-Jews. Your very first reaction is to ignore every single response pointing out that this is untrue, and ask, "Yeah, how about that? What's with those bad names? How come it's bad for Christians and Muslims to do it, but it's okay for Jews?"
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I don't really care. There are ways you could have asked your questions that wouldn't have come across like the typical antisemite. You chose otherwise. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Again, please explain how and I won't do it again. I made NO accusations, just asked for further clarification and at least one person has been nice enough to do that and I have learned a lot from it.
I don't blame you one bit for being angry at Sa'eed but what does that have to do with me?
If this is how you are going to talk to everyone that asks a question, you are going to do far more to encourage antisemitism than I or even Sa'eed ever will.
QFT. Check yourself Lisa.
Armoth, just because you're into touchy feely "Let's sit down and pow-wow with the antisemites" doesn't mean that I need to check myself. Wingracer came in, ignoring all of the responses to ibn Kalba that explained that "goy" is not a negative term for non-Jews, and acted as though ibn Kalba had asked a reasonable question. What do you see as being the difference between Wingracer's question and "Is it true that you've stopped beating your wife?"
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posted
That was a tactful question and it ends up with you spitting out 'antisemite!' as though you were dead-set on being an angry, hyperreflexive parody.
Yes, I'm real convinced. Obviously Wingracer deserves this baldly emotional outlash on your part.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I don't really care. There are ways you could have asked your questions that wouldn't have come across like the typical antisemite. You chose otherwise. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Again, please explain how and I won't do it again. I made NO accusations, just asked for further clarification and at least one person has been nice enough to do that and I have learned a lot from it.
I don't blame you one bit for being angry at Sa'eed but what does that have to do with me?
If this is how you are going to talk to everyone that asks a question, you are going to do far more to encourage antisemitism than I or even Sa'eed ever will.
You want an explanation? Sure. Here's your first post over there:
quote:Originally posted by Wingracer:
quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: Also, isn't it disturbing that Jews have these names for non-Jews and their use isn't controversial amongst Jews? It is bad for a Christian to say "heathens" or a Muslim to say "infidel" but Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews.
Ok people, please don't burn me at the stake for saying this but I actually think that is an interesting point. I know you all hate this guy but I'm very curious to hear some opinions about this.
Now I'm not a Jew (or Christian or Muslim for that matter) so I have no idea of the precise meanings, context or intent within the culture of all these words Jews have for other people so I can't comment on their appropriateness and have never given it any thought before but I can see where some more sensitive types might take exception.
Your rational thoughts please.
So. Sa'eed ibn Kalba comes in here and starts spewing things about Jews having bad names for non-Jews. Your very first reaction is to ignore every single response pointing out that this is untrue, and ask, "Yeah, how about that? What's with those bad names? How come it's bad for Christians and Muslims to do it, but it's okay for Jews?"
The only responses to him had been about the word "goy". He used "names", notice the plural. I guess I should have clarified but I was interested in what were these "words", again notice the plural, what was their meaning and use to Jews and what was their meaning to non Jews being called by these names. At no time did I use the word "bad" and I made no accusations. I was just concerned that because he is clearly antisemitic, no one would bother giving a rational response to his post (which I feel is perfectly justifiable) so I was hoping that my post would get a rational response to help me understand more. It was NEVER intended as any sort of support for what he was saying.
I do not ask for an apology, be upset all you want but I do ask you remove my name from your first post.
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posted
What Lisa said. This is not actually a difficult point. Your so-called question was actually a loaded question making two accusations: (1) "Jews have all these disparaging terms for non-Jews." (2) Furthermore, "their use isn't controversial amongst Jews" You didn't ask whether these were true. You took for granted that they were, and asked for an explanation.
I quite sensibly replied with the canonical loaded question, which you, of course, failed to answer. (If you were being at all consistent with what you claim I should have done, you would have told me why you have not stopped beating your wife, or perhaps you might have noted that you don't have a wife to beat, or perhaps you would have claimed that you do have one but don't beat her, or whatever. Though that would have been just as silly and unwarranted as my addressing your claims would have been.) The intellectually honest response would have been to notice the obvious parallel and take back your accusations, or at least grant that they are accusations and back them up, rather than feigning innocence.
Frankly, Lisa is showing remarkable restraint this time around.
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posted
He used "names". Without even suggesting what those "names" might be. You accepted that there are such names and asked us to explain why we thought they were okay. Had you asked, "What are these names that you're talking about", that would have been one thing. But you didn't.
Wingracer, I'll make you a deal. Tell me you completely misspoke. That you hadn't noticed the responses to ibn Kalba, and that you just assumed from the lack of responses that the existence of bad names for non-Jews was true. I'll accept that, despite the oddness of the claim, and apologize to you for lumping you in with that dirtbag and remove your name from the first post in this thread.
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posted
When talking to people you need to talk to their personality as much as the content of their posts.
If this had been Clive, I would have read the post similarly. But since we have no idea who Wingracer is, I thought it best to get to know him before jumping on him.
