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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Paula Deen (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Paula Deen
Sa'eed
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She should have been rebuked but Food Network firing her is overkill.

[/black guy]

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Obama
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Wait, so an old lady raised in the South admits to having used the word nigger at some point in the past, and she gets fired for it?

Pure idiocy.

It's not like she admitted saying it last week or this decade or anything like that.

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Sa'eed
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You should say "the n word" instead of spelling it out. Reported.
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Rakeesh
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Because she's got a right to this job that focuses heavily on how likable she is considered by the public, yeah.

What was that about 'pure idiocy' again?

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Sa'eed
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Not sure how likable she is or not. My only experience of her is watching her guide for making peach cobbler on youtube. I messed up the peach cobbler but I found her likeable enough in that segment. Is she hated by the public or something?
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scifibum
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The food network decided they'd take more flak from keeping her than it was worth. It's not about whether she deserved to be fired. (Just as her success earlier on was not about what she deserved, either.)
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Lyrhawn
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Like or not, public personalities don't have the same free speech and what not rights that everyone else does. Their marketability is contingent on them not becoming damaged goods. Once she becomes more trouble than she's worth, they're well within their rights to fire her.

If the controversy really is that she said it sometime in her past and not recently and not publicly, then I really don't understand what the kerfuffle is. I was under the impression she said it very recently, in public, in which case I think it's fair game to fire her.

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Rakeesh
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I have to disagree with you about publicity-oriented people not having the same free speech rights as those who aren't in that business, Lyrhawn. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but there isn't anything freedom of speech has to say about keeping a gig that relies on people liking you (and by association, your employer) when they don't like you.
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Lyrhawn
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What I meant was, employers are under no legal or moral obligation to continue supporting you as a public figure when you've said something that harms their business.
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Dan_Frank
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That's not limited to public figures, though. It's not really a matter of free speech, either. If I work for Joe's Donut Shop and he hears me talking about what a terrible place it is and how crap the donuts are, he can fire me.

And if it turns out some labor law says he can't I'm gonna be especially flabbergasted and libertarian-ey.

The right to free speech should protect you from violence and forcible stifling. It shouldn't protect you from suffering any negative consequences of what you say.

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Obama
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Lyrhawn

She was asked in a deposition or trial or something if she had ever, in the past, used the word. She said yes, of course she had, and seeing as how she's an old lady from Georgia I for one would have assumed she had even if she was never asked or denied it.

Sa'eed

This is an adult forum. Nigger is not a curse word, and it was not used in the context of referring to anyone, on this board or elsewhere. If the moderator decides that we can not type the word, then he can let me know, and I can roll my eyes and snicker and just type the word black instead.

Rakeesh

The idiocy is on the part of the people who raised a ruckus and pressured the network to fire her. That was a common word in the South, used by all races until a few decades ago, (and no doubt still used by plenty of good ole boys down there.) She's almost seventy. If she used the word in her youth, that doesn't make her a bad person, and it doesn't mean she should lose her job, no matter what a bunch of oversensitive putas think.

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Kwea
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Don't let Sa'eed troll you. We pretty much ignore him, except when reporting him for multiple hate speeches.
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dkw
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She was asked these questions in a deposition because she was being sued over a hostile work environment at the restaurant she and her brother own. It wasn't about whether she'd used the word generally sometime in the past. And her responses were cringe-worthy.

Add to that the fact Food Network was already taking flak because her show glamorizes a diet that leads to obesity, heart disease, and diabetes, and that she revealed that she's developed Type II diabetes and is now the spokesperson for a diabetes drug, rather than advocating diet change.

I suspect Food Network decided that her public face right now represents the worst stereotypes of southern food and culture and they chose not to renew her show once the current season is over.

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Rakeesh
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It's not a situation of old racial slurs. Clearly you haven't read much about the story if you think so.

Dkw is right about her diabetes, too. I didn't know this, but she (Deen) had type II diabetes for three years before informing the public. That means that her dangerously unhealthy diet had led to that disease, and she continued peddling it without a word to the very real risks involved. And when she does, it's to help hawk a drug which she is also being paid for. May her endorsements dry up and she fade into obscurity.

