quote: Report from the 2010 Chinese Defense Electronics Exhibition (CIDEX): Growing Industry – Advancing Technology by Rafael Smith Published on October 3rd, 2010 ARMS SHOW REPORTS
EXCERPT
2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art
Chinese defence products were once thought of as being moderately capable copies of previous-generation hardware that contained attributes of Russian, European and Israeli designs. Some of those bloodlines can still be seen in their designs, but the products now being seen at an expo like CIDEX show that Chinese firms have capabilities that approach first world industrial, state-of-the-art levels of sophistication.
In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.
This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation”) has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.
Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters. Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing. The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.
Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems. Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.
One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious. “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”
posted
Why should he respond when you continue to act like a 3-year old and intentionally mistype his name. You're a baby. You're an even bigger baby than you were 5 years ago, because now you have fewer and fewer excuses for being one.
Also if you actually think this is conclusive material evidence of your point.... wow. You're naive.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
the article pretty much flat out establishes chinese design is still imitative and is 'approaching' world-class design. I guess this is supposed to in your mind constitute an overwhelming defense of whatever your position is, which is probably more china fanboyism that's long ago lost any real shred of objectivity.
Even better, pretty much all it is saying is the chinese defense industry now has better electronic component manufacture capacity than the mouldering russian counterparts. No, really?
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: 98% of Blayne threads are "bad idea."
98% is a little much.
I overwhelmingly prefer Blayne's immaturity to willful narrow-mindedness. Blayne has gotten a little better over the last year or two. Citations are offered, and occasionally his logic is followable. Orincoro on the other hand, has just become more practiced in the pettiness with which he began.
Posts: 1156 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
China cannot innovate its way out of a wet paper sack, due to cultural and governmental baggage. If China were really innovative, South Korea and Taiwan would not outdo it in terms of innovations. China is many times their size. China is like Japan in that regard. They're both really good at taking (or, in China's case, flat-out stealing) someone else's idea and making billions with it. Neither one can actually create something new. I learned that in 9th-grade Gov't/Civics.
Seriously, the day there's a Chinese-made OS...yeah, like that'll ever happen. I don't even have to threaten to eat my hat.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by steven: China cannot innovate its way out of a wet paper sack, due to cultural and governmental baggage. If China were really innovative, South Korea and Taiwan would not outdo it in terms of innovations. China is many times their size. China is like Japan in that regard. They're both really good at taking (or, in China's case, flat-out stealing) someone else's idea and making billions with it. Neither one can actually create something new. I learned that in 9th-grade Gov't/Civics.
Seriously, the day there's a Chinese-made OS...yeah, like that'll ever happen. I don't even have to threaten to eat my hat.
Taiwan and Korea are smaller and had a much easier initial head start in getting returning engineer and science graduates from foreign countries to return, much easier times developing infrastructure, are within the US security umbrella and can afford to put more investment into modernizations, of course this calls into question whether or not your 9th grade civics class (probably American to boot) is taught by a white supremacist.
The whole "China/Japan/Korea/Etc East Asian Nations" are "unable to innovate" and "only good at copyring and reverse engineering" is a tired old white supremacist garbage that claims only anglo saxon western civilization is capable of innovation long since discredited with any significant google searching ofr any of their over 100,000 patents they file each year.
And this that was literally word for word the arguments I've seen white supremacists give.
I mean really cultural baggage? Please explain one bit of Chinese culture you know about that discourages innovation that hasn't been stamped out of public consciousness from the backlash against the Cultural Revolution.
Taiwan and Japan had significant head starts and the relative advantages of open market export driven economies for a few decades ahead of the mainland but both are slowing down and are devoting ever increasing amounts of gov't investment into R&D to make up for it but the writing is on the wall.
China being many times bigger is cherry picking and ignores that they are continueing to modernize and develop if there is some objective index standard that you can source me go right ahead that shows innovativeness but I'm certain you won't also neglect to mention the almost certain statistic that their index of innovativeness is almost certainly rising year by year.
IP: Logged |
Much of the fear around China is in terms of size.
They're bigger than us (the USA).
But what does it matter?
They have three times our population or so; they could have twice our national gross product and still live in with much inferior quality of life, no?
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
GDP per capita and PPP are a little bit different, also one has to ask what is culturally considered an inferior quality of life, even poor people in China have cellphones, can access Computer internet cafes and have mandatory public education and a hyper competitive university system and a culture geared towards families being very supportive of each other and an inclination towards frugal spending and savings.
Sure things will be cramped, and they plan on having some 350 million in cities that don't even exist yet but that isnt an issue really.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: 98% of Blayne's threads end with the same people getting a rise out of him and end up on the chopping block.
Lyrhawn's a big boy, I'm sure he can handle any threads being directed at him.
I agree. The real question is, can he handle being called "Lytharn" again?
Come on, Blayne. I have no problem with you making threads about whatever you like, but dude. You've been talking to the guy for years. You really can't manage his name?
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
It's a modified version of already existing software.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I'ld be willing to bet money that even that would have been too much for Stevens suspension of disbelief.
And I honestly thought that is how it was speelt, I'm not doing it on purpose, I make typos sometimes, I'm pretty sure bad spelling has been an consistent issue for years and not something to be personally insulted over.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: 98% of Blayne's threads end with the same people getting a rise out of him and end up on the chopping block.
That's because he's engendered an environment where 'getting a rise out of him' has for years been less about purposeful intent on the part of the provokers than it is that on some issues it is impossible to not have him be provoked and use that as an excuse anyway.
Like there become situations and entire subjects (hi, China!) where you are forced to walk on eggshells around him if you don't want it to be 'getting a rise out of him!'
also this tends to inspire frustration when he doesn't learn to play nice or act better after years so, ehh ..
