FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » War in Gaza (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: War in Gaza
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
The previous thread is gone right? Did we skip directly to deleting even potentially heated threads?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
lol why was it deleted


I assume that wasn't you BB?

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
It was not.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
BB is it possible to revive it?
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
was it removed by the original poster then?
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
BB is it possible to revive it?

I doubt it, but I will look into the matter.

Samprimary: I assume so, I suppose it is also possible that the person's account was hacked.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath           Edit/Delete Post 
Was it hacked by 4chan?!? They must be up to their usual trickery then.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
this is the perfect synthesis of forum topics.

Dashcon: Gaza

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath           Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't there already enough suffering in this world?
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
In any case, Sam I want to question you on some if the facts in the screed you had wrote.

You claimed Israel was in charge of the cycle for displacing Palestinians in the West Bank. First, how does this claim fit in with Israel withdrawing from Gaza and this resulting in the increase in terrorism we see today? What makes you think Israel's settlements in the West Bank is what caused Palestinians to turn to Hamas in Gaza? Secondly, I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that the settlements being built in the WB were being built next to Palestinian cities. I've never heard of one where Israelis picked up and moved the Palestinians so they can live in an area that was already occupied.

Also, you had mentioned something about the Palestinians need to be more like the Kurds if they want their own state. I'm curious what you mean by this. The Kurd separatists haven't been successful at getting their own country. What exactly do the Kurds do that the Palestinians should be doing?

Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
Gaal: Calling something a screed is pretty much a fantastic way to get people to not take you seriously. Sam will probably just laugh it off, but it's still counterintuitive if you want a good conversation.

quote:
You claimed Israel was in charge of the cycle for displacing Palestinians in the West Bank. First, how does this claim fit in with Israel withdrawing from Gaza and this resulting in the increase in terrorism we see today?
I can field this one. Israel has in many instances not stopped its' own citizens from establishing illegal settlements in the Palestinian partition.

Israel's response to these settlements ranges from stopping them, through turning a blind eye, and ending at outright enabling them while lying about it.

Look it's understandable Israel is going to need more space, their population is growing, but if Israel expects Hamas to stop launching rockets, they need to look to their own populaces' bad behavior.

When there is peace between the two countries, *then* we can talk about new settlements and building Jewish communities in Palestine, and Palestinians moving freely through Israel. But right now Israel insists on partition, so their own people have to accept the drawbacks with the security benefits.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
Screed was his word in describing his own post in the previous thread. I didn't know what it meant and after looking it up, I thought it was funny and adopted it. I didn't mean it as an insult.

You didn't field my question at all, though.

"but if Israel expects Hamas to stop launching rockets, they need to look to their own populaces' bad behavior."

What evidence do you have that Hamas' rocket launching is caused by continued settlements in the West Bank (where Hamas isn't even based)? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. Not just stopping settlements in the West Bank. I'm not excusing illegal settlements, but I don't see any evidence that they caused Hamas to resort to rockets, or even that if they never built a single illegal settlement, the rockets would have never been launched.

And which illegal settlements, specifically, displaced Palestinian homes? I can find plenty of names of illegal settlements but am having trouble finding any where there was preexisting Palestinian homes that were forced to move because of new construction.

Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Darth_Mauve
Member
Member # 4709

 - posted      Profile for Darth_Mauve   Email Darth_Mauve         Edit/Delete Post 
Lets look at this fairly, shall we.

No, Hamas will not stop firing missiles if Israel starts destroying illegal Israeli settlements.

Hamas, and its backers in Iran, want to see Israel gone, and Islam supreme.

Israel has the right to defend itself against those who are trying to wipe it off the face of the earth.

Just as the US has the right to defend itself against those--Al Queda for example --who are trying to wipe it off the face of the earth.

Just as the average Palestinian has the right to defend itself from those who are trying to wipe them off the face of the earth--and the Fanatics who open up those illegal settlements are doing just that. To the average Palestinian, and to the average Arab anywhere, those settlements are a slow conquest of Palestinian land. The goal of the settlers is the creation of a Greater Israel that stretches to the farthest reaches of King David's empire. Those non-Jews who are living in the way now are to be driven off holy lands.

