Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » I believe that infringing on someone's right to vote is treason. (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: I believe that infringing on someone's right to vote is treason.
Darth_Mauve
Member
Member # 4709

 - posted      Profile for Darth_Mauve   Email Darth_Mauve         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And I think that any public figure that argues for tactics that will stop opponents from reaching their polling places, that limits the ability of others to vote, or that attempts to discount or destroy the votes of others should be arrested and charged with treason.

Why?

Because a Democracy only works when we decide by the will of the people to a common course of action.

To manipulate people into not voting you are not removing their desire for or against that course of action, just their voice so that their opinion can not be heard. If you are elected, not because you have proven yourself worthy to the majority of the people who would elect you, but because you've forced some of the majority who would not elect you to remain silent then you have not really won. You are then not a product of the Democracy you claim to represent, but you are the enemy of it.

You or those who have polluted the election stream in your name, have voided the true democratic basis defined in our constitution, and hence have committed treason against that constitution and the government which for it stands.

Posts: 1856 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/phony-virgnia-flier-culpr_n_140739.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/paid-gop-workers-say-they_n_140743.html

http://obamastrikeforce.com/2008/11/voter-intimidation-in-north-county/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/02/over-80000-have-complaine_n_140213.html

That's what is up on Digg right now. I'm sure there's examples of Democratic voter infringement techniques somewhere out there but I guess they're harder to come by.

Posts: 14055 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Farmgirl
Member
Member # 5567

 - posted      Profile for Farmgirl   Email Farmgirl         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
I'm sure there's examples of Democratic voter infringement techniques somewhere out there but I guess they're harder to come by.

You can usually find links to those (Democratic) on Drudge Report
Posts: 9523 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Speaking of constitutions, the following might be familiar: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

The reason for this quite restricted definition was that accusations of, and convictions for, treason had been thrown about quite a bit as political tools in England, and the founders didn't want any part of that. It's a point of view you might want to consider.

Posts: 10589 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Morbo
Member
Member # 5309

 - posted      Profile for Morbo   Email Morbo         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Amen, King of Men. As you said, the founders had very good reasons to curtail the bounds of treason. And there has been quite enough bogus charges of treason in the past 8 years.

It's still very wrong and should be stopped. Vote-caging and various other sleazy tactics have been practiced for years by Republicans, and it disgusts me.

Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*sigh* I don't understand why it's always necessary to point the finger at one party. I think it's much more accurate to say that sleazy tactics have been practiced for years by politicians.
Posts: 6326 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Morbo
Member
Member # 5309

 - posted      Profile for Morbo   Email Morbo         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dems have their own sleazy tactics, but vote-caging and other similar vote supression tactics are almost always done by Republicans.

For example:
quote:
On October 5, 2008 the Republican Lt. Governor of Montana, John Bohlinger, accused the Montana Republican Party of vote caging to purge 6,000 voters from three counties which trend Democratic. These purges included decorated war veterans and active duty soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_caging

There are many other examples from the past decade.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Like these in Florida? (Florida does it again.)

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/florida-gop-takes-voter-supression-to-a-brazen-new-extreme-20120530

quote:
Imagine this: a Republican governor in a crucial battleground state instructs his secretary of state to purge the voting rolls of hundreds of thousands of allegedly ineligible voters. The move disenfranchises thousands of legally registered voters, who happen to be overwhelmingly black and Hispanic Democrats. The number of voters prevented from casting a ballot exceeds the margin of victory in the razor-thin election, which ends up determining the next President of the United States.

If this scenario sounds familiar, that’s because it happened in Florida in 2000. And twelve years later, just months before another presidential election, history is repeating itself.



Posts: 10608 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, Florida tries to do it again. See updates at the end of the article.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am not counting them out till after the election. There is no evidence of significant voter fraud. There is an awful lot of voter suppression. Honestly, between this and hobbling the unions in swing states the odds are stacking against anything like liberals.
Posts: 10608 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
*sigh* I don't understand why it's always necessary to point the finger at one party. I think it's much more accurate to say that sleazy tactics have been practiced for years by politicians.