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
You don't have that excuse, not this time, these were clearly unprovoked personal attacks by you and orincoro, take the hint from the moderator that maybe your in the wrong this time, though expecting you to take responsibility for your mistake and apologize is probably beyond you since if you go to this distance to rationalize not having to.
Just because there are situations where I may or may not explode what may or may not be trivial overreactions doesn't mean you have a free pass to say whatever disparaging non sequitor garbage you you feel like.
Three people in this thread have spoken up and explained in one way or another in words that your behavior here is unwarranted, are all of them wrong?
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'ld be willing to bet money that even that would have been too much for Stevens suspension of disbelief.
And I honestly thought that is how it was speelt, I'm not doing it on purpose, I make typos sometimes, I'm pretty sure bad spelling has been an consistent issue for years and not something to be personally insulted over.
Possibly, Blayne. Note I am NOT saying all they can do is imitate. Half of innovation is adapting existing tech to new applications.
But a lot of people, at times even myself, tend to view your posts on specific topics with a rather large gain of doubt. At time perhaps an entire grain silo's worth, even, when it comes to China and communism. I know you really, really like China, but you have made a lot of claims over the years that were not just opinion but pure speculation for people to take what you say at face value.
I have noticed a change in your posting style, and I hope it continues. You are posting links, and at least trying to state what is opinion some of the time, which makes your posts a lot more readable.
A lot of people have pet topics that I avoid discussing with them. One of your biggest is China.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blayne, you are hardly a saint. Quite frankly you have been lucky not to be banned several times over the past few years.
If there is consistently a problem, when you post, involving multiple people over multiple topics, over multiple years, to the point that well regarded people have LEFT THIS SITE because of you and the way you handle issues like this, perhaps there is a common thread.
You, and how you "discuss" things. YOU are the only common denominator though all of those conversations, topics, threads, and interactions.
I think hearing YOU complain about someone ELSE refusing to accept responsibility for their tone is one of the largest oxymoron's I have seen in years.
Keep in mind that Samp and I have violently disagreed on topics multiple times, fairly recently even. It's hardly a given that we would agree on any given topic, so it's not likely that I am saying any of this just to back him up.
Unlike him, I have seen a slight change in your posting style recently, and I'd like to see that change continue. I think that you will find you can get your points though better, communicate better, and engage in more meaningful conversations this way.
Or not. It's your choice. But to say it's all about other people picking on you is false, and hardly constructive.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Three people in this thread have spoken up and explained in one way or another in words that your behavior here is unwarranted, are all of them wrong?
Also, I haven't been told that my behavior here is unwarranted. That's pretty fictionalized there, dude!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Blayne, you are hardly a saint. Quite frankly you have been lucky not to be banned several times over the past few years.
If there is consistently a problem, when you post, involving multiple people over multiple topics, over multiple years, to the point that well regarded people have LEFT THIS SITE because of you and the way you handle issues like this, perhaps there is a common thread.
If he could name four, Blayne, wouldn't that be pretty terrible? Or is that fifth person the clincher that would suddenly show you the error of your ways?
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I'ld be willing to bet money that even that would have been too much for Stevens suspension of disbelief.
And I honestly thought that is how it was speelt, I'm not doing it on purpose, I make typos sometimes, I'm pretty sure bad spelling has been an consistent issue for years and not something to be personally insulted over.
I'm not personally insulted. I shift between amused and mildly annoyed that you can't summon up enough consideration and respect for something as simple as spelling my name correctly, especially when I've mentioned before that you're horribly mangling it, and you consistently spell it wrong, but I digress.
As for the issue of the thread, sorry, you're still not there yet. I think the Chinese have come ahead by leaps and bounds in recent years, and I'd say they're probably technologically on par with Russia, if not maybe ahead, because for all the decent designs Russia comes up with, they can't actually afford to make any of them, where China can. But where I see the problem is where others have noted; innovation.
China has gotten to where it is largely by either buying or stealing its way there. Not all technological transfers were outright thefts, but a lot of them were, and a lot of important ones for that matter. Once China achieves some sort of technological first world parity with regards to military hardware, then what? Let's say they are pretty much there right now. I don't think they are, but let's just say they are. Where do we go from here? Unless they get even better at espionage, both national and corporate, they'll just fall behind again because their military establishment doesn't have the brainpower in R&D that US and many European nations do (or even the Russians, well until recently). That might change in the next decade or two as China brings more of their own brainpower home, but even though China graduates more engineers than the United States does now, there is a huge quality gap in that education. With exceptions for top universities, Chinese engineers and American engineers aren't nearly on the same level. Their education system needs an overhaul, though in a couple ways, I like some of what they're doing better than we do. Still I find it far too rigid to promote genuine invention.
Real invention, or even genuine innovation that turns something old into something more advanced, is a little different from stealing and adapting (though that can be impressive in its own right).
So to sum up: Very impressed by China's gains and improvements. Still not there yet. Long way to go. And don't take that as an insult. They've modernized their army (technologically that is, their training still leaves a lot to be desired compared to the US military) at an impressive rate, but there's still more to do.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Arbitrary number, I even find the notion of two dubious or if they were actually "well renown" or maybe the case of simply being the straw that broke the camels back in the greater context of things of the direction Hatrack has gone in which case someone or something eventually would have done it so not my problem.
IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Blayne, you are hardly a saint. Quite frankly you have been lucky not to be banned several times over the past few years.
If there is consistently a problem, when you post, involving multiple people over multiple topics, over multiple years, to the point that well regarded people have LEFT THIS SITE because of you and the way you handle issues like this, perhaps there is a common thread.
Bullshit, name 5.
I could, but you would just call bull again. I know, for a fact, that you are a large reason 2 of my CLOSE friends don't post here. Your "signal to noise ratio" was too high.