The illegal settlers plans for Palestine are less violent, but just as final as Hamas's plans for Israel--except the settlers are succeeding.

So the average Palestinian is forced to make two choices--go with Israel which offers them slow annihilation as a people, 2nd class citizenship, insults and desegregation, and no future, or Hamas who offers them limited immediate help, pride, and a sense of a future.

It is all lies, of course, but it is the only hope some in Palestine can find.

So no, stopping the settlements won't stop Hamas, but if Israel were to offer Palestine concrete hope, a concrete future, and most important and immediately--stop the constant humiliation--then the Palestinians will stop supporting Hamas.

Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
GaalDornick:
quote:
Screed was his word in describing his own post in the previous thread. I didn't know what it meant and after looking it up, I thought it was funny and adopted it. I didn't mean it as an insult.
Fair enough, my mistake.

quote:
You didn't field my question at all, though.
Not even just a little fielding?... [Frown]

quote:
What evidence do you have that Hamas' rocket launching is caused by continued settlements in the West Bank (where Hamas isn't even based)? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. Not just stopping settlements in the West Bank. I'm not excusing illegal settlements, but I don't see any evidence that they caused Hamas to resort to rockets, or even that if they never built a single illegal settlement, the rockets would have never been launched.

Well for one thing the teens who were abducted were settlers in the West Bank...

For another, it doesn't really matter that if settlements all stopped Hamas would still be launching rockets. It sounds like you're arguing that if I try to beat you up because you've been raping me and stealing my stuff, and then you stop stealing from me that somehow I should calm down now or else stop acting like your theft bothers me.

I mean I guess Hamas could aim their rockets only at Jewish settlements, but seeing as how their rockets aren't nearly that accurate that seems pointless.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Darth_Mauve:
Lets look at this fairly, shall we.

No, Hamas will not stop firing missiles if Israel starts destroying illegal Israeli settlements.

Hamas, and its backers in Iran, want to see Israel gone, and Islam supreme.

Israel has the right to defend itself against those who are trying to wipe it off the face of the earth.

Just as the US has the right to defend itself against those--Al Queda for example --who are trying to wipe it off the face of the earth.

Just as the average Palestinian has the right to defend itself from those who are trying to wipe them off the face of the earth--and the Fanatics who open up those illegal settlements are doing just that. To the average Palestinian, and to the average Arab anywhere, those settlements are a slow conquest of Palestinian land. The goal of the settlers is the creation of a Greater Israel that stretches to the farthest reaches of King David's empire. Those non-Jews who are living in the way now are to be driven off holy lands.

The illegal settlers plans for Palestine are less violent, but just as final as Hamas's plans for Israel--except the settlers are succeeding.

So the average Palestinian is forced to make two choices--go with Israel which offers them slow annihilation as a people, 2nd class citizenship, insults and desegregation, and no future, or Hamas who offers them limited immediate help, pride, and a sense of a future.

It is all lies, of course, but it is the only hope some in Palestine can find.

So no, stopping the settlements won't stop Hamas, but if Israel were to offer Palestine concrete hope, a concrete future, and most important and immediately--stop the constant humiliation--then the Palestinians will stop supporting Hamas.

I don't disagree on any particular point. Although I am wondering what makes you think Palestinians would be given 2nd class citizenship and no future? Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. Voting rights and everything.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Well for one thing the teens who were abducted were settlers in the West Bank...

For another, it doesn't really matter that if settlements all stopped Hamas would still be launching rockets. It sounds like you're arguing that if I try to beat you up because you've been raping me and stealing my stuff, and then you stop stealing from me that somehow I should calm down now or else stop acting like your theft bothers me.

I mean I guess Hamas could aim their rockets only at Jewish settlements, but seeing as how their rockets aren't nearly that accurate that seems pointless.