While I'd be unsurprised to see Democratic leaders pursue similar tactics if they would be effective, the demographics of the groups mostly easily and effectively targeted by voter suppression ensures that it only makes sense for Republicans to attempt it so this tactic, with rare exception, is a sleaziness that is exclusive to Republicans.
Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And Conservatives apparently
Posts: 7452 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capaxinfiniti
Member
Member # 12181

 - posted      Profile for capaxinfiniti           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/phony-virgnia-flier-culpr_n_140739.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/03/paid-gop-workers-say-they_n_140743.html

http://obamastrikeforce.com/2008/11/voter-intimidation-in-north-county/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/02/over-80000-have-complaine_n_140213.html

That's what is up on Digg right now. I'm sure there's examples of Democratic voter infringement techniques somewhere out there but I guess they're harder to come by.

The first case was a joke gone out of control. It doesn't indicate how widespread it was, its effect, or who perpetrated it (they aren't even being tired, which leads me to believe that it wasn't hardly a case worth mentioning except to rile liberals and "make news".)

The second case has nothing to do with voter suppression. The paid workers lied about being volunteers. It's fraudulent, sure, but no one's vote is being infringed upon.

Third case.. The link doesn't exists. Even google shows nothing.

Fourth case. Two of the instances could be considered spreading disinformation but to claim the remainder are cases of voter infringement isn't remotely accurate, let alone attributing them solely to the Republican party. It looks mostly like a problem of obtuse voting laws and incompetency of the system, include the people running it. Not every issue that comes up at a voting location has a political bent.

I'm sure there are better examples out there but those you listed were beyond weak.

Posts: 536 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Morbo:
Amen, King of Men. As you said, the founders had very good reasons to curtail the bounds of treason. And there has been quite enough bogus charges of treason in the past 8 years.

It's still very wrong and should be stopped. Vote-caging and various other sleazy tactics have been practiced for years by Republicans, and it disgusts me.

I agree. It isn't treason, it's a vile practice, but not treason.
Posts: 9551 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
The first case was a joke gone out of control. It doesn't indicate how widespread it was, its effect, or who perpetrated it (they aren't even being tired, which leads me to believe that it wasn't hardly a case worth mentioning except to rile liberals and "make news".)

Is this "the gullible take" on story number one?

Anyway, those four examples are exactly what I said they were; four examples that were on digg at the moment that I posted them for the thread. Literally in 2008. I don't know exactly what kind of example you expect them to be in a response years later, but I don't really care that you find them weak?

Posts: 14055 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I suspect he didn't notice that the thread is 4 years old.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
aspectre
Member
Member # 2222

 - posted      Profile for aspectre           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Apparently someone else believes that there is only fitting punishment for such traitorous scum.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I resurrected this thread purposely to show that it is not a new, flash-in-the-pan problem.
Posts: 10608 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While I have generally not commented on it, the issue of our e-voting machines is just ridiculous. Stupid, but scary. You can't help but laugh. The weakness of certain machines (diebold, etc) is so .. profound, so unambiguously insecure and incompetently designed, that it really does lend credence to the theory that this is by design for the hijacking of elections via swing state manipulations. Not that we'll do anything about it, or anything.
Posts: 14055 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
PSI Teleport
Member
Member # 5545

 - posted      Profile for PSI Teleport   Email PSI Teleport         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
*sigh* I don't understand why it's always necessary to point the finger at one party. I think it's much more accurate to say that sleazy tactics have been practiced for years by politicians.

While I'd be unsurprised to see Democratic leaders pursue similar tactics if they would be effective, the demographics of the groups mostly easily and effectively targeted by voter suppression ensures that it only makes sense for Republicans to attempt it so this tactic, with rare exception, is a sleaziness that is exclusive to Republicans.
I made that comment four years ago, and I still stand behind it. Election years are full of "dems always do this" and "repubs always do that" and all this accomplishes is to make me think that the majority of American voters are voluntarily blind (and partially moronic.)

<-- 90% conservative and 0% Republican

Posts: 6326 | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So... we don't complain about what their guys are doing as long as our guys are doing something bad too? Seems like we should be complaining about all the bad stuff and, people being people, we'll tend to complain loudest about the other guy.
Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ginol_Enam
Member
Member # 7070

 - posted      Profile for Ginol_Enam           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think what he's saying, and I would agree, is that rather than saying "dems suck because" and "pubs suck because" it should be "politicians suck because".
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
SenojRetep
Member
Member # 8614

 - posted      Profile for SenojRetep   Email SenojRetep         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ginol_Enam:
I think what he's saying, and I would agree, is that rather than saying "dems suck because" and "pubs suck because" it should be "politicians suck because".