Ring any bells?
My friend Kev stopped posting here because, in his own words, "The place seems filled with 12 year old fanboys", specifically mentioning you and your China rants. That was about 2 years ago.
I am a lot of things, but a liar I am not. I honestly don't care if you believe me or not. Most of the people here I care about know SPECIFICALLY who I reference. It's not like it hasn't come up in conversation before.
I stopped posting as much here at least in part because Hatrack seemed filled with you and people like you. I took about 8 months off, actually, posting very infrequently, until I learned just to ignore your threads.
I am glad that for the most part you have improved your posting style. I am sure you have input I would like to hear on some topics, and you are a lot better at communicating these days.
But you still have these huge blind sports at times. We all have them, I guess, but you refuse to even admit they might exist, Blayne. It is always someone else's fault, or someone picking on you, or someone just backing their friends. Or someone else's blind patriotism and prejudices speaking out.
It's never that anyone else has a point, or that anyone else has another viewpoint. It's that you are right, they are wrong, and they are a nannyheaded poopybutt for daring to disagree with your opinion........which is to you pure fact.
I do think at times people don't take you seriously, and discount your opinion. However, most of that is because of your posting history, and your past behavior, not because they started out hating you. It is something you have to overcome if you want meaningful conversations, to be sure, but you really have no one else to blame.
quote: I'm not personally insulted. I shift between amused and mildly annoyed that you can't summon up enough consideration and respect for something as simple as spelling my name correctly, especially when I've mentioned before that you're horribly mangling it, and you consistently spell it wrong, but I digress.
I edited and fixed your name but :rollseyes: at the second line, I have only spelt your name wrong once before that I can remember, I consistently spell names wrong because I remember words by sounding them out phonemically and some names just aren't conducive to that method.
quote: I could, but you would just call bull again. I know, for a fact, that you are a large reason 2 of my CLOSE friends don't post here. Your "signal to noise ratio" was too high.
Ring any bells?
My friend Kev stopped posting here because, in his own words, "The place seems filled with 12 year old fanboys", specifically mentioning you and your China rants. That was about 2 years ago.
I don't believe this to be a good enough reason or a good enough argument to warrant your tone/implication that I am at fault or very nearly at fault.
quote: I am a lot of things, but a liar I am not. I honestly don't care if you believe me or not. Most of the people here I care about know SPECIFICALLY who I reference. It's not like it hasn't come up in conversation before.
Alot of things turn up in conversation, especially on other forums by people who say of course encredibly nasty things about me and consistently are nasty whenevery they interact with me despite whatever improvements I had made in those times, resulting in the self fulfilling circle of my posting quality dropping from depression and then rising again to endear myself to those whose opinions I care about only to lower again when I check said forums and voila, still douchbags.
quote: I stopped posting as much here at least in part because Hatrack seemed filled with you and people like you. I took about 8 months off, actually, posting very infrequently, until I learned just to ignore your threads.
Derp. Whatever magical method to so perfectly troll you must inform me so I can sell it to others.
quote: I am glad that for the most part you have improved your posting style. I am sure you have input I would like to hear on some topics, and you are a lot better at communicating these days.
But you still have these huge blind spots at times. We all have them, I guess, but you refuse to even admit they might exist, Blayne. It is always someone else's fault, or someone picking on you, or someone just backing their friends. Or someone else's blind patriotism and prejudices speaking out.
I do not believe I have never admitted to any mistakes or blindspots.
[/quote] It's never that anyone else has a point, or that anyone else has another viewpoint. It's that you are right, they are wrong, and they are a nannyheaded poopybutt for daring to disagree with your opinion........which is to you pure fact. [/quote]
I disagree that this has been either the tone or direction of my last 50 threads or last 500 posts on the relevant subjects, but instead orincoro or samp coming in saying some douchy thing and then walking away laughing.
quote: I do think at times people don't take you seriously, and discount your opinion. However, most of that is because of your posting history, and your past behavior, not because they started out hating you. It is something you have to overcome if you want meaningful conversations, to be sure, but you really have no one else to blame.
I recall that my very first post in Sakeriver was about isaac asimov and nuclear fusion, only for Primal Curve (spit) to basically say "don't let the door hit you on your way out".
So yes, I am nearly certain that there are some who do dislike me right from the get go.
quote: As I said......the only common thread is YOU.
posted
Big freaking surprise. It's fairly telling that no one else doubts it though.
Blayne, a good number of people because regulars over at sake just to get away from you, so I don't doubt it. I imagine it was fairly disheartening to see you over there if one of the reasons you stopped or decreased posting here was to avoid someone, and it seemed that person followed you to your new home. You actually just proved my point.....people were not judging you as a blank slate, but because they had already interacted with you here, where your posts at the time were disorganized, fanboyish, and you played the martyr card constantly.
You had to overcame that, at least as as much as you have, in order to make any headway. Which is what I actually said in the first place.
I am not partial to Sakeriver myself, but a lot of the people I referred to are, and love it there. To each their own. I haven't posted over there....well, since I said I wouldn't.
Go figure. I am sure I am not missed, at least by most.
As far as trolling me.....it wasn't that. Your attempts at logic gave me a headache, your random grammar and syntax made you hardly readable, and most of the people I respected preferred to leave rather than try to discuss things with a 12 year old fanboy. It simply stopped being worth my time for a while.
It wasn't you, per se. You were just the poster child for things in general. I ran out of give a damn for a while, in part because of RL, not Hatrack.
I'm fairly immune these days, and my noise filter is a lot better. And to be honest, you have gotten a lot better about keeping things readable, and trying to make your points more coherently. And some of the time I find myself agreeing with a few points, or at least understanding your points better.
