posted
If gays want to openly serve in the military, they must deal with the consequences: segregation from straights in private matters. Just as we find it prudent to give men and women separate restrooms and dormitories, so too must we segregate homosexuals from straights, otherwise straight people will be made uncomfortable by the gays looking at them in the showers/dorms with longing eyes.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
How does segregating them that way help? I doubt a gay man wants to be stared at lustfully by other gay men. I should think women would feel the same way.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: How does segregating them that way help? I doubt a gay man wants to be stared at lustfully by other gay men. I should think women would feel the same way.
It would help the straight people though.
Anyway, you can then start having separate quarters for the different type of gays as well, you know, tops/buttoms etc.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: How does segregating them that way help? I doubt a gay man wants to be stared at lustfully by other gay men. I should think women would feel the same way.
It would help the straight people though.
How so? I was under the impression that service men already have individual stalls when they shower, change clothes, etc.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I dunno. Hear the man out. It's not like merely partitioned washroom stalls helped a certain Republican senator Maybe we should start by segregating the Senate.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: How does segregating them that way help? I doubt a gay man wants to be stared at lustfully by other gay men. I should think women would feel the same way.
It would help the straight people though.
How so? I was under the impression that service men already have individual stalls when they shower, change clothes, etc.
We segregate men and women in public bathrooms despite there being private stalls.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: Anyway, you can then start having separate quarters for the different type of gays as well, you know, tops/buttoms etc.
People, please, don't feed the ridiculous troll.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I guess if we have to go through Clive's thread cycle again predictably, dancing bears and cookies are better.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
disregarding the poster, i think this is an important issue to address as it has implications outside of the military. it goes beyond the debate of gays and alleged gay rights and involves privacy in general. western society permits the segregation of restrooms, locker rooms, etc based on both gender and sexuality. if its illegal for a male, straight or otherwise, to enter even a womens restroom -let alone a shower area of a womens locker room- why is it not illegal for a lesbian to do so? or perhaps why are current laws, if such exist, not enforced? many locker room and changing facilities, both private and public, dont have individual stalls etc. the best examples i can think of are high school and college locker rooms. i dont want to workout on campus then got ogled by a gay guy while im showering or be victim to anothers public exhibition. in a twisted crusade to remain politically correct and protect the rights of everything under the sun, our society is denying basic rights of privacy to a very large segment of the population. and its a poor legal precedent to permit "sexual predators masquerading as protected [homo]sexuals". this issue is ripe with lawsuits, litigation and legislation and should be addressed.
Posts: 570 | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: so too must we segregate homosexuals from straights, otherwise straight people will be made uncomfortable by the gays looking at them in the showers/dorms with longing eyes.
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: i dont want to workout on campus then got ogled by a gay guy while im showering or be victim to anothers public exhibition.
What is this, Homophobia on Parade?
What are the gays supposed to do? Wear something that identifies them as gay?
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I forget: is the consensus that capax is another puppet, or not?
i cant remember the last time you said something constructive on this forum. im as much a puppet as you are a muppet.. are you going to address the topic or not?
Posts: 570 | Registered: Sep 2009
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I find reading your post to be more effort than I care to put forward. Please use proper capitalization. It makes it far easier to read.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: so too must we segregate homosexuals from straights, otherwise straight people will be made uncomfortable by the gays looking at them in the showers/dorms with longing eyes.
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: i dont want to workout on campus then got ogled by a gay guy while im showering or be victim to anothers public exhibition.
What is this, Homophobia on Parade?
What are the gays supposed to do? Wear something that identifies them as gay?
how does speaking out on privacy constitute homophobia? if your wife, daughter, sister or mother was made to feel uncomfortable or disgusted by a guy creeping around the shower area of a local gym what would you call that?
what are the gays supposed to do? that is what is being alluded to in the op. no one is asking for there to be some sort of patch with a phallic symbol for the gays so they can be identified before entering a restroom. but by law there should be separate facilities provided for gays and lesbians and those that are openly gay should be required to use the provided facilities. there will be dishonest people and sexual predators who disregard the laws but the current double standard shouldnt be sanctioned by the government.
Posts: 570 | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: but by law there should be separate facilities provided for gays and lesbians and those that are openly gay should be required to use the provided facilities.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I forget: is the consensus that capax is another puppet, or not?
That's a bit rude to say off the bat Tom, though there have been alts creeping about, that's not a good enough reason to just start throwing that accusation around.
Posts: 1194 | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: ...western society permits the segregation of restrooms, locker rooms, etc based on both gender and sexuality...
quote: ...but by law there should be separate facilities provided for gays and lesbian...
Quite a big jump from "permits" to "by law there should be"
quote: ...the current double standard shouldnt be sanctioned by the government.
If you lost the hyperbole, you might get more discussion.
Of course, then you wouldn't have an argument. Oh well.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Capax, have you ever thought about the fact that a gay man might ALSO prefer to not get ogled by another gay man in the shower? Your separate facility idea doesn't actually solve any of your problems, it just puts them out of your sight.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
When has western society segregated restrooms, locker rooms, or similar by sexuality? As far as I know, they're segregated by gender, full stop. Or do you have any examples of segregation by sexuality?
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Wonder what the poor bisexuals will have to do. Maybe they can be given a pit off to the side, somewhere.
Apparently if gays are allowed to openly serve, instead of secretly serving as they've been all along, they'll suddenly turn into leering, lecherous fiends with no self-control or sense of decorum.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
For the record: if a homosexual wants to leer at me in the shower, have at it. You poor blind bastard.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: how does speaking out on privacy constitute homophobia?