Can you be a bit more specific on how this analogy applies to this topic? I'm not following. I also don't understand your third paragraph. Are you implying that the only reason Hamas' rockets are landing (well, attempting to land) in heavily populated areas within Israel is because they aren't accurate enough to only hit Jewish settlements in the West Bank?
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds like you are arguing that the fact Hamas would probably continue to fire rockets at Israel even if settlements were stopped completely that that is evidence that settlements don't really bother Hamas and are not a key concern. I think that's mistaken. If you aren't arguing that, then we're cool I guess.

As for rockets. No, I was trying to address the possible argument that the rockets are not only targeting settlements, but that too does not mean Hamas does not care about settlements.

(Man, too many "nots" in that paragraph. Here's a sanitized version).

Hamas hates the settlements, even if their rockets seem to hit all over Israel, instead of being more surgical.

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
It sounds like you are arguing that the fact Hamas would probably continue to fire rockets at Israel even if settlements were stopped completely that that is evidence that settlements don't really bother Hamas and are not a key concern. I think that's mistaken.

I think Hamas' key concern is Israel's existence. I think this because they've blatantly said so. I think the settlements are a concern for them because it means Israelis are still alive.

quote:
Hamas hates the settlements, even if their rockets seem to hit all over Israel, instead of being more surgical.
Hamas hates Israel period. Whether Israel continues to build illegal settlements, whether they never built any to begin with, or whether Israel completely withdraws from the West Bank altogether, the way they did in Gaza, it will not stop the rockets nor did it cause them to begin with.

Now that's out of the way, I absolutely agree with the point being made that Palestinians turned to Hamas out of desperation, but I don't see what Israel can do about this. Even if innocent Palestinians realized Hamas does not have their best interests at heart, it won't change a thing because Hamas are the guys with the guns. Good luck to moderate Palestinians that want to speak out against them. This conflict cannot be resolved until Hamas is completely destroyed and the Palestinians have a chance at moderate leadership who will negotiate peacefully with Israel.

Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
GaalDornick: Well at least we've gotten to the seed of our disagreement.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
Which is?

Do you disagree that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist?

Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
... This conflict cannot be resolved until Hamas is completely destroyed and the Palestinians have a chance at moderate leadership who will negotiate peacefully with Israel.

Which is probably a good summary of the situation because the amount of hope I have that one, as a hated enemy and occupier, can successfully destroy extremists and have them replaced with moderates is well ... I'm more hopeful that I'll win the lottery tomorrow, having not bought a ticket.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
Which is?

Do you disagree that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist?

It's pretty hard to disagree with that particular statement.

Do you disagree that Israel imposed an economic blockade on the Gaza Strip and West Bank the moment Hamas was legitimately elected over Fatah?

Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
Palestinians tried moderate leadership, but every time they try it they get ignored. The world only cares about Palestine when Palestine throws a hissy fit, so they've learned this is the only real bargaining chip they have and Israel plays right into it.

Where had Abbas been during this whole thing? Marginslized. Why? Because Israel ignores him knowing he'll never really cause them any problems. So people turn to Hamas because Hamas keeps the schools open and the trains running on time.

My guess is if Israel offered most of what is on Hamas' unofficial wishlist in return for recognition they would probably get it. But they never will, because right wing hardliners will never abandon settlements, offer right of return or allow Palestine to have any control over east Jerusalem.
I wish they'd just call Hamas bluff and either solve the problem or regain some moral high ground.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
Which is?

Do you disagree that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist?

It's pretty hard to disagree with that particular statement.

Do you disagree that Israel imposed an economic blockade on the Gaza Strip and West Bank the moment Hamas was legitimately elected over Fatah?

Nope. I also don't disagree with Israel doing it.

quote:
Palestinians tried moderate leadership, but every time they try it they get ignored. The world only cares about Palestine when Palestine throws a hissy fit, so they've learned this is the only real bargaining chip they have and Israel plays right into it.