Except Matt's right to say that there's a fundamental asymmetry on the issue in America today, and I say this as a (somewhat) proud Republican. Currently, the terrain is such that voter suppression efforts work better against low information Democratic voters than similar Republican voters (New Black Panthers notwithstanding).

I'm not sure if this is necessarily the case (i.e. I don't see why low information Republican voters would necessarily be less susceptible to voter suppression), but from what I can tell it's true. Republicans uniformly support legislation and rules that make voting more difficult and Democrats uniformly oppose same. To me, it's an odd and somewhat inexplicable dynamic, but it does seem to exist.

Posts: 2831 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ginol_Enam:
I think what he's saying

She.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"your side does it too" or "there's no point in pointing fingers at either side" are completely useless narrative distractions from when one side is greatly more guilty of whatever is being talked about. Quite beloved by the institutions of propagating the whatever it is, too.
Posts: 14055 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think people that are uninformed should be encouraged to refrain from voting. Don't know about the gubernatorial candidates stances are? Don't just vote for the handsome guy . . .leave it freaking blank!
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
but there is a d next to this name so
Posts: 14055 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
I think people that are uninformed should be encouraged to refrain from voting. Don't know about the gubernatorial candidates stances are? Don't just vote for the handsome guy . . .leave it freaking blank!

Wouldn't that just give the election to whichever party had more voters with an inflated sense of their own knowledge?
Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kwea
Member
Member # 2199

 - posted      Profile for Kwea   Email Kwea         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The hard part about it is that they have a point at times. I don't want people who have no right to vote to be able to. I don't want the vote skewed, even if that helps the people I want in power to win.

The problem is that a lot of the support for theses types of measures are from normal, ordinary people who just want a fair election. You can't demonize them just because you disagree with them, it doesn't solve the problem.

All you can do is explain why there are problems with the way these things are implemented, and try to get them to understand that many people who DO have the right to vote will be blocked at the polls because of these types of voting barriers.

Posts: 14992 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't want people who have no right to vote to be able to.
Me neither, but so far there is no evidence that this is actually a problem anywhere near the scale necessary to justify measures that demonstrably disenfranchise a non-trivial number of people.

quote:
The problem is that a lot of the support for theses types of measures are from normal, ordinary people who just want a fair election. You can't demonize them just because you disagree with them, it doesn't solve the problem.
The support? Sure. The impetuous to draft legislation and seek that support in the first place - not so much.
Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
I think people that are uninformed should be encouraged to refrain from voting. Don't know about the gubernatorial candidates stances are? Don't just vote for the handsome guy . . .leave it freaking blank!

Wouldn't that just give the election to whichever party had more voters with an inflated sense of their own knowledge?
Maybe it would give the election to the party whose members have SOME level of knowledge. But I can understand if the Republicans might be threatened by this proposal.

Levity aside, keeping uninformed voters away from the poll both might turn the dialogue from idiotic soundbites to actual discussion of the issues (gasp!).

Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_   Email Stone_Wolf_         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, are you suggesting some kind of current events quiz as a prerequisite of franchise?

I'm all for limited franchise, but more of a "Starship Troopers" type where you must prove your ability to put the needs of society above your own with difficult/dangerous service.

But I'm a realist that it will never happen.

Posts: 5081 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
keeping uninformed voters away from the poll both might turn the dialogue from idiotic soundbites to actual discussion of the issues
How in the world would you make the determination that someone was knowledgable enough? The attempts at doing this in the past were not even thinly veiled attempts to disenfranchise minorities.

[ June 15, 2012, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
either disenfranchise minorities (helps conservatives) or disenfranchise the young however you can (becoming necessary for conservatives)

either way, yeah, the "requirements to vote" thing is the best way to breach upon the subject of "looks good in theory but would be horrific in real life" except in this case even "looks good in theory until you analyze it beyond a superficial level" — people would use these 'voting tests' in the same way that districting turned into gerrymandering; you would have republican think tanks and strategic groups trying to game the tests to empower their voting share within seconds. It's something they're very good at and have been doing pretty consistently in a lot of places across the country for a long, long time.

And no, no equivalence arguments here; it's a consistently majorly conservative trait in this country.

Posts: 14055 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
South Park has become one of the worst things to happen to political discourse among the young; with the whole "Golden Means" South Park fallacy turning millions of people into smug idiots who claim the moral high ground by blaming both sides equally and yet doing nothing.

Every state should use the shortest split line method to fairly divide up the districts; it's not perfect but it should help solve the problem partially without needing constitutional changes.

