posted
Due to vandalism and a case of two students having sex last year (bathroom floor, yuck!), my school's principal has decided to start locking all of the student restrooms. We must call the office when a student needs to use the restroom, and they are escorted by administration or security.
In theory, I have no problem with it. As long as the students are allowed to use it.
In practice, it has gone bad. We have 1,100 students. We only have 3 administrators and 2 security. None of which are female. There has been more then a few cases where no one has even come to my room to take them.
The nurse told me she has had 3 students wet themselves so far.
We have come up with two solutions, only to be ignored by the principal. Teachers have volunteered to give up 10 minutes of planning and take turns with keys to the restrooms. It has also been recommended to open them during scheduled times during the day under close supervision.
The union told me it frankly doesn't concern them.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Wouldn't it be simpler to provide a private space where people could have sex? For that matter, you'd think the embarrassment of getting caught (and on a bathroom floor at that; yuck) would be a good encouragement to the others to exercise more creativity in finding privacy.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Wouldn't it be simpler to provide a private space where people could have sex? For that matter, you'd think the embarrassment of getting caught (and on a bathroom floor at that; yuck) would be a good encouragement to the others to exercise more creativity in finding privacy.
My idea of a bucket of condoms next to the bathroom pass went ignored.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: What kind of area surrounds the school? (Just curiosity, this and the last)
Mixed income levels. We are just outside the Washington, DC beltway. About 45% of our students qualify for free or reduced lunch. We have a few children living in mansions, and a few living on the streets.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Many states have laws against this kind of behavior. Every time it's been pressed in a court of law, the school is either overturned or abuse charges are filed:
posted
Perhaps you could send them to a janitors closet or that little nook underneath the stairs (if you have stairs) or some other out of the way place.
Eventually the smell will tip someone off...
Posts: 692 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I wasn't really suggesting a plan of action, more wondering what the consequences would be like. Is this at least a suburban area? I suspect the principal might get an earful if students start taking a dump and/or piss on random people's lawns near the school as a substitute for example.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
It's an interesting dilemma. yes, it makes sense that there should exist a right to go to the bathroom when needed, but in all honesty there are planty of real world situations where one is not allowed to use the restroom anytime you want to.
Take teachers for example - we cannot legally leave our classrooms unattended, even during class changes we have assignments. I can go to the restroom at 7:30 before school begins, during my planning period, and after school at 3:00. That's it - every other time I have some assigned duty that keeps me in my classroom or out in the hall. Students have much more access to bathrooms than the teachers do!
I can't let every student out of the room to use the restroom so I have a strict policy of only one person out of the room at a time, so you may have to wait until someone gets back. I also do not allow you out of the room during testing.
But, I'm pretty lenient on letting them go to the bathroom if the above conditions are met because I teach a block class that is more than 90 minutes long. It makes sense some students are going to need to use the restroom during a class that long.
I've never heard of bathrooms being locked - that seems crazy. I cannot believe you have so few administrators for a school that large, too. They need to work something else out - it sounds like your current situation is unworkable.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
My last class of the day is the worst off. They have a 30 minutes lunch at 10:22. Odds are I am going to have a couple that need to go 4 hours later. They don't have time after school because they really limit their dismissal time to get on the bus.
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posted
Could there be a key for each room to be handed out by the teacher as needed? Students still could arrange to be in the bathroom together if they were in different classrooms but it would be much tougher to do without being noticed.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there, kmb. Is student sex in semi-public bathrooms really such a massive problem that access to those bathrooms must be controlled? It seems to me that the chance of getting caught, not to mention the yuck factor, would by themselves make this a once-a-year incident at most, which is surely tolerable; while trying to patch the key-control thing is just going to lead you into the realms of absurdity. A fundamentally broken design cannot be patched to make it sensible, and if you try, you end up with a vast shambling mound of duct tape, leaking at every seam. Or, to put it another way, when you're in a hole you should stop digging.
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posted
There has to be some law against this. The principle saying the bathrooms will be unlocked is one thing, but the first time a child wets him or herself it should be overturned. If I were a parent of one of the children I'd be furious.
Punish the kids that were having sex in the bathroom, not everyone else.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Take teachers for example - we cannot legally leave our classrooms unattended, even during class changes we have assignments. I can go to the restroom at 7:30 before school begins, during my planning period, and after school at 3:00. That's it - every other time I have some assigned duty that keeps me in my classroom or out in the hall.
Wow, that seems like rather inhumane working conditions. The human body doesn't always adhere to schedules. What are you supposed to do when you have an unexpected urgent need to go and its hours until your next break?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
In those cases Rabbit you ask the teacher across the hall to watch your class for you, but since she can't leave her class unattended either, that means she has to stop what she is doing and stand in the hallway between the two classes and try to keep an eye on both until you get back. As you can imagine, it's very disruptive and so it's rarely done.
Teachers joke about developing a "teacher's bladder" because you have to be very good at holding it.