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scifibum
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PSA: Many of the things you see on food shows are bad for you. Sorry if no one mentioned this to you before.
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Rakeesh
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Sure it is. But you would be surprised (well, probably not, really) just how many Americans have a very vague, 'it's not a real problem' notion of how dangerous obesity and morbid obesity can be-and how much some of the common styles of cuisine really contribute.

Anyway, we make booze and tobacco slap warnings on an advertisement. It's not at all strange or unreasonable for me to imagine some required up-front nutritional information, too, in places like restaurants or cooking shows. I'm a bit squeamish on the issue of government requirement, but as for popular requirements for outliers such as Deen-no problem.

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Obama
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You know, Deen doesn't look that obese to me. A little overweight, but not grossly fat. Lots of old people pack on a few pounds like that.

A high fat diet isn't really a factor in developing type 2 diabetes. Being really overweight and inactive is, and eating a diet high in carbohydrates in general and simple sugar carbs specifically. A low carb atkins-style diet is one of the healthier ones for diabetics, so long as they don't take in so much fat that they gain weight.

Getting older and genetics can also contribute to the body developing insulin resistance.

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Obama
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Not that I feel -really- sorry for her. She's got all the money she'll ever need, and can go live out the rest of her life on a beach somewhere.

If she enjoys teaching cooking that much, she can. Just probably not to as wide of an audience. (Although some sort of Youtube deal would probably work.)

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Misha McBride
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quote:
Paula Deen's actual unsanitized quote:
Well what I would really like is a bunch of little niggers to wear long-sleeve white shirts, black shorts and black bow ties, you know in the Shirley Temple days, they used to tap dance around. Now, that would be a true Southern wedding wouldn’t it? But we can’t do that because the media would be on me about that.

And here's the context just in case someone wants to argue she's being unfairly quoted.

quote:
LA Times Article:
The civil complaint, which was filed Monday in state court in Savannah, Ga., was brought by Lisa T. Jackson, a former manager at Uncle Bubba's Oyster House, one of five restaurants in Deen's group. The Savannah-based oyster house is co-owned by Deen and her brother, Earl W. “Bubba” Hiers.

Much of the 33-page complaint details what it says was boorish and racist behavior by Hiers, including accusations that he physically intimidated employees, displayed pornography at work, acted toward Jackson in a sexually degrading manner — including forcibly kissing her cheek and spitting on her — and repeatedly using racial epithets.

Deen, Hiers and a number of Deen-owned companies are named as defendants in the suit, which seeks unspecified damages for sexual harassment, infliction of emotional distress, and other charges. Jackson, 48, left the oyster house job in August 2010.

Calls to Deen's Savannah business office, seeking comment from her and Hiers, were referred to the Rose Group, a Los Angeles-based “brand relations agency.” Calls to the Rose Group were not returned Monday.

Jackson — a white woman who managed a number African American employees — claims that over the course of five years, she made “numerous and frequent” complaints of racial and sexual harassment and other abusive treatment to Deen and others in her restaurant group’s upper management, but they declined to act, even though the conduct was “universally known.”

It is unclear what effect the allegations will have on Deen, who, according to her website, has risen to the status of “American lifestyle icon,” with her combination of charming Southern shtick and gut-busting comfort food, including an egg-topped bacon burger with a doughnut bun. She is the star of two Food Network shows and the author of cookbooks that have sold more than 8 million copies.

Perhaps the most explosive allegation in the suit is that Deen, a frequent guest on the Oprah Winfrey show, used the epithet. Jackson claims that she was in charge of the food for Hiers’ 2007 wedding and asked Deen what look the wedding should have.

If you really would like to lose all faith in the human race, here's a link to the lawsuit with a listing of all horrible incidents.
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Obama
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Is there anyone besides the woman suing Dean for a buttload of cash who says she said that?

Also, I'd never even considered a bacon burger with egg on top served on a doughnut bun, but it sounds amazing and I really want to try one now.

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Misha McBride
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Yeah, Deen admitted she said it.

quote:
From Fox News, LOL:
According to the reports, in the deposition, Deen replied “Yes, of course,” when asked if she used the N-word.

Deen also reportedly admitted telling racist jokes, explaining: “It’s just what they are — they’re jokes…most jokes are about Jewish people, rednecks, black folks…I can’t determine what offends another person.”