You DO get called on BS a lot.....but part of that is because there has been a history here with BS similar to it. You don't get a clean slate every thread, Blayne. People tend to judge people by character and content, and if one is lacking (in their opinion) they don't bother looking as closely at the other a lot of the time.
posted
*sigh* Blayne, you can dispute all you like that folks are fair in saying things such as 'your signal to noise ratio is really bad'. But you cannot suggest, and expect to be taken seriously, that it's not what they actually think.
If Lyrhawn (and yes, it is disrespectful to consistently misspell and mangle his name when it's been pointed out to you. Why? Because you correctly spell words you care about, and this has been observed. And then there's your contradictory stances of demanding to be taken seriously while simultaneously posting/spelling so poorly) states that his friend doesn't post here because you made the environment undesirable for him, well, the only real reason for you to dispute that as an accurate statement of his belief is your own ego.
quote:Alot of things turn up in conversation, especially on other forums by people who say of course encredibly nasty things about me and consistently are nasty whenevery they interact with me despite whatever improvements I had made in those times, resulting in the self fulfilling circle of my posting quality dropping from depression and then rising again to endear myself to those whose opinions I care about only to lower again when I check said forums and voila, still douchbags.
OK, the problems here aren't that other people are saying incredibly nasty things about you. Well, those things are problems, but they're not serious problems. A serious problem would be you permitting what some random schlub from the Internet says about you impact your actual mood and getting you depressed, Blayne. And, yes, over this long a time that kind of thing is within your power to change, so it is your problem in the sense that it's in your power to change. So it doesn't matter if they're DBs. If you would just continue growing up and realize that - and that's said out of hopeful exasperation, not DB-ness - you would quite quickly become a great deal happier, I suspect.
quote:Derp. Whatever magical method to so perfectly troll you must inform me so I can sell it to others.
You'd probably also lose a lot of the urge to indulge in this sort of thing, because it's precisely the kind of thing that you just posted about above as db-behavior.
quote:I do not believe I have never admitted to any mistakes or blindspots.
No, but you're Hatrack-famous (and despite the shiny word 'famous', that's a bad thing) for there always being qualifiers. Doesn't matter what Orincoro or Samprimary or Primal Curve are saying about you, Blayne.
quote:So yes, I am nearly certain that there are some who do dislike me right from the get go.
No. This is what you tell yourself as a salve to your ego, but if you examine that statement rationally, you'll know it's not true. 'From the get-go' was, for you, your name in front of a post followed by content.
But, hey, keep on truckin', man. What has listening to criticism ever done for anybody?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blayne is the kind of poster who can't benefit from group nannying. I see you have been trying to make him a tolerable poster for years, but obviously have only found out how remarkably immune to advice he is.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:From Blayne: I edited and fixed your name but :rollseyes: at the second line, I have only spelt your name wrong once before that I can remember, I consistently spell names wrong because I remember words by sounding them out phonemically and some names just aren't conducive to that method.
I don't want to get into a tit for tat here, at least, not an extensive one, but that's not really working for me as an excuse.
First of all, a simple search of Hatrack threads reveal at least two times in the last two years that you've used the "Lytharn" misappellation, and in one of them I specifically told you that my name was Lyrhawn, not Lytharn. This does not include the many other mangled forms of my name that you have created.
And then there's the fact that, even never having heard me say it, Lyr-hawn and Ly-tharn, other than starting with the letter "L" and ending with the letter "N," don't really share a basic phonetic similarity. But for the sake of your mnemonic techniques; it's pronounced Leer-hawn (Leer like the jet, and Hawn as in Goldie)
You make a lot of simple spelling mistakes a lot of the time, but usually you get people's names right. Stop being lazy, and stop being rude. If you expect me to answer to a thread aimed directly at me like this again, you'd do well to show me at least a basic level of courtesy by spelling my name correctly.
Otherwise I'm going to assume you really are talking to Lytharn, and I won't respond at all.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Heh, I forgot about that. Now I really want to name a character in a future short story Samprany of Orincolo.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Blayne, someone SPECIFICALLY mentioned YOU and YOUR posts as to why they weren't interested in posting here any more, and you say that's not enough proof YOU were to blame?
LOL
Whatever. Back to ignoring you. It's fairly easy after all these years of doing so. It's not like I've missed anything of substance so far.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
Ah, another of Blayne's threads have turned into a collective b*tching session about him...
Well, don't let me get in the way of what seems like a really worthwhile and effective way to spend a morning.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I suppose, for me, well sometimes Blayne just gets so obnoxious that I Samprimary-out on him, so to speak. Or at least he might characterize it thus in one of his threads. As for 'helpful advice', though...I guess it seems to me that Blayne actually listens to some small fraction of criticism, so occasionally I throw it out there in the hopes that the numbers will come up good eventually. Because I do remember a time when, every single time, on all occasions and on all subjects - literally - he couldn't be told anything unless proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be factually incorrect. And even then, graceful acknowledgment was, shall we say, unlikely. Some progress has been made, at least.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by steven: China cannot innovate its way out of a wet paper sack, due to cultural and governmental baggage. If China were really innovative, South Korea and Taiwan would not outdo it in terms of innovations. China is many times their size. China is like Japan in that regard. They're both really good at taking (or, in China's case, flat-out stealing) someone else's idea and making billions with it. Neither one can actually create something new. I learned that in 9th-grade Gov't/Civics.
Seriously, the day there's a Chinese-made OS...yeah, like that'll ever happen. I don't even have to threaten to eat my hat.
Taiwan and Korea are smaller and had a much easier initial head start in getting returning engineer and science graduates from foreign countries to return, much easier times developing infrastructure, are within the US security umbrella and can afford to put more investment into modernizations, of course this calls into question whether or not your 9th grade civics class (probably American to boot) is taught by a white supremacist.