It was a big adjustment from my previous work experience, where I could go to the bathroom whenever I wanted, and if I wanted coffee or a soda I could get it, to now where my movements are seriously limited.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
This rule wouldn't phase me, I'd pee on the side of the building. I wouldn't have a solution for #2 though.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there, kmb. Is student sex in semi-public bathrooms really such a massive problem that access to those bathrooms must be controlled? It seems to me that the chance of getting caught, not to mention the yuck factor, would by themselves make this a once-a-year incident at most, which is surely tolerable; while trying to patch the key-control thing is just going to lead you into the realms of absurdity. A fundamentally broken design cannot be patched to make it sensible, and if you try, you end up with a vast shambling mound of duct tape, leaking at every seam. Or, to put it another way, when you're in a hole you should stop digging.
I doubt that the attitude of "tolerating" 11, 12, and 13 year olds having sex in school would be an easy sell. Patching up broken designs is a big part of civilization. Rarely do we have the luxury of scrapping it and starting from scratch.
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posted
It is worth noting just how much of an issue this is though. If this is to be believed http://www.sadd.org/stats.htm#sexualactivity , students having underage sex before 13 covers 6.2% of that group and if the rate of student sex in washrooms is once per year in a school of 1100 over three years, that means that at maximum only about 4.3% of sex incidents will occur in wash-rooms as a maximum, less if there are repeat offenders in the washrooms or if the kids in the group have sex multiple times.
So it's not exactly a big problem and one could say that it would be worth looking into what should be locked/done for the same effort instead.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I did not realise quite how young these kids were. But even so, one needn't `tolerate' them having sex in the bathrooms because they are open. Just have a teacher of the correct gender pop a head in once in a while. Surely it cannot be more difficult to combat sex in bathrooms than to combat smoking in bathrooms, for which schools have had policies since the dawn of time. A quick sniff of inspection, "Mary, is that you smoking in there? Come out right now or there will be trouble!", and hang the offender at dawn next day before the assembled school. "Her classmates are in hollow square / you can hear the Dead March play / they're hanging Susie Smoker / they're hanging her today..."
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Stephan did not say that the bathrooms were locked because of one incident of students having sex in the bathroom, he said they were locked because of "Vandalism and a case of two students having sex." I strongly suspect that "vandalism" was the real motivating factor with sex thing perhaps the straw that broke the camels back.
Still, locking the bathrooms does not appear to be a workable solution. Its probably not legal as there are laws governing bathrooms availability in public buildings (I assume this is a public school). They need to find another alternative.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
A good point. But still, locking a bathroom so it can't be used at all strikes me as a rather extreme solution to vandalism. Again, isn't this just the ordinary problem of policing a thousand rambunctious kids? To shut down important parts of the school because the kids can't be kept under control is a perfect example of cutting the nose to spite the face. Have people patrolling the hallways, poking their heads into bathrooms, whatever.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I wasn't really suggesting a plan of action, more wondering what the consequences would be like. Is this at least a suburban area? I suspect the principal might get an earful if students start taking a dump and/or piss on random people's lawns near the school as a substitute for example.
Though gross, probably the best solution. If enough students start having "accidents" as a protest, the stupid admin will have to change their minds.
I also feel really bad for any of the young girls who have periods and are new at it...
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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The humiliation of wetting yourself (or worse) at school is a harm, IMO, comparable to getting beaten with a paddle in front of the class.
Meaningful concentration on learning is nearly impossible when you're focusing every available neuron on keeping a sphincter clamped.
Kids will dehydrate themselves so they don't have to call attention to their biological needs or risk embarrassing accidents.
quote:It has also been recommended to open them during scheduled times during the day under close supervision.
I can't believe this rule isn't already in place. That kind of thing seems like the absolute minimum to make this policy not insane.
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I wasn't really suggesting a plan of action, more wondering what the consequences would be like. Is this at least a suburban area? I suspect the principal might get an earful if students start taking a dump and/or piss on random people's lawns near the school as a substitute for example.
Though gross, probably the best solution. If enough students start having "accidents" as a protest, the stupid admin will have to change their minds.
I also feel really bad for any of the young girls who have periods and are new at it...
The kids can't/shouldn't be roped into any particularly messy sort of protest, but if I was a parent or a teacher I'd be pretty tempted to stage some kind of piss-in.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Exactly how bad was the vandalism? It's a bit ridiculous to expect kids not to draw on bathroom stalls or mirrors. Pretty much every public restroom I've ever set foot in has been vandalized one way or another. And as for the sex, there were kids in my high school doing it in the library. There isn't much you can do to stop that sort of behavior other than checking up on the bathrooms every once in awhile and punishing kids who break the rules.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I teach in a high school of over 2000 students and 4 administrators. So...
There's not really any acceptable solution to that problem that I can think of. You can't deny people access to washroom facilities. You simply can't.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I'm with Sam on this. Are the parents aware of this? Have they been notified? If I were a parent, I'd be on the phone with the school board the moment I heard the school was doing this. My next call would be to an attorney.
They would take that case in a heartbeat.