Jackson said also Deen wanted African-American employees to act like slaves for a big wedding she was planning. Deen explained she got the idea from a restaurant where "the whole entire waiter staff was middle-aged black men, and they had on beautiful white jackets with a black bow tie," the National Enquirer reports. The magazine also quoted Deen as saying: “I mean, it was really impressive. That restaurant represented a certain era in America…after the Civil War, during the Civil War, before the Civil War…It was not only black men, it was black women…I would say they were slaves.”


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Obama
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Hah. Okay, I'll admit, she's quite unpleasant.
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Stone_Wolf_
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I had enough of her when she made out with a butter sculpture of her self.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Misha McBride:
quote:
Paula Deen's actual unsanitized quote:
Well what I would really like is a bunch of little niggers to wear long-sleeve white shirts, black shorts and black bow ties, you know in the Shirley Temple days, they used to tap dance around. Now, that would be a true Southern wedding wouldn’t it? But we can’t do that because the media would be on me about that.

And here's the context just in case someone wants to argue she's being unfairly quoted.

quote:
LA Times Article:
The civil complaint, which was filed Monday in state court in Savannah, Ga., was brought by Lisa T. Jackson, a former manager at Uncle Bubba's Oyster House, one of five restaurants in Deen's group. The Savannah-based oyster house is co-owned by Deen and her brother, Earl W. “Bubba” Hiers.

Much of the 33-page complaint details what it says was boorish and racist behavior by Hiers, including accusations that he physically intimidated employees, displayed pornography at work, acted toward Jackson in a sexually degrading manner — including forcibly kissing her cheek and spitting on her — and repeatedly using racial epithets.

Deen, Hiers and a number of Deen-owned companies are named as defendants in the suit, which seeks unspecified damages for sexual harassment, infliction of emotional distress, and other charges. Jackson, 48, left the oyster house job in August 2010.

Calls to Deen's Savannah business office, seeking comment from her and Hiers, were referred to the Rose Group, a Los Angeles-based “brand relations agency.” Calls to the Rose Group were not returned Monday.

Jackson — a white woman who managed a number African American employees — claims that over the course of five years, she made “numerous and frequent” complaints of racial and sexual harassment and other abusive treatment to Deen and others in her restaurant group’s upper management, but they declined to act, even though the conduct was “universally known.”

It is unclear what effect the allegations will have on Deen, who, according to her website, has risen to the status of “American lifestyle icon,” with her combination of charming Southern shtick and gut-busting comfort food, including an egg-topped bacon burger with a doughnut bun. She is the star of two Food Network shows and the author of cookbooks that have sold more than 8 million copies.

Perhaps the most explosive allegation in the suit is that Deen, a frequent guest on the Oprah Winfrey show, used the epithet. Jackson claims that she was in charge of the food for Hiers’ 2007 wedding and asked Deen what look the wedding should have.

If you really would like to lose all faith in the human race, here's a link to the lawsuit with a listing of all horrible incidents.

I feel ill.
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Samprimary
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Yeah this seriously for serious comes from a conversation, Deen explains, where she was romanticizing romantic ol' slavery timez restauraunt where you could be served by pleasant smiling negro boys who knew their places and were real polite yassir

it was simultaneously really disturbing and also completely not out of character with Shit We Let Antebellum Nostalgics Get Away With

The South

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Lyrhawn
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Is the restaurant called Moonlight and Magnolias?
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Jeff C.
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I don't really care much about this, but when I was on the treadmill at the gym the other day, they played all this on one of the screens and I ended up learning about it. Having said that, I don't really think this is a big deal. The big deal is what samp said, which is that she wanted to start a restaurant about slavery, which is crazy. Everyone has at one point or another said the N-word, but she didn't say it recently and so I find that whole thing mute.

I can't believe she lost her job (didn't know that), but I guess it makes sense given how sensitive people are to these things. Personally speaking, I can't put myself in a black person's shoes, so I don't know if this whole thing was actually offensive to that culture, but I personally don't care.

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Rakeesh
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If you think the only thing that really happened was Deen waxing wistful for a slavery-toned restaurant, then I'm afraid you didn't get the whole story, Jeff. Deen has herself admitted to more than that, and not in the distant past, either.