The whole "China/Japan/Korea/Etc East Asian Nations" are "unable to innovate" and "only good at copyring and reverse engineering" is a tired old white supremacist garbage that claims only anglo saxon western civilization is capable of innovation long since discredited with any significant google searching ofr any of their over 100,000 patents they file each year.
And this that was literally word for word the arguments I've seen white supremacists give.
First, that OS is just building on someone else's work. That doesn't count, just like Ubuntu or Mint don't count as "new" OS.
Here's a quote from the Wiki--" Kylin is an operating system...based on Mach and FreeBSD. It aims to add an extra level of security to that operating system. In this sense, it is a similar effort to Security-Enhanced Linux that is primarily developed by the U.S. National Security Agency..."
Please note the italics in that quote.
Second, you're making excuses and not even giving reasons. WHY does China have trouble bringing back its foreign-educated engineers? WHY would being smaller be helpful for innovation? The US is quite large, yet we lead the world (or come near the top of the pack) in scientific innovations. There are reasons, Blayne. I suggest you investigate them.
Your point about being within the US security umbrella is prima facie wrong. Did you even bother to note that I accused Japan of being unable to innovate? The Japanese are practically run by the yakuza, and are (and have been for a long time) incredibly xenophobic, which doesn't exactly encourage innovation.
Comparing my arguments with white supremacist doctrine is also prima facie wrong. That's like saying that someone who says that some Muslims are too fanatical hates all Muslims. Drawing distinctions within a group is the opposite of the broad generalizations that characterize bigotry.
I know you don't remember this, but I have also accused Europe (in an older thread) of being in the "too much baggage to innovate" camp. Linux is a useful OS, but it's in 3rd place. The EU has more than twice the population of the US, and comparable living standards. Why can the US make two OS, while Europe struggles to make even one that makes it into 3rd place? That's right, you guessed it, cultural/governmental baggage. See below for more on this topic, brother Blayne.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
I mean really cultural baggage? Please explain one bit of Chinese culture you know about that discourages innovation that hasn't been stamped out of public consciousness from the backlash against the Cultural Revolution.
Taiwan and Japan had significant head starts and the relative advantages of open market export driven economies for a few decades ahead of the mainland but both are slowing down and are devoting ever increasing amounts of gov't investment into R&D to make up for it but the writing is on the wall.
I'm finding it a bit ironic that you completely missed the fact that I accused Japan of the same problems with innovation that China has. Please read more carefully in the future. I really tried to make that particular point stand out, with South Korea and Taiwan on the one hand and China/Japan on the other.
This invalidates both your point about open markets and your point about the US security umbrella.
Blayne, I said China is incapable of real innovation. If you want proof that cultural/governmental baggage is the cause, LOOK at Chinese history. They came up with lots of things, including gunpowder, way before the rest of mankind did. What happened? Baggage happened. Baggage happens.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
China being many times bigger is cherry picking and ignores that they are continueing to modernize and develop if there is some objective index standard that you can source me go right ahead that shows innovativeness but I'm certain you won't also neglect to mention the almost certain statistic that their index of innovativeness is almost certainly rising year by year.
Blayne, how about YOU do the work of looking for an objective index of innovation? The accepted wisdom is that China cannot innovate.
I despair that you will actually read this post carefully enough to actually NOT miss my points altogether. Why would you?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Heh, I forgot about that. Now I really want to name a character in a future short story Samprany of Orincolo.
I feel like I've heard this exact line before.
I wonder if I said the exact same thing last time it came up.
I guess I really need to get working on it!
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote: First, that OS is just building on someone else's work. That doesn't count, just like Ubuntu or Mint don't count as "new" OS.
Here's a quote from the Wiki--" Kylin is an operating system...based on Mach and FreeBSD. It aims to add an extra level of security to that operating system. In this sense, it is a similar effort to Security-Enhanced Linux that is primarily developed by the U.S. National Security Agency..."
There are many technical and practical reasons why a particular nation would not nessasarily come up with their own OS from scratch or instead simply adapt a open source OS instead, but to say that they are incapable of doing so when they are capable of such feats as for example constructing their own Supercomputer that exceeds the US's in processing power is dubious.
If they wanted to they probably could.
quote:Second, you're making excuses and not even giving reasons. WHY does China have trouble bringing back its foreign-educated engineers? WHY would being smaller be helpful for innovation? The US is quite large, yet we lead the world (or come near the top of the pack) in scientific innovations. There are reasons, Blayne. I suggest you investigate them.
Maybe it's because they were Communist back then and not now? Wooing back the Overseas Chinese community is only a relatively recent endeavor, getting back for example their main ICBM guy took the US revoking his security clearance and kicking him back to China.
quote: Your point about being within the US security umbrella is prima facie wrong. Did you even bother to note that I accused Japan of being unable to innovate? The Japanese are practically run by the yakuza, and are (and have been for a long time) incredibly xenophobic, which doesn't exactly encourage innovation.
Bhwa? It's relatively easy for a foreigner to get a work visa to Japan, like the JET program to teach english, also one word for you: Vocaloid, if that's not innovation then I think innovation needs a new definition.
The Japanese taking Ford's assembly line and then vastly improving upon it, is also a form of innovation.
Huh. I wonder why that is, must've been from all that innovating you claim they don't do.
quote: Comparing my arguments with white supremacist doctrine is also prima facie wrong. That's like saying that someone who says that some Muslims are too fanatical hates all Muslims. Drawing distinctions within a group is the opposite of the broad generalizations that characterize bigotry.
I know you don't remember this, but I have also accused Europe (in an older thread) of being in the "too much baggage to innovate" camp. Linux is a useful OS, but it's in 3rd place. The EU has more than twice the population of the US, and comparable living standards. Why can the US make two OS, while Europe struggles to make even one that makes it into 3rd place? That's right, you guessed it, cultural/governmental baggage. See below for more on this topic, brother Blayne.
