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BBC report. Looks like someone was trying to get the Prime Minister; first a bomb outside the government building where he has his office, then a gunman firing indiscriminately at a youth camp where he was supposed to be making an appearance. Apparently domestic, not al-Quaida or similar groups.
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So it's some domestic right-winger, but that's not going to stop people from having assumed that this was an Islam thing.
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Well, it doesn't necessarily help that the news in the US (I was watching ABC at my parents house where I'm visiting), referred to it as "terror attacks." That's strongly evokative of Islamic militant terrorist attacks.
Is it really a terror attack when the person doing the attacking is not advancing the agenda of an actual terror group? That seems rather an important distinction.
Perhaps "wantonly violent attack" is a little more appropriate. Why is it automatically terrorism? I don't know the politics of the attacker. That is an important detail to note. I'm just pointing out- "terror" is not the only type of attack that can possibly be committed.
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If the aim was to kill Stoltenberg, 'attempted assassination' is perhaps a more accurate description. Assassinations usually do have some sort of political agenda, but are not explicitly about spreading terror; perhaps the deaths were collateral damage? But the gunning down of children on Utøya seems to contradict this; sure, Stoltenberg was supposed to be there, but a rifle and a single shot would seem more effective than indiscriminate shooting into a crowd of teenagers.
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quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: I bet the shooter got his guns at a gun show. Oh wait..
You're completely right, Capax! If this shooter didn't get his weapon from a gun show, that just proves that concerns about the frequent ease of purchase and poor background checks at gun shows (to say nothing of stolen goods) were never anything but bunk!
Oh, wait...that's actually a deeply stupid idea. That sets aside the classiness of openly using the death of scores (maybe even a hundred or more, as they're still searching) of kids to crow about your position on gun control. I'm grateful you're making it so clear I was not wrong to hold your approach to politics in contempt.
--------
By posing as a police officer and telling a bunch of kids to gather round, apparently. Freaking hell:( Awful.
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Utilizing absolutely normal human panic with a plan thought out ahead of time, working with the confusion and flight responses you can generate with a lethal assault on a group of people, wearing a police uniform, attacking mostly young people trapped on an island.
This is all pretty brutal. Also, since some dopes out there in the media and abroad are still reflexively pinning this on islamic terrorism, I'm going to go ahead and put this here, just so everyone knows.
quote:The Norwegian police charged a 32-year-old man on Saturday, who was identified by the Norwegian media as Anders Behring Breivik. The photo above is a screen grab from his Facebook page, which has since been blocked. Breivik has been identified as a "Christian fundamentalist with right-wing connections," according to the Times, as well as with anti-Muslim views, according to multiple sources.
quote:According to the BBC, Breivik has a Facebook and Twitter account that he set up a mere few days ago on July 17, where he identifies himself as a Christian and a conservative. There are several reports of his anti-Muslim views. In a post in Norwegian in an online forum on December 2009, a user named Anders Behring Breivik claims there is not one country where Muslims have peacefully lived with non-Muslims, stating that instead it has had "catastrophic consequences" for non-Muslims.
quote:Apart from his anti-immigration policies, the Daily Mail and Fox News report that Breivik also argued that socialism was breaking down traditions, culture, national identity and other societal structures and that this in turn made society weak and confused.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Oh, wait...that's actually a deeply stupid idea. That sets aside the classiness of openly using the death of scores (maybe even a hundred or more, as they're still searching) of kids to crow about your position on gun control. I'm grateful you're making it so clear I was not wrong to hold your approach to politics in contempt.
Yeah, also, this ^^^
capax, honestly, if you can't figure out how not to say things as classless, dumb, and ill-timed as this, clam up instead of trying to fork in some reactionary gun debate.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Absent gods help us, 80 confirmed dead in the shooting. How does one gunman kill 80 people?
One report stated the weapon was "like an M-16". Assuming it was only one weapon, even with an extended magazine that would mean several reloads.
And reports state that the gunman would walk over to people he'd shot, kick them in the head to see if they were alive, and then fire at close range if they were. That's disturbingly methodical.
I haven't seen any reports of what actually happened to the gunman.
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The children were at a youth camp on an island. A small island. They could not escape. They were like fish in a barrel. And the lunatic was said to be dressed as a policeman, someone kids would normally turn to for help.
Just when you think human perversity can get no worse, something like this happens. Humanity does need a Saviour, and a Final Judgment to make the whole world right and eradicate evil forever.
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quote:Just when you think human perversity can get no worse, something like this happens. Humanity does need a Saviour, and a Final Judgment to make the whole world right and eradicate evil forever.