Also, I should say that not everyone has 'used' that particular slur. By that I mean myself for example have used it to quote a song, a story, a film, so on and so forth, but never as an actual 'this is what I mean, personally' casual usage. Or any other racial slurs for that matter. To give that statement some qualification, unfortunately I can't say the same thing about homophobic or misogynistic words-but that likely has a very great deal to do with the one category being completely out of bounds among my friends, family, etc, and the other two categories being considered bad and impolite words usually in mixed company but not actually taboo.

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Misha McBride
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As a lifetime resident of the South and as someone who was once a young idiot, I will cop to having used the n-word several times. However, despite the circumstances I do not excuse myself. I knew it was wrong when I did it and unlike Paula Deen, I feel like a piece of shit now whenever I think back on it. She honestly doesn't think she's doing anything wrong aside from getting caught by the media.
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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
If you think the only thing that really happened was Deen waxing wistful for a slavery-toned restaurant, then I'm afraid you didn't get the whole story, Jeff. Deen has herself admitted to more than that, and not in the distant past, either.

What else did I miss?

quote:
Also, I should say that not everyone has 'used' that particular slur. By that I mean myself for example have used it to quote a song, a story, a film, so on and so forth, but never as an actual 'this is what I mean, personally' casual usage. Or any other racial slurs for that matter. To give that statement some qualification, unfortunately I can't say the same thing about homophobic or misogynistic words-but that likely has a very great deal to do with the one category being completely out of bounds among my friends, family, etc, and the other two categories being considered bad and impolite words usually in mixed company but not actually taboo.

You said you used it to quote something. I've never used it derogitorily, either, but I've said it, which is my point. Now, I have certainly used other terms derogitorily when I was younger, like gay slurs and whatnot, because when you're in middle school, it's pretty standard to call your friends that. Anyway, my point is just that we've all had experiences where we've used a term that we probably shouldn't---a term that might offend another person in a certain situation. None of us are innocent, really.
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BlackBlade
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That's exactly it. We might have used it while we were learning how to use language appropriately. Some of us might have even learned to stop using it in our adult years.

Paula Deen is the sort of person where were she around certain people (such as family), discussing certain topics (how great things used to be in the South, or black people) she wouldn't hesitate to continue using it in a derogatory fashion.

She's welcome to her speech, but I wouldn't associate with her in a professional or personal capacity.

When my grandma recently saw two white people with a black daughter and said, "That little girl is very cute for a black girl." She might have consciously meant to say the girl was cute, but she has residual racist beliefs she was raised with and that came along for the ride.

We tell her to knock that garbage off, and that it's beneath her. She recognized that what she said was offensive, so there's that. But the moment she hems or haws about why she should be excused, or why it's not really that bad of a remark, we hammer it back in that she's being a racist. She needs that if she's ever going to *not* be racist.

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Rakeesh
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Jeff,

If none of us are innocent what's the point of getting upset about anything, ever? Because I had a bad, unthinking habit of calling someone gay as an insult in high school that means I can't consider it wrong and out of bounds for Deen to casually throw around racial slurs at work to employees while her husband watches porn in the office?

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MikeMarine
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The sad part is the literally hundreds of professional, semi-professional and amateur rappers who use the word scores of times daily and get away with demeaning their primary audience besides their anti-women lyrics.

What's their punishment?

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Jeff,

If none of us are innocent what's the point of getting upset about anything, ever? Because I had a bad, unthinking habit of calling someone gay as an insult in high school that means I can't consider it wrong and out of bounds for Deen to casually throw around racial slurs at work to employees while her husband watches porn in the office?

You're quoting a very specific example of something I don't know anything about. All I know is that she admitted to using a racial slur over two decades ago.

If she did this recently and actually called someone that without provocation, then yes, I certainly do think it's wrong and I find it deplorable. However, if she said it 2-3 decades ago and it didn't in the workplace or in a professional level, I'm not sure it still matters.

As I said, however, if she actually did throw racial slurs around like that in her professional occupation, then yes, sure, she deserves to be punished.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeMarine:
The sad part is the literally hundreds of professional, semi-professional and amateur rappers who use the word scores of times daily and get away with demeaning their primary audience besides their anti-women lyrics.

What's their punishment?

Well, they don't get shows on The Food Network for one.
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Rakeesh
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And then there's also the matter of, you know, that audience themselves getting a say in how demeaned they are (by which I mean the use of racial slurs in rap is by no means non-controversial among quite a lot of African Americans), which is a horse of a very different color (no pun intended) from Deen's "gee whiz a slavery theme would just be nifty" school of wedding planning.

