posted
Is it even possible to end that sentence without proving that the first part is not true?
Today's lovely discussion with my supposedly open minded friends was how their sons can't take dance cause it will make them gay. While they will concede that some of homosexuality might be genetic, how could environment not influence it. And while they are ok with gay people, they are terrified of their sons being gay. And they have friends who are gay, so they totally aren't homophobic (sorry, if you are playing that card, it is a bit more convincing when you have something more recent then ten years ago your husband home taught-so church assigned friendship- a gay guy.
So, right now I am frustrated and annoyed and sick of hearing this crap. And tired of being polite. I didn't let the statments go without contradiction, but a part of me just wants to shake them and shout you homophobic idiots! Being in ballet does not mean your son will be gay, but the fact that you won't let your kid take the class does say that if your kid is gay, your probably going to make it a whole lot worse. And one of these individuals is in an authority position, so if you were gay LDS and in this area, you would probably be guilted into talking to him about your "sinful" desires.
Just want to scream and insult and shake these people. I know that won't do any good, but so sick of those statements and attitudes. I do believe my calm, reasonable, non insulting statements are more likely good in the long run, but I just want to rant. And I can't do it on facebook cause I am friends with some of these people.
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"I’m not a misogynistic and racist person...But I do find those jokes funny, so I say them." -- Daniel Tosh
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Why are you really upset? Is it because a) they don't want their son to be gay, b) they think that ballet lessons might influence him in that way, or c) they don't consider themselves homophobic?
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Let me get this straight, they think some guy who's in a room full of girls dressed mostly in tights, who gets the opportunity to grab and lift them to his hearts content, and do so in an activity that is more dangerous, exhausting, and prone to injury (other than wussy brain injuries) than football--may be gay? I think its the most macho thing imaginable.
I think the response is, "Oh, I understand that you fear turning your son gay. (many closeted gay men do) Why some of my best friends fear becoming homosexuals. I don't hold it against them any more than one should."
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I can't speak for scholarette, but there's a certain level of blatant ignorance that I find very frustrating. "I won't let my boy dance because of teh gay" definitely falls in that category.
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quote:Let me get this straight, they think some guy who's in a room full of girls dressed mostly in tights, who gets the opportunity to grab and lift them to his hearts content, and do so in an activity that is more dangerous, exhausting, and prone to injury (other than wussy brain injuries) than football--may be gay? I think its the most macho thing imaginable.
Are you saying that you think that ballet dancers are more likely to be heterosexual than the general population?
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I think I am annoyed cause my friends aren't supposed to be homophobic. And yet it looks like they are. And I don't like that.
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The only time I've ever heard anyone say "Now, I ain't no racist or nothin', but", it was immediately followed by "but I just can't get along with them damn Chinese. There's just somethin' about 'em."
Yes--there's something about an entire constellation of ethnic groups that prevents you from getting along with members of any of them. How could that possibly be construed as racist?
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Is it even possible to end that sentence without proving that the first part is not true?
Today's lovely discussion with my supposedly open minded friends was how their sons can't take dance cause it will make them gay. While they will concede that some of homosexuality might be genetic, how could environment not influence it. And while they are ok with gay people, they are terrified of their sons being gay. And they have friends who are gay, so they totally aren't homophobic (sorry, if you are playing that card, it is a bit more convincing when you have something more recent then ten years ago your husband home taught-so church assigned friendship- a gay guy.
So, right now I am frustrated and annoyed and sick of hearing this crap. And tired of being polite. I didn't let the statments go without contradiction, but a part of me just wants to shake them and shout you homophobic idiots! Being in ballet does not mean your son will be gay, but the fact that you won't let your kid take the class does say that if your kid is gay, your probably going to make it a whole lot worse. And one of these individuals is in an authority position, so if you were gay LDS and in this area, you would probably be guilted into talking to him about your "sinful" desires.
Just want to scream and insult and shake these people. I know that won't do any good, but so sick of those statements and attitudes. I do believe my calm, reasonable, non insulting statements are more likely good in the long run, but I just want to rant. And I can't do it on facebook cause I am friends with some of these people.
Perhaps you should get your friends to watch Billy Elliot. Great film.
I have heard the phrase, "I'm not homophobic but..." used by different people indicating two different things that did not make them homophobic.
1: They didn't have any homosexual friends,(edit: or indeed, any gay neighbors/coworkers) they'd just never encountered any in day to day course of events or at social encounters.
2: Indicated that for religious reasons they could not condone an active homosexual lifestyle, but they accepted that non-mormons should have just as much freedom as they did to live according to the dictates of their own conscience.