Aside from the fact that picking out the question of developing OS's is well, cherry picking I would point out that market share is not really a good benchmark for how good the OS is, in fact I'ld rate that Linux is arguably much better for computer science development and rates highest for customization, I even put it on my former Playstation 3, that it has a smaller market share isn't correlation to its usefulness as an OS.
Also, that your argument that you learned in 9th grade is almost exactly the same argument I've seen of white supremacists should be a warning sign, obviously not automatically meaning your a white supremacist or your teacher but its close enough that I think you should be careful how your considering that argument.
It should raise warning flags that you should reconsider your direction/angle of approach.
I also notice that you haven't pointed out what exactly of Chinese CULTURE (which would be common with Taiwan's) is against innovation?
quote: Blayne, I said China is incapable of real innovation. If you want proof that cultural/governmental baggage is the cause, LOOK at Chinese history. They came up with lots of things, including gunpowder, way before the rest of mankind did. What happened? Baggage happened. Baggage happens.
Many problems, such as the Confucian bureaucracy being extremely powerful to the point that if they can suggest to the Emperor that channels be built and maintained they could just as easily 10 years later suggest it be abandoned to save expenses and had the arrogance of being a dominant world power and were not close enough communication to Europe to ever be able to get the message they were sliding backwards until it was too late.
Culturally, governmentally, politically, domestically the China of today while very much a continuation of the past is also much more evolved and developed and have learned their lessons from the century of humiliation, the things that hampered the spread of innovation in the best don't exist now. The bureaucracy cannot just up and go "stop researching this, close this university, lower this budget" etc but is a complex interconnected political system where arbitrary decisions just cant just happen on a time or sustained against sustained backlash.
Such as the "stop using english anrcynoms" memo that won't be enforced.
quote: Blayne, how about YOU do the work of looking for an objective index of innovation? The accepted wisdom is that China cannot innovate.
quote:Neither one can actually create something new. I learned that in 9th-grade Gov't/Civics.
So, um, unless this is a joke, are you actually quoting a ninth grade class as evidence? How is this better than the original thread's post-- which at least is an academic reference, if not a convincing one.
I don't see anything wrong with Blayne's comment that, without further explanation, references or support, your ideas about China and Japan seem shallow and unsupported. I don't think that suggesting that blanket statements like "China, Japan and Europe are unable to innovate" is supremist (not necessarily white but possibly North American) is at all absurd and is in fact relatively reasonable.
I'm not sure what "Europe" (now? fifty years ago?) you are talking about or what the definition of "innovate" is in your head as you have not defined them.
This conversation is like suggesting that creativity is only when you do something so radical that nobody has considered doing it before. I do not believe that creativity, or innovation, is so narrow. Being able to take a mediocre or ordinary product and turn it into a smashingly popular one IS innovation. It requires creativity and change to improve on something.
quote:Blayne, how about YOU do the work of looking for an objective index of innovation? The accepted wisdom is that China cannot innovate...I despair that you will actually read this post carefully enough to actually NOT miss my points altogether.
"Accepted wisdom"? Jesus. Are you kidding? What "points". You mention a ninth grade class and then the "accepted wisdom" as if these are valid points to be rebutted in a sensible fashion.
quote:Big freaking surprise. It's fairly telling that no one else doubts it though.
Blayne, a good number of people because regulars over at Sake just to get away from you
I doubt it. Kwea, your nastiness in this post towards Blayne is just as repellant as Blayne's own flaws-- and most people's flaws. I don't have a problem with this post that Blayne made in style or in content. He posted something he thought was evidence of innovation in China. If you disagree, explain why or ignore the thread.
quote: act like a 3-year old You're a baby. You're naive. more china fanboyism 98% of Blayne threads are "bad idea."
Gosh, what lovely high-roaders you all are. You make Hatrack so pleasant and I really want to spend more time talking with you on other forums where you can slag off other people.
Yes, I descended to sarcasm but this kind of thing makes me furious. If you don't want to discuss it, ignore the thread-- as some of you claim you do. Clearly not!
Blayne's last post contains links to articles, explanation and a relatively strong argument. It does not contain personal attacks. He even moderates his comments:
quote:Also, that your argument that you learned in 9th grade is almost exactly the same argument I've seen of white supremacists should be a warning sign, obviously not automatically meaning your a white supremacist or your teacher but its close enough that I think you should be careful how your considering that argument.
Now: either respond to this post of Blayne's with a rebuttal or, if you do not wish to discuss China or Japan further, cease and the topic will fall away.
Blayne, returning to a single topic repeatedly on a forum will annoy people just as it will annoy people at a dinner party. Varying your conversation will ensure that people are more like to want to converse with you about your preferred topic when it does come up.
You write a blog, if I am not mistaken. Do you talk about China in your blog?
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
I want to make a blog but various mental roadblocks prevent me as well as the fear that no one would read it.
And this was supposed to be specifically a rebuttal to Lyrhawn's post a year or so ago about his skepticism about the Russians/Chinese building a capable 5th gen fighter anytime soon.
IP: Logged |
posted
I very much agree, Teshi. I'm embarrassed that I veer towards that end of the spectrum when responding to Blayne when I really shouldn't. It's not something I'm proud of.
quote:I want to make a blog but various mental roadblocks prevent me as well as the fear that no one would read it.
So the solution to this problem is to offer your musings to an audience with multiple extremely hostile members with a proven history of responding that will provoke response from you, Blayne? To avoid difficulties with 'mental hangups'? That's quite irrational. I'm pointing that out because, hey, growing up time, man.
quote:Neither one can actually create something new. I learned that in 9th-grade Gov't/Civics.