The principal should hire a hall monitor. It is cheaper than a lawsuit.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I remember a (somewhat) similar situation at my high school. I forget what year it was, perhaps my sophomore or junior year. At any rate, the custodians were finding puddles of piss in the restrooms. The men's restrooms, to be specific. I guess there was no doubt in the administration's mind that men were responsible, judging by their reaction. The volume of pee and location of the puddles left no doubt that it was deliberate, either.
The principal called the men (the ladies weren't invited), by class, into the gym, and explained the situation. If it happened again, restroom facilities would be supervised between classes. The restrooms would be locked and only available to supervised use.
They proposed other, less attractive alternatives to this solution, too. Fortunately, it worked. As far as I know, the problem stopped there. There was no doubt in my mind the principal would have carried through with the promise. I watched that man take toys from my sister when she misbehaved. The old man definitely had some interesting solutions to problems up his sleeves. Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
reminds me of that episode of scrubs.
"These pictures of me are making my uncomfortable." "I'm so sorry, I didn't know you felt that way here's what I'm going to do, I'm going to leave them up." "I could live with that... Or I could sue you" -- The hospital lawyer halts midstep and turns around. *Laughs* "Dr Turk. You are an employee here, I can advertise however I wish, I could use your image, your name I can manufacture tiny little Dr Turk action figures, They will cost 12.95 and when you pull the string it will say "I dont like these posters!"" "Thats certainly true sir but you would be vulnerable from a legal standpoint..." "How vulnerable?" "Sir that lawsuit would be over so quickly that I would advise you bring cabfair to the courthouse as he would be driving your beamer home to his place."
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I wasn't really suggesting a plan of action, more wondering what the consequences would be like. Is this at least a suburban area? I suspect the principal might get an earful if students start taking a dump and/or piss on random people's lawns near the school as a substitute for example.
Though gross, probably the best solution. If enough students start having "accidents" as a protest, the stupid admin will have to change their minds.
I have to wonder if it's already happening without prompting. In the OP it says students have wet themselves. Depending on geography, its possible that a student might just hold it long enough to get to lunch (for example) and then dash out of sight to relieve themselves.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
To satisfy my curiosity, what kind of scheduling does the middle school have?
When I was in public school, I had many teachers who did not allow bathroom breaks except in extreme circumstances (such as illness.) Our classes were 45 minutes long so it wasn't a big deal to expect a student to hold it. And I am talking about middle school age students and older. The time we had between classes was for taking care of personal things such as bathroom breaks or saying hi to our friends in the hall.
Of course, this is more of an issue if the school is on block scheduling with 2-hour long class periods. Hence why I was asking. I've heard of middle schools where students don't change classrooms throughout the day but its not anything I've experienced. Maybe its a regional thing.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
In high school we had 90 minute blocks with three minutes between classes to get to our lockers, handle any bathroom issues, and get to the next class. Scheduling was pretty important. Though, other than a quick sip of water between classes, you couldn't drink anything anyway. Lunch was the only time we could have food or drinks.
You know, in hindsight I'm surprised there wasn't something wrong with us.
Middle school was shorter classes and more time between them. But again, no food or drinks except at lunch.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:In practice, it has gone bad. We have 1,100 students. We only have 3 administrators and 2 security. None of which are female. There has been more then a few cases where no one has even come to my room to take them.
You aren't by any chance teaching math are you?
Give the administrators a little math quiz. Assume that each kid will use the school bathroom on average once during the 7 hour school day and that it will take an adult an average of 5 minutes to escort a student to and from the restroom. How many full time positions will be required to meet the demand for bathroom escorts?
Correct Answer: 13
They have 5 people doing this job all of whom have significant responsibilities other than escorting kids to the bathroom. They can not possibly meet the demand.
Add in a simple cost benefit analysis question. If they were to hire people at minimum wage to do the job, (13 people, 7 hours a day, at $7.25/hour + payroll taxes), it would cost $3595.64 per week. How much did it cost the school to repair bathroom damage caused by vandals?
Add in a legal question. What happens when the first parent brings a lawsuit because their child was publicly humiliated when they wet themselves? If the student happens to be a girl , perhaps a girl starting menses (as will be very common in middle school), there could even be criminal sexual harassment charges.
Realistically, your best bet is to contact the PTA president and discuss the problem. See if there is a parent in the school who is a lawyer and get them to write a letter to the principal on their official stationary warning of the potential legal ramifications of their policy. I'd be willing to be the bathrooms will be unlocked the next day.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I use the restroom probably 6 or 7 times on average during a typically work day. If I had to call someone to escort me there every time, I would probably bring a bottle for peeing. This would be completely unacceptable for me as a student.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
One bathroom in the school should remain open for students to go to - ideally the one in the location that is easiest to monitor. A member of security should be situated in a way that he/she can monitor it. Frankly, I suspect this would save time from having to contact someone to open a bathroom every single time a student needs to go.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Good lord. What about Type-1 diabetics? A spike in blood sugar usually results in an immediate need for the bathroom. In fact, I'm surprised the parents of a diabetic child haven't already sued, citing discrimination.
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