It would be great if this kind of thing were something new-this sort of tragedy I mean. But it's not. We've been having these kinds of signs since a guy picked up a rock.
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Most recent reports say the police took 1.5 hrs to get to the island once shooting began. What a terrible long time to be hiding, swimming, or running while hoping to live.
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Because the level of anti-Muslim sentiment throughout much of Europe just isn't sufficient, I guess. I wonder how long (if it hasn't happened already) it will be before someone wonders whether or not he was actually some sort of progressive/leftist/liberal/atheist double-agent, because of course this attack will be spectacularly unsuccessful at raising anti-Muslim sentiment.
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This guy had significant knowledge of weapons, tactics and explosives. He claims he was working alone, but he must have interacted with a number of people in order to have the training and planning in place to carry this out. At the very least, he must have given some people an indication of his opinions and that he was planning something.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Well, it doesn't necessarily help that the news in the US (I was watching ABC at my parents house where I'm visiting), referred to it as "terror attacks." That's strongly evokative of Islamic militant terrorist attacks.
Is it really a terror attack when the person doing the attacking is not advancing the agenda of an actual terror group? That seems rather an important distinction.
Perhaps "wantonly violent attack" is a little more appropriate. Why is it automatically terrorism? I don't know the politics of the attacker. That is an important detail to note. I'm just pointing out- "terror" is not the only type of attack that can possibly be committed.
The person in question did his actions because he wanted to terrorize and cause fear in order to push a right-wing political agenda. He even released a long manifesto to explain his ideology.
Definitely sounds like terrorism to me.
Unfortunately the anti-Islam fear-mongering in Europe is so bad these days that most people actually think Islamic terror is a real threat, and that it makes up the most terrorist attacks in Europe. Both claims are completely false.
Islamic terrorism makes up roughly 0.5% of European terrorism. Most terrorism in here is done by separatist Corsican, Baski and Northern Ireland groups. After that it's the extreme left wingers and extreme right winters.
Not that anyone would know that, thought. Papers don't really report about any other terrorist threats besides Islamic ones. It sells better, I guess.
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you know, all this easy-to-stir islamophobia ironically means our attitudes and actions are remarkably easy for islamic extremists to control, and it is exactly that which empowered Al-Qaeda's strategy against the united states to, effectively, be successful.
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Hmmm, the guy's manifesto is kinda interesting. Excluding the stuff on (anti)multiculturalism, pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian stuff that the news will probably cover, there is some stuff that ranges from the chillingly mundane ...
quote:I am currently watching Dexter, the series about that forensic mass murderer. Quite hilarious. Im also looking forward to watch the new movie-series about Carlos the Jackal(the Marxist-Islamist and Che wannabe scumbag). Hopefully, it will be as good as the Baader Meinhof Complex. I really enjoyed that one. Oh, and Im also playing Fallout 3 New Vegas atm after just finishing Bioshock 2. Im also going to try the new World of Warcraft - Cataclysm when it is released in December. Time to dust of my mage
... to Dawkins ...
quote:Twice divorced, Richard spends his days popularizing the idea that everything, absolutely everything (including his marriage failures) can be explained through purely materialistic means. Raised in the Church of England, he decided that the theory of evolution better explained the universe than his religious understanding. So, in 1976, Mr. Dawkins wrote a book called, The Selfish Gene, to show that we are only selfish creatures at best, and the only reason why we survive so well is because we are actually good at being selfish. Our selfishness is part of our genetic make-up, and it drives almost everything we do.
... to epic levels of cliche
quote:Secondly, I dont hate Muslims at all. I acknowledge that there are magnificent Muslim individuals in Europe. In fact, I have had several Muslim friends over the years, some of which I still respect. This does not mean however that I will accept an Islamic presence in Europe. Muslim individuals who do not assimilate 100% within 2020 will be deportedas soon as we manage to seize power.
quote:First coming costume party this autumn, dress up as a police officer. Arrive with insignias:-) Will be awesome as people will be very astonished:-)Side note; imagine if law enforcement would visit me the next days. They would probably get the wrong idea and think I was a terrorist, lol )
quote:I have now sent an application for a Ruger Mini 14 semi-automatic rifle (5.56). It is themost army like rifle allowed in Norway, although it is considered a poor mans AR-15. I envy our European American brothers as the gun laws in Europe sucks ass in comparison. However, the EUSSR borders to Turkey and the Middle East so acquiring illegal arms isnt exactly rocket science providing you are motivated enough. In any case; I would rather have preferred a Ruger Mini 30, but I already own a 7.62 bolt rifle and it is likely that the police wouldnt grant me a similar caliber. On the application form I stated: hunting deer.It would have been tempting to just write the truth; executing category A and B culturalMarxists/multiculturalist traitors just to see their reaction
quote: I have had several Muslim friends over the years, some of which I still respect.