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Nobody's ever homophobic. They will always insist that their own particular distaste for homosexuality is not in any way homophobic and can be explained away in ways which make it seem entirely unhurtful and fair to gays. Even if they would react in shock and horror if their own child announced that they were gay, they aren't homophobic. Even if they find homosexuality to be an unclean aberration and a moral wrong which should be suppressed or 'cured,' they're not homophobic. Even if they support laws for their discrimination against homosexuals based on any or all of these things, they're not homophobic.
Nearly nobody even admits being 'anti-gay.' Not even if they're solidly defined by all the above traits of people who are anti-gay.
Same thing with racism. Nobody's racist. Everyone's got the oft touted black friends or our own homegrown trotted-out examples of Jamaican neighbors. This guy even lets his black friends use his bathroom. He's not a racist, he said so himself! He just refuses to allow interracial marriage.
None of this is to say there's no improper labeling of people as racist or homophobic. But in most cases, yeah, they are. They would sure as the day get squicked out in certain circumstances involving gay people, and they usually are that way in a way which is paired with their discrimination against or hate for homosexuals.
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Samprimary: That runs contrary to my experience. I have certainly heard the phrase, "If that makes me a homophobe, then I guess I am."
I had friends who helped me come to terms with my homophobia, as well as helping me overcome it. Part of that was convincing me to admit that I was homophobic.
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It does take some serious getting used to, to be around gay people, especially when they kiss!
Gosh and golly, I thought I was so open minded about this kind of thing, until I saw two dudes making out at my college...whooo boy!
You did the right thing scholarette, for one, by not calling them idiots and hypocrites etc, and two by venting your frustration here.
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Let me get this straight, they think some guy who's in a room full of girls dressed mostly in tights, who gets the opportunity to grab and lift them to his hearts content, and do so in an activity that is more dangerous, exhausting, and prone to injury (other than wussy brain injuries) than football--may be gay? I think its the most macho thing imaginable.
I think the response is, "Oh, I understand that you fear turning your son gay. (many closeted gay men do) Why some of my best friends fear becoming homosexuals. I don't hold it against them any more than one should."
I was going to point this out. Not to mention that most sports involve crashing into sweaty scantily clad men.
Mostly I find that stereotype to be a bit... well, silly, really. I don't think an activity or a colour has the power to change someone's sexuality. And again, you're a danger, living up GIRLS in scanty underwear! Dancing is where it's at if you want to meet nice girls.
And guys for that matter. But there's a lot of girls.
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I feel no need to change my views and opinions in such a way that I would no longer be considered homophobic.
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I'm actually really annoyed with my cousin right now. He's only 19, and is incredibly racist. My own brothers are more racist than I would like, having spent far too much time with my increasingly intolerant grandfather, but this cousin is unbelievable!
For example, he says stuff like:
I'm not racist but.... all the black people in my classes are idiots.
I'm not racist but.... the black guys at UTSA always park in the handicap spots.
I'm not racist but... it's all the black people using food stamps to buy soda that are ruining this country.
I'm not racist but... the list goes ON and ON and ON.
What makes this worse is that this cousin and my brother had one other really close friend in highschool... a half hispanic/half black boy! He'll say this kind of stuff in front of this friend, who, for some reason doesn't come around as much anymore! It makes me so sick.
I correct him all the time, but I make no impact, because he's convinced himself he's not racist. I just don't know what to do anymore. I send my son out of the room anytime people get on these kicks, I chastise everyone (including my parents) every time anyone makes a racist joke or remark, but I'm terrified this sort of thing is going to "leak" into my son just from being around it.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Is it even possible to end that sentence without proving that the first part is not true?
Today's lovely discussion with my supposedly open minded friends was how their sons can't take dance cause it will make them gay. While they will concede that some of homosexuality might be genetic, how could environment not influence it. And while they are ok with gay people, they are terrified of their sons being gay. And they have friends who are gay, so they totally aren't homophobic (sorry, if you are playing that card, it is a bit more convincing when you have something more recent then ten years ago your husband home taught-so church assigned friendship- a gay guy.
So, right now I am frustrated and annoyed and sick of hearing this crap. And tired of being polite. I didn't let the statments go without contradiction, but a part of me just wants to shake them and shout you homophobic idiots! Being in ballet does not mean your son will be gay, but the fact that you won't let your kid take the class does say that if your kid is gay, your probably going to make it a whole lot worse. And one of these individuals is in an authority position, so if you were gay LDS and in this area, you would probably be guilted into talking to him about your "sinful" desires.
