posted
At my wife's work, a group of female teachers and aides were talking about the upcoming St. Valentine's Day holiday.
The conversation involved two topics--
What gifts the women were expecting--or even demanding.
What rewards of a physical pleasing nature they would be giving to their special men.
It became quite clear that -- the better the gift, the better the reward -- and a gift unworthy of them would mean a lonely cold time for the men.
Is this not prostitution? Is not the definition the exchanging of money or valuables for sex? Is there any other holiday where our society encourages ho-behavior?
Well, Mardis Gras.
Although the presents for sex suggested for Valentines Day are much better than the beads for peeps offered on Mardis Gras. Its the difference between a street walker and a $200 a day prostitute. They both offer the same services, we are just haggling over the fee.
Back to Valentine's Day.
I did learn one important lesson from listening in on these conversations...
Sexy lingerie by itself is not payment for pleasures to be performed. Its more of a request for cos-play, and such requests are usually more expensive than the --em--normal fee. So if you have a gift from the "angel" collection, you also need to bring flowers, and candy, and a I-tunes gift card wouldn't hurt either.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Costly but worthless gifts facilitate courtship ... "We find robust equilibrium solutions in which mating is predominantly facilitated by an ‘extravagant' gift which is costly to the male but intrinsically worthless to the female. By being costly to the male, the gift acts as a credible signal of his intentions or quality. At the same time, its lack of intrinsic value to the female serves to deter a ‘gold-digger', who has no intention of mating with the male, from accepting the gift. In this way, an economically inefficient gift enables mutually suitable partners to be matched."
posted
Can't we just get rid of the pomp then and just write the woman a check? It's the ultimate gift certificate.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you were responding to Mucus, then no. The whole point is that the gift has to be worthless in spite of being expensive. Flowers are ideal.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's depressing. I always thought of it as just a day where you just get to be all soppy and romantic and remember to actually say you love each other.
Or maybe an excuse to tell your secret crush that you like them, or send flowers to a lonely friend.
It's supposed to be fun and sweet, not a business arrangement. But then, I don't really like people spending money on me for no reason and I hate feeling like I'm being bought. (Yes, so apparently I'm a freak).
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Some people say that women like to be given expensive signs of affection for evolutionary reasons.
Other research indicates that money and status are the most attractive elements a man can have for a woman in general.
I saw a study where the prestige of the brand of shirt you wore affected your chance of getting a date with a woman.
Take those things as you will.
Personally, I think there are likely to be hardwired preferences in both men and women. Men are likely predisposed to like women who are potentially very fertile, and women are likely predisposed to like men who can take care of them.
posted
We don't celebrate Valentine's Day, as such. As a couple who tend to pay attention to each other all year 'round, we generally see Valentine's Day as kind of like amateur's night.
Instead we pick a different night, when it's easier to get a reservation or when after-V-Day sales are on.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wow, this brings back a conversation we had at work this week. We were talking about V-day, which generally means I'm the "odd man out" since I'm the only unattached person in our age range in the office.
We were harassing my semi-newly married coworker (male) about what he was going to do for his wife. It's their 2nd V-day together, but he's notoriously unromantic. This meant he was pretty much catching hell from the rest of us about what he SHOULD be doing for his wife.
My engaged coworker (female) then proceeds to say how she would feel if her Fiance paid as little attention to V-Day as our (male) co-worker was.
Then I asked her, "So what are you getting Brandon (Fiance) for Valentines?", and she says, "nothing!", like it should be obvious. We then got into a debate, as an office, about whether or not a girl is supposed to get the guy a present on V-Day as well. This girl and one other male coworker thought that only men were responsible for V-Day gifts, but the rest of us thought it was a mutual exchange sort of day.
What do you guys think?
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
The mutual exchange is explained in Darth Mauve's link. Your coworker said "nothing", because it would be inappropriate to say she was going to go down on him.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Around here, V-day, like everywhere else, is generally considered to be only a "guy does something nice for the girl" day.
But Sweetest Day is generally considered to be the opposite, where the girl is expected to do something equally nice for their boyfriend/husband.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Huh. I've never been involved in a valentine's day where we didn't exchange gifts. And no, not a gift of her going down on me after I gave her flowers.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
V Day last year I got my boyfriend a kit for a 1:1 Ark of the Covenant. Yes, it was expensive and insane. This year, I just took us out to a fancy dinner last night. Last year he got me a Kenshin cel and this year he got me a 1:1 Smile Time Angel puppet (yes, wee little puppet man).
We love getting each other stuff.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to be blah about Valentines in general (like Chris said above, its for amateurs) but now that I work for a Large Greeting Card Company I loathe it. I got up this morning at 5am to straighten 120 feet of cards that look like they had been worked over by a pack of hyper 3 year olds. Posts: 262 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Well, I think we'll probably exchange a gift of going down on each other. That works, right?
But isn't that more of an all-the-time gift exchange?
you get v-day out of the way and can still say you 'participated.' Without having to do much out of the ordinary.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Don't both people involved feel romantic love for each other?
(Also, what about gay couples? Would the more effeminate one get all the gifts?)
V-Day should be for both partners of the relationship, no question.