Why do people always have to say this? It's like 'I'm not no racialist, but...' as far as defenses go. Yes, you are. Accept it.
And don't, please, kill anyone.
ETA: In other news, it appears that Glen Beck is staying classy on this issue. He apparently believes that the teenage victims were members of something like the Hitler youth.
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: [QUOTE] Islamic terrorism makes up roughly 0.5% of European terrorism. Most terrorism in here is done by separatist Corsican, Baski and Northern Ireland groups. After that it's the extreme left wingers and extreme right winters.
I live in Europe as well. But Czech republic is not historically concerned much with terror attacks. Which makes total sense- there are very few islamist terrorists in Europe, and the Czechs have no other minority groups with serious grievances, except Roma, who are not traditionally in the killing people business.
I wasn't saying he *couldn't* be a terrorist, mind you, only that he might not be one. Clearly he is though.
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quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: ETA: In other news, it appears that Glen Beck is staying classy on this issue. He apparently believes that the teenage victims were members of something like the Hitler youth.
That sure makes me feel bad for calling him an insane idiot who preys on dumb insane conservatives. Of course! Let's compare the dead teenagers to hitler youth. What a perfect comparison. And appropriate to the tragedy, too.
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quote: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."
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I'm sorry, I just can't process the words "Glenn Beck" and "staying classy" in the same sentence.
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There's a reason people find Glenn Beck loathsome as well as deeply stupid: it's because he is.
There's also a reason why people find serious ethical and moral problems with the Tea Party: it's because lots of their rock stars are like that.Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Self-explanatory. The least surprised I have ever been was when I was told that this guy read and propagated the Atlas Shrugs blog. A hateful islamaphobe reads Pam Geller? What a twist.
Numbers 4 through 100 are the non-political things, not really poking at one side or another, but just being horrified by the whole event and, you know, stuff like that. They captured pictures of the guy shooting cornered children on the island. Every so often, this event brings out.
To quote someone else, the advantage conferred by this event is a bit of a change in priorities. Maybe some of his islamophobia can get coaxed away to die with him.
quote:I think its starting to change. EuroPol recently released a report on the mismatch of intelligence attention vs actual threat, noting that in europe less than half of a percent of terrorism is from muslims, yet the vast majority of resources are spent harassing muslims. Many federal agencies are also starting to look at re-establishing long abandoned "Right wing extremism desks" at their intelligence analysis facilities and the more academic anti-racism groups, SLPC, Searchlight, FDB,Expo, are getting a little more respect from police + intelligence agencies as go to points for expert advice on the right.
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: ETA: In other news, it appears that Glen Beck is staying classy on this issue. He apparently believes that the teenage victims were members of something like the Hitler youth.
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Nighthawk - er, I guess sarcasm doesn't translate over the internets. Take another look at the second sentence you quote above. We're talking about the same thing. Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: Nighthawk - er, I guess sarcasm doesn't translate over the internets. Take another look at the second sentence you quote above. We're talking about the same thing.
Mphrgle... Yeah, been that kind of day.
Well in one way or another we're all wrong anyway, so there. Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I watched the video in the link twice and no where in it does Beck say the shooter, much less his actions, were 'right.' The sound bite used is in reference to Wilder's comments about multiculturalism. Yes, the Norway shooter is against multiculturalism as well, but why not just say that?
There's plenty to go after Beck about, I don't know why anyone would need to make something up.
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The clip doesn't say what Beck was saying the shooter was right about, just that he (Beck) said the shooter was right...about something.
He did, in fact, say that. The shooter also thinks (among a bunch of other stuff) that multiculturalism and feminism and all kinds of other liberal stuff is killing and would eventually kill Europe. I'm not sure why you reject that association of Beck with him, if it's not because it's accurate in a small way and that's pretty uncomfortable.
Is there some point at which you'll contribute meaningfully to this topic, or will your points be knee-jerk defense-of-far-right as a rule?
From a ridiculous point that this attack invalidates the points or view of gun control advocates, to defending Beck who agreed the this guy's vision of the world re: multiculturalism and Europe was right (to say nothing of likening the kids to the HITLER YOUTH), you're a hack. Still. Hasn't changed.
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You know, you said this on Ornery, too -- but I don't understand where you're getting your data. What makes you think that non-Islamic terror is a tiny, marginal percentage of terror attacks worldwide?
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Let's just cut straight to the chase, sock. The large majority of terrorism in Europe isn't Islamic. The stats are widely known and well circulated. You can find 'em in less than 15s on Google.