The same can be said, to a lesser extent, of misogynistic slurs. It's heard more and more and criticized how demeaning to women much of rap actually is. But all of this has very little to do, as BlackBlade aptly pointed out, with the non-renewal of Deen's food network contract.

But as someone who basically said 'but black people say it!' I'm sure you were conscious of all that context, Mike.

----

Jeff,

Deen has admitted to more than you learned about in her own deposition, and contradicted herself as well. Sometimes it's a word that they don't use (in a 'mean' way), sometimes she says her brother doesn't say it (even though he admits to it), jokes are almost all targeted towards various racial or sexual groups, she wouldn't object to the word told in a 'non-mean' way at home but she doesn't tell jokes at home (what?), but her husband tells a lot of jokes, etc.

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Obama
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Rappers make that music. People want to hear it and buy it, don't mind what they hear, and come back to buy more.

I don't see why there needs to be punishment.

Deen has, way or another, pissed off the people who used to "listen" to her. This is why she is recieving "punishment" and the rappers aren't.

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Darth_Mauve
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Paula was fired for two reasons:

1) Her on-air personality of a nice motherly southern woman was tarnished by her attitude towards people of a darker skin tones. You expect a rapper to use foul language. You don't expect you sweet grandmother too.

2) It was not just that she admitted using the "n word" at times in the past, but that she used it recently in the management of her restaurant and the way she treated her employees. She is being accused of work practices that include limiting the pay and options of her employees based only on the color of their skin. This was fine in 1953, not 2013.

If you are upset that she lost her job because she has not changed her views on race, pity the people she has fired in the past because of their race. She has enough money to live off of, her restaurant employees do not. She can change her attitude--her employees can not change their skin color.

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narrativium
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
She is being accused of work practices that include limiting the pay and options of her employees based only on the color of their skin. This was fine in 1953, not 2013.

No, it was legal in 1953. That doesn't mean it was ok.

Just wanted to make sure that distinction is clear.

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Jeff,

Deen has admitted to more than you learned about in her own deposition, and contradicted herself as well. Sometimes it's a word that they don't use (in a 'mean' way), sometimes she says her brother doesn't say it (even though he admits to it), jokes are almost all targeted towards various racial or sexual groups, she wouldn't object to the word told in a 'non-mean' way at home but she doesn't tell jokes at home (what?), but her husband tells a lot of jokes, etc.

Yeah, I didn't know about all that.

Honestly though, is anyone really all that surprised? The woman is an old southern lady with obvious roots in that culture. I'm from the South and I grew up hearing racial slurs of every sort, especially when it comes to blacks and hispanics. I find racism deplorable and I really don't think she should be allowed to do what she did, but the fact that people are acting so shocked that someone like her would say stuff like that is a little strange.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by narrativium:
quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
She is being accused of work practices that include limiting the pay and options of her employees based only on the color of their skin. This was fine in 1953, not 2013.

No, it was legal in 1953. That doesn't mean it was ok.

Just wanted to make sure that distinction is clear.

I don't think he disagrees with you, he just didn't use a more precise word in his sentence.

Not many people in South would have batted an eye if you said, "I don't think a black person should be paid like a white one."

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Darth_Mauve
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In Alabama in 1953 they would have batted an eye on the phrase "black person". Some didn't think those two words went together.
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ScottF
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The poison around "nigger" has always troubled me. Years ago I was in a movie theater restroom in Canada and a black guy and his buddy were also in there. As I'm taking a pee, the guy loudly says "Did you just call me a nigger?". God's honest truth, I didn't even know how to react. I kind of mumbled "uh, what..no" and got the hell out of there. What would you have done?

I have no idea what the guy's motivation was. Maybe he wanted to have some fun and show his buddy how he could make anyone squirm instantly. Whatever his reasons, it really made me mad afterward.

What shocked me was my paralysis when confronted like that. How could something as innocuous as a 2 syllable word cause a (relatively) intelligent adult to panic? Because it bullshit, that's why. You can't have a massively popular sub culture commonly use the word as entertainment street cred AND simultaneously claim that it is such a painful reminder of past horrors that anyone else even suspected of saying it should be publicly drawn and quartered.