So, um, unless this is a joke, are you actually quoting a ninth grade class as evidence? How is this better than the original thread's post-- which at least is an academic reference, if not a convincing one.
I don't see anything wrong with Blayne's comment that, without further explanation, references or support, your ideas about China and Japan seem shallow and unsupported. I don't think that suggesting that blanket statements like "China, Japan and Europe are unable to innovate" is supremist (not necessarily white but possibly North American) is at all absurd and is in fact relatively reasonable.
I'm not sure what "Europe" (now? fifty years ago?) you are talking about or what the definition of "innovate" is in your head as you have not defined them.
This conversation is like suggesting that creativity is only when you do something so radical that nobody has considered doing it before. I do not believe that creativity, or innovation, is so narrow. Being able to take a mediocre or ordinary product and turn it into a smashingly popular one IS innovation. It requires creativity and change to improve on something.
quote:Blayne, how about YOU do the work of looking for an objective index of innovation? The accepted wisdom is that China cannot innovate...I despair that you will actually read this post carefully enough to actually NOT miss my points altogether.
"Accepted wisdom"? Jesus. Are you kidding? What "points". You mention a ninth grade class and then the "accepted wisdom" as if these are valid points to be rebutted in a sensible fashion.
quote:Big freaking surprise. It's fairly telling that no one else doubts it though.
Blayne, a good number of people because regulars over at Sake just to get away from you
I doubt it. Kwea, your nastiness in this post towards Blayne is just as repellant as Blayne's own flaws-- and most people's flaws. I don't have a problem with this post that Blayne made in style or in content. He posted something he thought was evidence of innovation in China. If you disagree, explain why or ignore the thread.
quote: act like a 3-year old You're a baby. You're naive. more china fanboyism 98% of Blayne threads are "bad idea."
Gosh, what lovely high-roaders you all are. You make Hatrack so pleasant and I really want to spend more time talking with you on other forums where you can slag off other people.
Yes, I descended to sarcasm but this kind of thing makes me furious. If you don't want to discuss it, ignore the thread-- as some of you claim you do. Clearly not!
Blayne's last post contains links to articles, explanation and a relatively strong argument. It does not contain personal attacks. He even moderates his comments:
quote:Also, that your argument that you learned in 9th grade is almost exactly the same argument I've seen of white supremacists should be a warning sign, obviously not automatically meaning your a white supremacist or your teacher but its close enough that I think you should be careful how your considering that argument.
Now: either respond to this post of Blayne's with a rebuttal or, if you do not wish to discuss China or Japan further, cease and the topic will fall away.
Blayne's not in daycare. He doesn't need protecting from hatrackers. Actually, he defends himself fairly well, generally.
As far as redefining innovation...I really ought to let that go. I'm sure it's a throwaway point, one you don't want to defend. I hope, anyway. Seriously, I really do.
Don't lump me in with the Blayne-haters. I treat him much better than they do, when I actually respond to him at all, which is rare, because I really would abuse him sometimes. He has gotten better, but that's really, truthfully, no excuse for the misspelled, sometimes partially incoherent, grammatically inexplicable posting style he showed up here with several years ago. He got abused to the extent that his posting style deserved, and not a lot more.
I do wish that, if people are going to dogpile ANYONE on hatrack, that they do so more gently than they often do with Blayne or Ron (to name two, there may be others). I don't claim to have any more restraint than the ones doing the dogpiling. I happen not to be as invested as they are in Hatrack, so I find it easier to walk away. I realize that it's ridiculous to preach restraint and gentleness when my solution is to ignore. Whatever, I don't know.
And yes, it is the accepted wisdom that the Chinese can't innovate. Do you want proof? Every person who hears that the Chinese invented gunpowder, paper, etc. thousands of years ago says to themselves "then what happened next?".
The whole international business community is becoming more and more wary of doing business in China, largely because of intellectual property theft. Companies present their business plans to a Chinese company, which rejects the plan, then comes out with the exact product a few months later. This is almost old news. "Why innovate when you can steal?"--is the Chinese attitude about it. I think you already know this. I'd be happy to link to a few dozen articles about this happening, if you'd like. I really don't think you give the slightest crap about this issue, though, Teshi. I think you were in a bad mood, and decided to vent by defending Blayne. Your post certainly doesn't have the mark of being clearly thought through.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think as quality of life continues to improve in China, and more time can be spent just tinkering and brain storming, that you will start to see Mainland Chinese innovating.
If you consider the sheer number of Chinese that have immigrated to America or just gone to college here, and then gone on to work for engineering firms it's perfectly obvious they have the mental know-how to innovate.
But right now, they still have a long ways to go economically.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: First, that OS is just building on someone else's work. That doesn't count, just like Ubuntu or Mint don't count as "new" OS.
Here's a quote from the Wiki--" Kylin is an operating system...based on Mach and FreeBSD. It aims to add an extra level of security to that operating system. In this sense, it is a similar effort to Security-Enhanced Linux that is primarily developed by the U.S. National Security Agency..."
There are many technical and practical reasons why a particular nation would not nessasarily come up with their own OS from scratch or instead simply adapt a open source OS instead, but to say that they are incapable of doing so when they are capable of such feats as for example constructing their own Supercomputer that exceeds the US's in processing power is dubious.
If they wanted to they probably could.
quote:Second, you're making excuses and not even giving reasons. WHY does China have trouble bringing back its foreign-educated engineers? WHY would being smaller be helpful for innovation? The US is quite large, yet we lead the world (or come near the top of the pack) in scientific innovations. There are reasons, Blayne. I suggest you investigate them.