Solely speaking out on privacy doesn't constitute homophobia, here we already have two distinctly homophobic arguments. 'They'll make me uncomfortable with their constant staring and the longing eyes' .. 'I don't want to be ogled by the gay men while I'm showering, I don't want to be the victim of their public exhibition' ..
But I wouldn't want to get you all wrong. As I recall, nobody's homophobic just because they're creeped out by gay people and want to restrict their legal rights because of it, framing the argument for legal protections against gays in terms of supposed licentiousness and creephattery. Nobody.Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Also, I personally find it a little silly that public restrooms (with stalls) are segregated. What is the purpose?
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I spent well over a decade in the Navy. Every command had it's gays. They didn't have to tell and no one had to ask....everyone knew. All you really need is a sexual harassment policy. In practice, the gay sailors waited for the rest to shower, before they entered. The known gay sailor wanted even less, to shower with the straights in the berthing. It's understandable that heterosexuals don't want homosexuals sharing a shower room. The "known" homosexuals understood this. Even with "don't ask, don't tell"......the lesbian with a mullet is an obvious cue. The effeminate sounding man is just as obvious. The 50 straight sailors in my birthing had less to fear than the 1 gay sailor. He self segregated himself, out of consideration for the rest.
If gays are accepted openly, they need to eliminate the concept of male and female bathrooms or create a third and fourth category for the gays and lesbians. The only other option: make it sexually neutral....women and gays are still soldiers.....let all soldiers shower together.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
There have been significant problems with men harassing women, particularly in the military. I think there is still an argument for segregating by sexes that doesn't have anything to do with privacy and everything to do with prudence and the safety of women.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
There are different military cultures. I spent my first 10 years in the regular navy. Senior enlisted had their own quarters and chow halls. Fraternization was the big issue. I entered joint service and was exposed to Army. In the Army, under certain situations, women and men, officer and enlisted, senior and junior, share living spaces together. An E1 woman shares a tent with an O4 male.
In the navy, entering a female area, a male has to announce,...."male on deck". Maybe gays should be required to do the same, "gay on deck". Not really against the don't ask, don't tell opponents.....announce it proudly. Gay on deck.... Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
As a female who has changed in the same room with lesbians, the general impression I have had from other females about lesbians is eh, whatever. But women generally don't fear rape or attack from other lesbians, whereas from straight men, there is good reason to fear. Most women know at least one rape victim.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Most women know at least one rape victim.
Most military women? Most women in certain careers? Areas? Income levels? I find it hard to believe that "most women" in general could personally at least one rape victim.
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: As a female who has changed in the same room with lesbians, the general impression I have had from other females about lesbians is eh, whatever. But women generally don't fear rape or attack from other lesbians, whereas from straight men, there is good reason to fear. Most women know at least one rape victim.
I was under the impression that most male rapists are straight. Not gay.
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I hate to validate this thread, but I don't think it's at all fair to men to say that there is "good reason to fear" rape from men in a changing room.
First of all, rapists aren't going to limit themselves to waiting around a unisex bathroom, they don't give a crap - they're violent criminals.
Second, regular guys seeing women in their underpants doesn't turn them into rapists.
I've seen women come in to the men's restroom at a bar to pee. I've been on a bus with dozens of co-ed band students all changing clothes. I've been to clothing-optional beaches. At none of these places was anyone ever raped in my presence.
I realize that rape is a horrible crime, but there is also a culture of fear and BS about it, that isn't helpful to anyone.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I forget: is the consensus that capax is another puppet, or not?
i cant remember the last time you said something constructive on this forum. im as much a puppet as you are a muppet.. are you going to address the topic or not?
You've NEVER said anything constructive, so what's your point?
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Most women know at least one rape victim.
Most military women? Most women in certain careers? Areas? Income levels? I find it hard to believe that "most women" in general could personally at least one rape victim.
If you changed "rape" to "sexual assault/sexual molestation," I'd consider that a true statement. Of course, I question whether most women KNOW that they know a victim of sexual assault. More women are speaking openly to friends about their experiences as its becoming less stigmatized, but its still an issue many women won't share with even their closest friends and family.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
According to a study from the U.S. Dept. of Justice, 20 million out of 112 million of women in the U.S. have been raped, with 18 million being forcible rapes. This is not counting the ones that go unreported, of course. Studies referenced in that report put the numbers more succinctly: 1 in 7 women have been raped in their lifetime.
It is a dangerous thing to be a woman, and a far more dangerous thing to be a female soldier. And people are wasting time worrying about feeling icky because someone looked at them wrong in the shower? Go kick some sense into the violent oversexed straight guys first before you worry what the gay ones will do.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
No, Chris, because if you find a woman outside the schoolhouse, library, or home, she's probably looking to trap a man into marriage or child support, remember? This being Clive Candy and all.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Having gays and lesbians is akin to having straight men and women share restrooms.
I personally don't see what the big deal is. Its a restroom/shower. I seriously doubt a gay guy goes into a restroom hoping to see a straight mans dangly parts.
I also think that a gay guy has more to worry about when taking a shower than the straight guy does. If you are a straight man, imagine taking a shower with a bunch of naked and athletically fit military women. Without being graphic, how much control would you have to exert not to get overly...."excited" from being in there?
Oh, and you have my vote for the no clothing thing. Lets write up a bill and send it to Congress... I'm sick of wearing clothes here in Vegas. It was 109 last week.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
What if being naked in public -- and here I'm thinking of me -- represents a clear and present danger as well as a public health emergency? What takes precedence?
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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