Otherwise Mixed-Member proportional is the only method that makes everyone's vote matters worth a damn.

But yeah, overwhelmingly voter suppression is conducted by republicans; democrats in turn don't have the same incentive to do so because the demographics and geography isn't conductive to do. This is an overwhelmingly one sided issue gerrymandering aside which would be solved by shortest split line method.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Aros
Member
Member # 4873

 - posted      Profile for Aros           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
keeping uninformed voters away from the poll both might turn the dialogue from idiotic soundbites to actual discussion of the issues
How in the world would you make the determination that someone was knowledgable enough? The attempts at doing this in the past were not even thinly veiled attempts to disenfranchise minorities.
Uhm . . . the answer was in my first post that you commented on. Instead of encouraging everyone to vote, like it's some sort of patriotic responsibility, the media should teach them to refrain from voting when they don't know what's going on or don't have an opinion on candidates. Trey Parker and Matt Stone did this in one of the previous elections (and they caught a bunch of flak for it).
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_   Email Stone_Wolf_         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm 32, and I've never voted. I try to avoid politics because it drives me insane with anger at the horrible job politicians do. I have meant to vote on the local measures, but never have. Feel kinda bad about that last part. Think I'll register and vote on the local initiatives this year...but not for -anyone-....I hate politicians. All of them. The good ones pave the road to hell, the bad ones line their pockets.

[ June 15, 2012, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

Posts: 5081 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
the media should teach them to refrain from voting when they don't know what's going on or don't have an opinion on candidates.
That's likely to backfire thanks to our old pal, the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Blayne Bradley
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aros:
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
quote:
keeping uninformed voters away from the poll both might turn the dialogue from idiotic soundbites to actual discussion of the issues
How in the world would you make the determination that someone was knowledgable enough? The attempts at doing this in the past were not even thinly veiled attempts to disenfranchise minorities.
Uhm . . . the answer was in my first post that you commented on. Instead of encouraging everyone to vote, like it's some sort of patriotic responsibility, the media should teach them to refrain from voting when they don't know what's going on or don't have an opinion on candidates. Trey Parker and Matt Stone did this in one of the previous elections (and they caught a bunch of flak for it).
Why am I not surprised?

Politics and Voting, It's very important.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Stone_Wolf_
Member
Member # 8299

 - posted      Profile for Stone_Wolf_   Email Stone_Wolf_         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Cool video Blayne.
Posts: 5081 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capaxinfiniti
Member
Member # 12181

 - posted      Profile for capaxinfiniti           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
Is this "the gullible take" on story number one?

Anyway, those four examples are exactly what I said they were; four examples that were on digg at the moment that I posted them for the thread. Literally in 2008. I don't know exactly what kind of example you expect them to be in a response years later, but I don't really care that you find them weak?

Gullible? Looks like it's you that read too much into that story.

Regardless of when they were first posted, it bears pointing out how specious the examples were. It's also telling that you made four claims of "voter infringement" and none of them were appropriately vetted. No wonder you find republicans overwhelmingly guilty of the charge; you're pinning every case of a mildly inconvinced voter on conservatives in general.

Posts: 536 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Saying Republicans are the ones that commit most voter fraud is just silly. Most of the media only reports the voter fraud if it is done by Republicans.

For example:

http://www.redstate.com/soren_dayton/2011/01/29/ny-dem-election-official-indicted-for-voter-fraud/

quote:


The 2009 primary election in Troy, NY attracted much attention for election shenanigans from Democratic officials who are associated with the Working Families Party. Well, yesterday, a grand jury issued indictments on 116 charges against a Democratic City Councilmember Michael LaPorto and Democratic Election Commissioner Edward McDonough. The Albany Times-Union and the Troy Record have been all over this.

Basically, those two Democratic officials have been indicted of forging absentee ballot applications and then actually voting those people in the Working Families Party primary. Almost everyone who was voted illegally by these officials were poor people living in housing projects.

Or numerous other examples, such as:

Over 2,800 dead people casting votes in the Al Franken race in Minnesota

or

Texas, where of 25,000 registrations submitted by Houston Votes, only 1,793 were allegedly legal. The same week the voter fraud allegations surfaced, a fire occurred at the Harris County Elections Center.

or

Mike Marshall, running a Get Out the Vote campaign to re-elect the Democrat mayor, was indicted on 65 counts of ballot fraud. This was in Indiana

or

Florida, where the Madison County Supervisor of Elections, a school board member and six others were arrested in connection with allegations of voter fraud.