You gonna acknowledge that?
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Blah, blah, blah, you're a hack.
It took you a lot of words to say what you really wanted to say. You're the epitome of predictable...
I bet it's difficult to come up with a response quickly without sounding totally dismissive. We've seen quite a few of your pre-baked responses. You act incredibly thin-skinned just to have the occasion to argue with someone. Oddly, you're never insulted by comments from your cronies, just people that have a history of pissing you off with their differing world views.
Your comment didn't really address what I said. I'll expound: The blog post's title is misleading and the video is a sloppy cut-and-paste misrepresentation. It's a 'three degrees from Kevin Bacon' approach to making Beck appear to support mass-murder. Beck shares the shooter's assessment of multiculturalism. That doesn't mean he shares "this guy's vision of the world" because Beck isn't out bombing buildings and slaughtering kids. This is clear to see. When you gonna acknowledge that? Honestly, Beck equated the youth at the labor party camp to the Hitler Youth. I can understand outrage at that comment..
But we can call that one a foul ball and let you step up to the plate again. And hey, don't feel obligated to draft a lengthy response, just tell us how you really feel.
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My 'cronies'? Who are they, exactly? I suspect you'd likely throw Orincoro and Samprimary in that mix, since I know they have fun pointing out how dishonest your politics are too. But I've said variations on, "Geeze, man, don't say that!" to them before too.
I act this way with you because you've got a history of saying nonsense and crowing about how dumb gun control is, using a bunch of dead kids to do it.
Anyway, I did actually address what you said, quite specifically in fact. Right there, black and white. I acknowledged that Beck didn't support mass murder, and specifically stated that the only thing Beck was agreeing with was a world view about European multiculturalism.
All of that is factual, capax. Now you can get huffy about that all you like. What you can't honestly claim is that Beck, at that time (I wouldn't be surprised at some backpedaling), disagreed with the shooter about multiculturalism's impact on Europe. The shooter thought it was killing Europe. The commentator said something, well, *quite similar*. Beck agreed with the commentator.
If a=b and b=c, then a=c. Pretty straightforward. To people who aren't dishonest political hacks, that is.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You know, you said this on Ornery, too -- but I don't understand where you're getting your data. What makes you think that non-Islamic terror is a tiny, marginal percentage of terror attacks worldwide?
I'm not sure where capax is getting his data. But a good place for people interested in raw data is the Global Terrorism Database. I used it for a project in a Political Science class last semester.
There's a lot of issues with how to code this sort of stuff. For instance, is a separatist movement attacking a military barracks terrorism or insurgency or civil war or some degree of all three. There's no real academic consensus on definitions, but I think GTD does a good job of trying to be open about inclusion criteria, and their own definitions.
Looking just at Europe, of named terror groups, Islamic terrorists accounted for about 10% of terror incidents since 1994. They also accounted for about 20% of deaths from terror incidents. In both cases, the proportions are increasing slightly over time (Islamic terror is becoming more frequent and more deadly, relative to other forms of terrorism).
The greatest number of terror incidents in Europe come from separatist groups or reactionary nationalist groups, with a relatively small number (comparable to or smaller than those from islamic terror) coming from other ideological groups (communists, fascists, animal rights activists, etc.). Islamic terror appears to be particularly deadly, with the number killed/incident larger than any other class of groups.
I haven't done the analysis worldwide; maybe if I have time after lunch I'll look at the statistics for that, although I've had to hand-code whether each named terrorist group is Islamist or not, which might be daunting for a world-wide analysis.
*Note: I've excluded Russia and former Soviet states from the analysis. Including Russia (and hence, Chechneya) may impact the results for Europe.
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Another point to consider when talking about what is terrorism and what is not, is the gray area of crazy lone gunmen. Looking back at the Jared Lee Loughner case, I think most people wouldn't consider what he did to be an act of terrorism in the same way that the 9/11 attacks were terrorism. This is due, to some degree, to Loughner's apparent insanity, his lack of ties to established groups that engage in terror attacks, and his personalistic motives for attack.
Again, there's not a clear consensus (either in the media, the legal system, or academia) about where insane lone gunmen leave off and terrorists start. Breivik's case is still to some degree unclear; his manifesto has been described as rambling and incoherent, but it also includes a lot of non-personalistic, ideological analysis.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Excluding Russia because you are considering it to be Asia?
To some degree. Because the database didn't break out attacks in Russia by those occurring in European Russia vs those in Asian Russia I felt like it would be better to exclude it. In some cases the localities are included, and if I really wanted to I could go through and include those that occurred in what I'd consider "European" Russia, but it was too much effort.
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