As far as Deen goes, I really don't care about her. I'd never even heard about her before this and I have zero interest in her or defending whatever stupid stuff she's said. It's the toxicity around the word really pisses me off.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
You can't have a massively popular sub culture commonly use the word as entertainment street cred AND simultaneously claim that it is such a painful reminder of past horrors that anyone else even suspected of saying it should be publicly drawn and quartered.
First of all, why not? Second, you're vastly overstating both the popularity of this sub-culture and the penalty to people using it. The latter seeks hyperbolic, but it feels like you really do believe this sub-culture is hugely popular. I submit that because of your own (understandable) sensitivity to the word's usage, 'blameless' uses of it register much more strongly in your mind.

Let's see, third the 'massively popular sub-culture' and the people most strongly opposing the use of the word aren't the same people. Fourth, words mean different things from different people in different contexts, and expecting universality of connotation is silly. Fifth, chill out. Unless I'm mistaken, your particular racial and gender group still by a large margin disproportionately controls government, economy, and the media. You can't say a word with impunity, and (you feel) some other people can.

Umm...sorry?

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ScottF
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1. Because..hypocrisy?
2. Obviously I was using hyperbole. Hip hop culture is big, ironically among the kids who have nothing in common with it. My biggest issue with hip hop is that, with a few exceptions, the "music" flat out sucks.
3. I completely agree with you.
4. I'm not expecting universal connotation. Just a narrowing of the gap.
5. Do you really think my beef is that I wish I could use the word with impunity, or at all? Seriously? I'll have to remember that my skin color and gender are gating factors when commenting on double standards. No need to apologize, I'm chill as a fridge.

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Samprimary
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quote:
I'll have to remember that my skin color and gender are gating factors when commenting on double standards.
what double standards
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Rakeesh
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quote:
1. Because..hypocrisy?
2. Obviously I was using hyperbole. Hip hop culture is big, ironically among the kids who have nothing in common with it. My biggest issue with hip hop is that, with a few exceptions, the "music" flat out sucks.
3. I completely agree with you.
4. I'm not expecting universal connotation. Just a narrowing of the gap.
5. Do you really think my beef is that I wish I could use the word with impunity, or at all? Seriously? I'll have to remember that my skin color and gender are gating factors when commenting on double standards. No need to apologize, I'm chill as a fridge.

1. You've reiterated your initial point without any additional argument. Why is it hypocrisy? Words have context. Who says them, when, where, how, and to whom can change their meaning and how they'll be received. This is something every single human being knows, but for some reason many of us forget when there's a word we feel we don't get to say and should, or others get to say and shouldn't. That's when we tend to throw that basic level communication knowledge out the window.

2. You'll have to excuse me for wondering just how much attention you've paid to hip-hop music and with how objective an eye, and also for wondering why you should be any different from every single human generation ever that thinks the music kids these days listen to sucks. Furthermore, while there are a lot of surveys out there, many of them list hip hop as far from highest or even top five on the list of favorite music among teens. Go take a look.

3. If you completely agree, what on Earth is the basis of the rest of your complaints?

4. Yes you are. Or at least you're upset in your post that you don't have it.

5. I didn't say you wanted to, I said you were upset that other people could use it with (what you felt) was impunity and linked that to your getting in trouble and feeling anxious even if you're accused of using it.

As for commenting on a double standard, it would be one thing if you commented on a double standard, but you did more than that. You expressed a bunch of contradictory or exaggerated reasons why it was a double standard, ignored the simple reality that words have context, and expressed that you were shocked, anxious, and pissed off. You'll have to excuse me for not thinking you were refrigerated.

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steven
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There are plenty of young African-American males who would be HIGHLY offended if they heard a white person use the n-word. Plenty of those same young men enjoy hip-hop a great deal.

I'm starting to wonder if ANY of you actually know any young black men. Seriously, I'm wondering. The fact that I'm the first person to point out that plenty of young black men love hip-hop and HATE it when white people use the word is...fairly telling, maybe.

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Rakeesh
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What's fairly telling is that more than one person before you remarked on exactly that in this and many past similar threads without, apparently, being noticed by you.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
What's fairly telling is that more than one person before you remarked on exactly that in this and many past similar threads without, apparently, being noticed by you.

And yet you seem to believe it's not factual, which begs the question.
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