Yep, its TOTALLY only Republicans that do it.

Interesting that not requiring some sort of identification is what enabled these people to commit voter fraud in the first place.

I don't really see an issue with requiring some sort of identification when you go to vote. It doesn't have to be a drivers license; a birth certificate, marriage certificate, or other legal document would be fine. I'd even be fine with a current phone, electric, or gas bill being used as a form of identification.

A lot of the argument is that requiring ID would prevent poor people from voting. I can see that being a problem for a very, very small minority of the poor. So let them use a different form of identification. To receive welfare or other government benefits people have to prove who they are. They should have SOME sort of identification available to them.

As I said. A bill of some sort or even a copy of any paperwork they receive from government assistance they receive would be fine.

Enabling everyone to vote is important. Preventing voter fraud is just as important.

Would anyone have a problem if the form of ID was something like a bill, marriage/birth certificate, or social security card?

Posts: 1871 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Would anyone have a problem if the form of ID was something like a bill, marriage/birth certificate, or social security card?
Not a few Republican politicians for one;)
Posts: 16394 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TomDavidson
Member
Member # 124

 - posted      Profile for TomDavidson   Email TomDavidson         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
A bill of some sort or even a copy of any paperwork they receive from government assistance they receive would be fine.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
Posts: 36934 | Registered: May 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
Saying Republicans are the ones that commit most voter fraud is just silly. Most of the media only reports the voter fraud if it is done by Republicans.

For example:

http://www.redstate.com/soren_dayton/2011/01/29/ny-dem-election-official-indicted-for-voter-fraud/

Do you have something beyond a handful of anecdotes that presents convincing proof that voter fraud is not more widespread among certain groups than others? Or is the handful of stories you posted actually the body of proof that convinced you that what you've said is true? And if so, how on Earth do you expect to be taken seriously? Or do you not expect that at all?
Posts: 9551 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:


Enabling everyone to vote is important. Preventing voter fraud is just as important.


See, it's stuff like this that makes your type scary. You think this makes sense. You think this follows the spirit of our constitution. You don't see how this could possibly be a cockeyed philosophy. In taking two things int account: the franchise, and defending against fraud, you actully think tha defending against fraud is *just as important* as upholding the franchise.

Do you realize that, logically, if the franchise and security are of equal importance, then the franchise could only be upheld with the assurance of security? You understand what that entails? It means that if the two were actually equally important under our laws, we would have to deny the franchise, that is, not count votes, if we reasonably suspected fraud. Of any kind. There is a very good philosophical and practical set of reasons why we do not equally balance security and freedoms. I'll try and let you figure out what that reason is.

Here, try it with different terms: "the right to walk down the street freely is important. But catching fugitives from justice is *just as important*. Or maybe: the rights of the accused are important, but locking up criminals is *just as important.* but see, actually, under our laws, this just isn't so. Personal freedoms and entitlements outweigh considerations of security, and even justice.

Posts: 9551 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
A bill of some sort or even a copy of any paperwork they receive from government assistance they receive would be fine.
You'd think so, wouldn't you?
Well, I mean, who's really going to deny the right to vote to that nice middle aged white man in a suit who forgot his ID in the office oh wait we're talking about black people...
Posts: 9551 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
capaxinfiniti
Member
Member # 12181

 - posted      Profile for capaxinfiniti           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Orincoro:

It's dickish to treat someone with such little consideration and to respond to them in a demeaning way. I know it's impossible for you to hide the disdain you have for us "scary" conservatives but when your arguments become blatantly dishonest I'm not going to give you a free pass. Your "examples" aren't even remotely the same as enabling voting/preventing voter fraud. You should show Geraine some courtesy and quit acting like you're responding to a child. Being arrogant and dismissive isn't an argument and it doesn't increase your credibility. And you should produce your own lists of honest-to-god voter fraud committed by both the left and right, as you seem to quickly dismiss those others bring up. Please don't make it as weak as Samprimary's list.

Posts: 536 | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MattP
Member
Member # 10495

 - posted      Profile for MattP   Email MattP         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh my: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8
Posts: 3261 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dan_Frank
Member
Member # 8488

 - posted      Profile for Dan_Frank   Email Dan_Frank         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Matt: What do you think he's saying in that clip?
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2