Just want to scream and insult and shake these people. I know that won't do any good, but so sick of those statements and attitudes. I do believe my calm, reasonable, non insulting statements are more likely good in the long run, but I just want to rant. And I can't do it on facebook cause I am friends with some of these people.
A couple things:
1. People often say "I'm not _______ but" because people are so damned sensitive and judgmental that they feel they need the qualifier before they make a comment on something. What follows is thus not automatically a racist or homophobic comment, it might just be a case of excessive preemptive qualifying.
2. Not wanting your son to be gay doesn't make you a homophobe any more than not wanting your son to be blind makes you hate handicapped people. You might scoff at the comparison, but the simple fact of the matter is that being gay likely means a more difficult life than a straight kid would have to go through. They'll have to deal with more identity issues and suffer more torment from less tolerant aspects of society. And while they would accept their child as gay, they don't want that suffering for him. That strikes me as perfectly natural.
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quote:You did the right thing scholarette, for one, by not calling them idiots and hypocrites etc, and two by venting your frustration here.
Why would they be hypocrites given the information scholarette has shown?
quote:the fact that you won't let your kid take the class does say that if your kid is gay, your probably going to make it a whole lot worse.
I don't know, scholarette-- it's possible you're making this judgment based on things the rest of us don't have access to. I am not sure that what you've presented so far is indicative of making the problem "a whole lot worse."
This single data point is not convincing, to me.
But I understand your POV.
How do you think LDS parents should deal with a child with homosexual desires from within a context of their religion?
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: 2. Not wanting your son to be gay doesn't make you a homophobe any more than not wanting your son to be blind makes you hate handicapped people. You might scoff at the comparison, but the simple fact of the matter is that being gay likely means a more difficult life than a straight kid would have to go through. They'll have to deal with more identity issues and suffer more torment from less tolerant aspects of society. And while they would accept their child as gay, they don't want that suffering for him. That strikes me as perfectly natural. [/QB]
There's a big difference between "not wanting" your child to be gay and being "shocked and horrified" at the very idea that they might be gay.
I certainly don't WANT my son to be gay. It is a very hard life, and I'll never forget the internal torture one of my close friends as a teenager went through. It's one of the biggest reasons why I will never believe that being gay is a "choice" and it's also one of the biggest reasons why I really hope my son isn't gay. The child has enough social problems without having to tack that on.
I also, selfishly, would love to see my own, incredibly flawed, genes carried on into another generation. Since my son is my only child, that's another reason why I hope he isn't gay.
But I wouldn't feel any sort of shock, revulsion, or anything like that if it were to turn out, in another 5-10 years, that he is. I would be worried for him, but that's pretty much it.
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quote:I don't know, scholarette-- it's possible you're making this judgment based on things the rest of us don't have access to. I am not sure that what you've presented so far is indicative of making the problem "a whole lot worse."
I do think it's likely that someone who fears sending his or her son to ballet lest that son become gay is particularly ill-suited to properly parenting a gay child, barring any remarkable epiphanies.
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Lyrhawn, DDDash responded what I would respond.
Scott R- yeah, there is more that makes me feel this way but hard to write up without more context.
Regarding your question about how LDS parents should respond, I don't have a good answer but that is an excellent question.
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quote:I do think it's likely that someone who fears sending his or her son to ballet lest that son become gay is particularly ill-suited to properly parenting a gay child, barring any remarkable epiphanies.
I allow for epiphanies in general. It doesn't cost me anything but cynicism.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: 2. Not wanting your son to be gay doesn't make you a homophobe any more than not wanting your son to be blind makes you hate handicapped people. You might scoff at the comparison, but the simple fact of the matter is that being gay likely means a more difficult life than a straight kid would have to go through. They'll have to deal with more identity issues and suffer more torment from less tolerant aspects of society. And while they would accept their child as gay, they don't want that suffering for him. That strikes me as perfectly natural.
I once worked with someone who told me she hoped her son turned out to be gay, just so she could show how accepting she was of his lifestyle. Maybe it's just me, but I thought that was taking it a little far. That poor kid is probably sitting in his room right now, wondering how to break the news to his mom that he has a girlfriend.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Samprimary: That runs contrary to my experience.
Keep in mind that 'oh, nobody's ever an X' is a point of snark rather than a literal one. It discusses the tendency of those who are most obviously racist to have an absolute ignorance and inability/unwillingness to observe why they really are exactly what they say they are not.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: How do you think LDS parents should deal with a child with homosexual desires from within a context of their religion?
I know you weren't asking me, but I'd just love to share my opinion.
I think parents should put the happiness of their child first.