So while I understand your read of Win's post, I hope that he revealed himself to you not to be who you thought he was.
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posted
Armoth, read Shmuel's post. And for the record, if I have to rank the bad behavior on this subject, excluding Parkour, who was just frothing at the mouth, I'd say ibn Kalba was the worst, and you were the second worst, beating Wingracer out. I guarantee you that I'm as uncomfortable and horrified by your posts as you are by mine.
And frankly, "Should anyone else like to respectfully pick up Sa'eed's questions, I'd be glad to answer them" makes me physically ill. There is no respectful way to ask ibn Kalba's questions. You might as well be willing to answer the question "Why do you kill Christian kids to make your matzas?"
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posted
This count as "showing remarkable restraint"? Compared to what? People who shoot someone who cut them off in traffic?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Armoth, read Shmuel's post. And for the record, if I have to rank the bad behavior on this subject, excluding Parkour, who was just frothing at the mouth, I'd say ibn Kalba was the worst, and you were the second worst, beating Wingracer out. I guarantee you that I'm as uncomfortable and horrified by your posts as you are by mine.
And frankly, "Should anyone else like to respectfully pick up Sa'eed's questions, I'd be glad to answer them" makes me physically ill. There is no respectful way to ask ibn Kalba's questions. You might as well be willing to answer the question "Why do you kill Christian kids to make your matzas?"
::shrug:: I still love you Lisa.
I guess we just have different strategies. Maybe even different goals.
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quote:Wingracer, I'll make you a deal. Tell me you completely misspoke. That you hadn't noticed the responses to ibn Kalba, and that you just assumed from the lack of responses that the existence of bad names for non-Jews was true.
I've only read this thread, but from what you posted as being offensive from Wingracer, I'm pretty lost. He asked the question without judgment looking for an explanation, not a fight. He didn't even put forth an argument.
I think it's natural to get defensive about a topic close to your heart, especially when the Jewish people have such a strong history of persecution. But I think if you stepped back, you'd see that you are being defensive and no offense was meant.
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posted
He repeated ibn Kalba's question. That's all. He called it a reasonable question. How does that qualify as being "without judgement". It looks an awful lot like he was judging that ibn Kalba's claims were correct, and that all of the responses pointing out that they weren't were just a bunch of nothing.
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quote:Wingracer, I'll make you a deal. Tell me you completely misspoke. That you hadn't noticed the responses to ibn Kalba, and that you just assumed from the lack of responses that the existence of bad names for non-Jews was true.
I've only read this thread, but from what you posted as being offensive from Wingracer, I'm pretty lost. He asked the question without judgment looking for an explanation, not a fight. He didn't even put forth an argument.
I think it's natural to get defensive about a topic close to your heart, especially when the Jewish people have such a strong history of persecution. But I think if you stepped back, you'd see that you are being defensive and no offense was meant.
You really need to read the other thread to understand.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: He used "names". Without even suggesting what those "names" might be. You accepted that there are such names and asked us to explain why we thought they were okay. Had you asked, "What are these names that you're talking about", that would have been one thing. But you didn't.
That was absolutely the intent of what I was asking and I am very sorry that I was unable at the time to word it as well as you did. I actually wasn't asking why you thought they were OK as I have no idea what they were. If you had told me that you have a word "heykiblimishdaput" and it meant "hate everyone" well then yes, I would definitely have questioned that but obviously no such thing exists.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Wingracer, I'll make you a deal. Tell me you completely misspoke. That you hadn't noticed the responses to ibn Kalba, and that you just assumed from the lack of responses that the existence of bad names for non-Jews was true. I'll accept that, despite the oddness of the claim, and apologize to you for lumping you in with that dirtbag and remove your name from the first post in this thread.
I did misspeak but I did notice the responses to the word "goy." I was not assuming that there were more "bad" names, I was assuming there were more words like "goy" that were used to describe some other people and I wanted to know what were the definitions and uses of these words and how were they taken by non-Jews.
I was merely curious to know if you had words like "colored" which while certainly not bad by any strict definition, has come to be seen as disparaging when used by whites to refer to African Americans. I was also curious if the non-Jew world agreed that "goy" was not disparaging. I completely understood the definition that was given and how Jews viewed it but the outside world doesn't always view things the same way, just like "colored." I wanted to know if this was a word like that or not. I was not "assuming" that it was, I was asking if it was. Fortunately, Armoth explained it quite well I think.
That's about as eloquent as I get. If that's not a good enough explanation, please forgive me.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Parkour: Don't leave, wingracer. Stick around and see if lisa's filth gets reigned in.
posted
I'm sorry to do this, but I just can't see this thread going in any positive direction.
I'm sure Lisa created it with the intention of keeping the Q/A thread free of this sort of debate, and that was very considerate.
This thread has to be dealt with though as a separate issue. I don't want to encourage threads like this being created in the future. So for now, I'm locking this thread and letting it die. If Lisa or any other poster has objections you can PM me through the forums and I will seriously consider your arguments.
As for the Q/A thread, it's getting near intolerable, and it would really bug me if that thread had to meet the same fate.
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