Maybe it's because they were Communist back then and not now? Wooing back the Overseas Chinese community is only a relatively recent endeavor, getting back for example their main ICBM guy took the US revoking his security clearance and kicking him back to China.
quote: Your point about being within the US security umbrella is prima facie wrong. Did you even bother to note that I accused Japan of being unable to innovate? The Japanese are practically run by the yakuza, and are (and have been for a long time) incredibly xenophobic, which doesn't exactly encourage innovation.
Bhwa? It's relatively easy for a foreigner to get a work visa to Japan, like the JET program to teach english, also one word for you: Vocaloid, if that's not innovation then I think innovation needs a new definition.
The Japanese taking Ford's assembly line and then vastly improving upon it, is also a form of innovation.
Huh. I wonder why that is, must've been from all that innovating you claim they don't do.
quote: Comparing my arguments with white supremacist doctrine is also prima facie wrong. That's like saying that someone who says that some Muslims are too fanatical hates all Muslims. Drawing distinctions within a group is the opposite of the broad generalizations that characterize bigotry.
I know you don't remember this, but I have also accused Europe (in an older thread) of being in the "too much baggage to innovate" camp. Linux is a useful OS, but it's in 3rd place. The EU has more than twice the population of the US, and comparable living standards. Why can the US make two OS, while Europe struggles to make even one that makes it into 3rd place? That's right, you guessed it, cultural/governmental baggage. See below for more on this topic, brother Blayne.
Aside from the fact that picking out the question of developing OS's is well, cherry picking I would point out that market share is not really a good benchmark for how good the OS is, in fact I'ld rate that Linux is arguably much better for computer science development and rates highest for customization, I even put it on my former Playstation 3, that it has a smaller market share isn't correlation to its usefulness as an OS.
Also, that your argument that you learned in 9th grade is almost exactly the same argument I've seen of white supremacists should be a warning sign, obviously not automatically meaning your a white supremacist or your teacher but its close enough that I think you should be careful how your considering that argument.
It should raise warning flags that you should reconsider your direction/angle of approach.
I also notice that you haven't pointed out what exactly of Chinese CULTURE (which would be common with Taiwan's) is against innovation?
quote: Blayne, I said China is incapable of real innovation. If you want proof that cultural/governmental baggage is the cause, LOOK at Chinese history. They came up with lots of things, including gunpowder, way before the rest of mankind did. What happened? Baggage happened. Baggage happens.
Many problems, such as the Confucian bureaucracy being extremely powerful to the point that if they can suggest to the Emperor that channels be built and maintained they could just as easily 10 years later suggest it be abandoned to save expenses and had the arrogance of being a dominant world power and were not close enough communication to Europe to ever be able to get the message they were sliding backwards until it was too late.
Culturally, governmentally, politically, domestically the China of today while very much a continuation of the past is also much more evolved and developed and have learned their lessons from the century of humiliation, the things that hampered the spread of innovation in the best don't exist now. The bureaucracy cannot just up and go "stop researching this, close this university, lower this budget" etc but is a complex interconnected political system where arbitrary decisions just cant just happen on a time or sustained against sustained backlash.
Such as the "stop using english anrcynoms" memo that won't be enforced.
quote: Blayne, how about YOU do the work of looking for an objective index of innovation? The accepted wisdom is that China cannot innovate.
OK, first, I'll believe the Chinese can create an OS from the ground up when I SEE it.
Blayne, Communism isn't a natural disaster. The Chinese ALLOWED it. Granted, Mao was never elected, but the Chinese people have revolted many times throughout history. They chose not to overthrow him. Communism was, in part, their CHOICE. Would Americans have tolerated it? I doubt it. Those are two very different cultures. One innovates well now, one USED to, about a thousand years ago. Things can change in a thousand years.
Have you ever asked yourself why people smart enough to invent gunpowder couldn't figure out inventing, oh, I don't know, the GUN? The Chinese didn't suddenly get dumber. Their culture attained a critical mass of baggage, ruining innovation.
Your first link doesn't list one remarkable innovation that the Japanese have made. You can patent things all day. That doesn't mean they are interesting, useful, or profitable. Lots of patents does NOT necessarily mean lots of useful innovations.
Your second link suffers from the same problem. I don't care HOW much money the Chinese throw at innovation. The fact is, they're still stealing ideas like babies drink milk, which is to say, as much as they want, as often as they want. They have no concept of fair play.
As far as improving the assembly line, sure, yes, the Japanese improve almost everything America invents. That doesn't mean they invent it. If you can't see the difference between Ender's Game fanfic and the original novel, what can I say? Even if the fanfic is better, it still isn't the original idea. That's why OSC gets paid, and fanfic writers get...kudos, at best. The genius of the Japanese is that, even though they can't invent anything useful, they manage to work hard and still make money anyway. That's fairly impressive.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I think as quality of life continues to improve in China, and more time can be spent just tinkering and brain storming, that you will start to see Mainland Chinese innovating.
If you consider the sheer number of Chinese that have immigrated to America or just gone to college here, and then gone on to work for engineering firms it's perfectly obvious they have the mental know-how to innovate.
But right now, they still have a long ways to go economically.
It's not that they're poor, Blackblade. It's that they are still stuck in the past. The whole "venerating the ancestors", "never question your teacher", "do as you are told", "never disobey your parents" line has gotten so overwhelming that they just can't think outside the box, so to speak.
The Chinese might eventually innovate, but it won't happen until their culture shifts and changes through exposure to the West.
I never questioned their mental abilities. They did manage to invent gunpowder, a way to triangulate earthquake epicenters, etc. and all before Europe ever made it out of the Dark Ages.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I am sure I am not missed, at least by most.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
And to be honest, you have gotten a lot better about keeping things readable, and trying to make your points more coherently. And some of the time I find myself agreeing with a few points, or at least understanding your points better.