They should take a very critical look at responses and methods employed by those in the church in similar situations, and how they influence the happiness of the child.
They should find out what the child wants. This is likely to take a long time, because the child is not going to be able to easily separate what he has been taught he SHOULD want from what he actually wants.
Then they should by now realize that they need to let their kid figure it out, and try not to coerce him in ways that will make him miserable, and help him think clearly enough about the natural consequences of his actions - the ones independent of the religious beliefs - so that his (possible) despair over hypothetical spiritual consequences doesn't too heavily impair his judgment when he decides to act on his desires.
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Basically, you're saying that in this instance, LDS parents should put aside their religious beliefs.
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quote:I also, selfishly, would love to see my own, incredibly flawed, genes carried on into another generation. Since my son is my only child, that's another reason why I hope he isn't gay.
I know several homosexual couples that have managed to pass their genes on.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: My views on the subject are not something that I feel a need to "overcome".
I'd be willing to bet our views are not far removed from each other, but I definitely had a hostility issue with gay people when I was much younger. That certainly needed to be overcome.
scifibum: Porter's take on your approach is how I am parsing your suggestion.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Basically, you're saying that in this instance, LDS parents should put aside their religious beliefs.
No, I think it's more an issue of not enforcing your beliefs on others rather than putting aside your own religious beliefs. Although, I admit that it does get tricky when it involves children, age, and the line separating coercion and informing.
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I'm not sure what religious beliefs you think you might have to put aside in order to treat your gay child with love and respect in a manner that doesn't promote self-loathing or irresponsible behavior.
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I'm not sure what religious beliefs you think you might have to put aside in order to treat your gay child with love and respect in a manner that doesn't promote self-loathing or irresponsible behavior.
Oh I'm fairly certain we need only start with the concept of God's will being more important/correct than our own.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: 2. Not wanting your son to be gay doesn't make you a homophobe any more than not wanting your son to be blind makes you hate handicapped people. You might scoff at the comparison, but the simple fact of the matter is that being gay likely means a more difficult life than a straight kid would have to go through. They'll have to deal with more identity issues and suffer more torment from less tolerant aspects of society. And while they would accept their child as gay, they don't want that suffering for him. That strikes me as perfectly natural.
There's a big difference between "not wanting" your child to be gay and being "shocked and horrified" at the very idea that they might be gay.
I certainly don't WANT my son to be gay. It is a very hard life, and I'll never forget the internal torture one of my close friends as a teenager went through. It's one of the biggest reasons why I will never believe that being gay is a "choice" and it's also one of the biggest reasons why I really hope my son isn't gay. The child has enough social problems without having to tack that on.
I also, selfishly, would love to see my own, incredibly flawed, genes carried on into another generation. Since my son is my only child, that's another reason why I hope he isn't gay.
But I wouldn't feel any sort of shock, revulsion, or anything like that if it were to turn out, in another 5-10 years, that he is. I would be worried for him, but that's pretty much it. [/QB]
I didn't see anything in the OP about "shocked and horrified" or "revulsion."
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quote:Then they should by now realize that they need to let their kid figure it out, and try not to coerce him in ways that will make him miserable, and help him think clearly enough about the natural consequences of his actions - the ones independent of the religious beliefs - so that his (possible) despair over hypothetical spiritual consequences doesn't too heavily impair his judgment when he decides to act on his desires.
This is the portion of your answer that makes me think that MPH's response is correct.
I'm not sure how-- if you're a believing Mormon-- you can remove religious beliefs about the consequences of sin from a discussion about behavior that the religion considers sinful. If you are a believing Mormon, then doing so is a bit monstrous, actually.
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quote:I'm not sure how-- if you're a believing Mormon-- you can remove religious beliefs about the consequences of sin from a discussion about behavior that the religion considers sinful.
posted
Lyrhawn- you are right that nothing I posted specifically goes to shock/horror being the response. During the conversation, it seemed more shock horror response. I will try to be more charitable and assume it was shock horror about all the conflicts and pain their child will have.
For age, my daughter is 4 so parents of 3-5 year olds. My daughter is also really into gymnastics, so the conversation has actually come up repeatedly--I mention tumbling or tryouts or whatever she is doing, other parent says, that sounds so much fun- but I have a son so we can't do any dance. I say, until this year (preteam) the classes were mixed gender and there has always been several boys in her class. There is a boys class too that is the same level as my daughter. And then other parent says, oh, but I don't want my boy to be gay. So, it isn't just this one group or one time. Perhaps it is an indicator I talk too much about bin's tumbling class (but she is super talented and amazing and we spend 3 days a week at the gym).
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