With gay couple both are in my experience expected to give gifts. And no going down on each other wouldn't count as a gift. That's part of a normal sexual experience and if you are not already that intimate with them then just doing it for a gift seems really skeevy.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Don't both people involved feel romantic love for each other?
(Also, what about gay couples? Would the more effeminate one get all the gifts?)
V-Day should be for both partners of the relationship, no question.
With gay couple both are in my experience expected to give gifts. And no going down on each other wouldn't count as a gift. That's part of a normal sexual experience and if you are not already that intimate with them then just doing it for a gift seems really skeevy.
You make sex sound like brushing your teeth. It being a normal part of your relationship does not preclude the possibility of making it a special event. It's kind of like eating. My husband eat at least two meals together on most days, that doesn't preclude going out to a nice restaurant or preparing a gourmet candlelight dinner at home from being special gifts.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's not that having sex has to be an everyday thing. I know for most couples it wouldn't be. My problem would be performing a sex act because they gave you a pretty bauble.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most women I know do something for their husbands on v-day, mostly making a nice dinner, putting out candles, whatever. I never really viewed it as a girl gets stuff day. I did make dinner (for me a big deal) and he got me flowers.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
We stopped giving V-Day gifts to each other after the first year. Now we do an annual weekend getaway instead over President's Day weekend which is always near it.
She loves getting flowers, but made it clear she does not want the overpriced ones sold on V-Day.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
One Valentine's Day a few years back I wondered out loud exactly why Valentines and anniversaries had seemed to evolve into a "man does something extravagant for woman" days.
Without even looking up a coworker said, "Because she doesn't care if you never have sex again."
Posts: 270 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: It's not that having sex has to be an everyday thing. I know for most couples it wouldn't be. My problem would be performing a sex act because they gave you a pretty bauble.
I think that summary of the situation is inaccurate. The fact that the giving of baubles is a common element of courting behavior and often a prelude to sex does not make it equivalent to exchanging sex for pretty baubles.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Flying Fish: Without even looking up a coworker said, "Because she doesn't care if you never have sex again."
This has not been my experience. In fact many of my women friends complain that they are more interested in having sex than their male partners.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
If you pulled out the stops everyday, it would make it meaningless.
To the OP. When men get together they can tend to be spurred on by each other's machismo to present themselves in a more sexist and selfish way then is totally reflective of reality. I'm quite sure women are the same, and the claims they make about what happens if they aren't "treated right" need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by jebus202: ITT: Cynics and the lonely.
Pff, I love valentine's day. To me, it's a day of the year which at the very least reminds you to express your love.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by aeolusdallas: It's not that having sex has to be an everyday thing. I know for most couples it wouldn't be. My problem would be performing a sex act because they gave you a pretty bauble.
I think that summary of the situation is inaccurate. The fact that the giving of baubles is a common element of courting behavior and often a prelude to sex does not make it equivalent to exchanging sex for pretty baubles.
When a women is saying (as in the example at the start of this thread) that the nicer the gift the freakier she is going to be or if she says if the gift isn't goo enough he isn't getting sex then yeah it's the same thing as prostitution. The going down in return for a good enough gift is even more blatant.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote: When a women is saying (as in the example at the start of this thread) that the nicer the gift the freakier she is going to be or if she says if the gift isn't goo enough he isn't getting sex then yeah it's the same thing as prostitution. The going down in return for a good enough gift is even more blatant.
Yes and no. They're already in a relationship. You could view it as being similar to doing the dishes, or a quid pro quo. If the guy does something supernice, the girl in this case is willing to reciprocate.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Despite the start of this thread, I am a romantic.
I am in love with love and being in love.
For my wife and I, Valentines day is simply a chance to express the romance we feel instead of placing it on hold behind life's daily dull routines.
However, the women who were stating at my wife's work--that the value of the gift will determine the wildness of the night--suck the romance right out of Valentine's day just as much as the man who thinks a generic Hallmark card picked up with a bottle of Tequila will make the night special.
Even the idea that sex and valentine's gifts are like household chores--an even and fair exchange of duties--defeats the romance of the day.
I guess I'm like the Baptist Minister at Christmas who laments that we need to remember the Reason for the Season.
As such, here is my list of Romantic Rules for lovemaking in a perfect world.
1) It is not an exchange. One can earn sex through cash, gifts, or an exchange of services--even household chores. One does not earn lovemaking through those ways.
2) It is not a contest. You don't keep score. You don't say "I did this X times so you owe me this Y times."
3) It is a celebration with the only goal of each person is to bring the most pleasure to the other as possible--and to enjoy the pleasure that the one you love receives.
4) It is private, between the two of you alone, because it is all about opening yourself up to the other, and trusting that the other won't betray that trust. So bragging and complaining to friends later is not appreciated.
5) Finally, it is unscripted. It has no limits or rules other than love be involved. Lovemaking is not just sex. It can be as short as a deep kiss or as long as a lifetime. It does not build to one moment of joy, but extends before and beyond and repeats.
That is what Valentine's should be about. Not cards or candy, not flowers or jewelry. Its a celebration of romantic love.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