Where had Abbas been during this whole thing? Marginslized. Why? Because Israel ignores him knowing he'll never really cause them any problems. So people turn to Hamas because Hamas keeps the schools open and the trains running on time.

Right because Fatah is moderate leadership. This didn't happen while Fatah was in power. What moderate leadership has Palestine had? Arafat? He was really moderate at the Camp David Summit.

"I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace."

-Bill Clinton

And to answer your question of where Abbas has been during this whole thing, you do realize he's not in power anymore, right?

[ July 27, 2014, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: GaalDornick ]

Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:

"but if Israel expects Hamas to stop launching rockets, they need to look to their own populaces' bad behavior."

What evidence do you have that Hamas' rocket launching is caused by continued settlements in the West Bank (where Hamas isn't even based)? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. Not just stopping settlements in the West Bank. I'm not excusing illegal settlements, but I don't see any evidence that they caused Hamas to resort to rockets, or even that if they never built a single illegal settlement, the rockets would have never been launched.

the overall point is that west bank is fatah'ing it up, and they have been rewarded with their moderation by illegal settlements that get the backing of israel and are slowly displacing the palestinian population. israel is just teaching that this is their response to attempting to live agreeably with the state of israel; you're slowly pushed out.

changing that and (probably) removing the illegal settlements comes off as a step one on the israel side, otherwise anyone with any sense will say that cooperation with israel is going to result in wholesale consumption of the very land you are trying to save.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post 
Hamas and it's supporters aren't firing rockets into Israel to try and kill Israelis. I don't think they really care if the rockets hit or not.

What they ARE doing is trying (successfully) to get Israel mad enough to attack Palestine, so they can wage a war on social media.

I don't think they care about the Palestinian people at all, they just want a way to play the victim. They want to pull western support away from Israel, which would weaken them more than the hundreds of rockets they fire into Israel every day.

It is working. I hopped on social media this morning and saw all sorts of anti-Israeli posts and tweets. I saw one video claiming that it showed Israeli troops beating a woman and child, and people were commenting about how horrible Israel was. I watched the video and the men weren't soldiers, but police officers, and the police emblem was that of the Iranian guard. Hamas is relying on ignorance to garner support, and to those that don't live in the area, it is working.

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
hamas is firing rockets into israel to try to kill israelis but it is true that actually killing them in large number is not their overall goal. their primary target is the palestinians themselves.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Geraine
Member
Member # 9913

 - posted      Profile for Geraine   Email Geraine         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
hamas is firing rockets into israel to try to kill israelis but it is true that actually killing them in large number is not their overall goal. their primary target is the palestinians themselves.

This makes absolutely no sense. Are they using civilian homes and even a freaking United Nations school to house weapons and rockets? Yep. But they aren't shooting rockets at Palestinians. (well, besides the rumor of said UN school being hit by Hamas' own weapons, but there are conflicting reports) They are hoping to get Israel to do it so they can play the victim.

Again, Hamas knows they can't win an all out war against Israel. They are trying to play the victim to drum up anti-Israeli sentiment. It plays into their long game.

This about sums up how I feel about the whole thing:

http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/07/muslim-super-victim-is-the-hamas-goal-that-may-defeat-the-israeli-state-2453370.html

(forgive me for the source, though the site usually has extremely strange conspiracy theory stories, this story is one of the few normal ones)

Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post 
Their target is Palestinians, but the weapon isn't rockets. It's the Israeli military.

Anyway, look, I can't deny that no nation will endure even ineffectual military attacks. It can't. But as for this 'doesn't recognize the right to exist', well that runs both ways. Israelis aren't going through Palestinian checkpoints just to live their daily lives.

Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
...
http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/07/muslim-super-victim-is-the-hamas-goal-that-may-defeat-the-israeli-state-2453370.html

quote:
When it’s over the Muslim world will flee their homes from all over he world to join in solidarity to establish the world’s next superpower, Palestine.
quote:
I would not be surprised if the civil war in Syria is abandoned for a march on Israel.
Ah, concrete predictions, I like that. Although the former is lacking a timetable although it strongly implies the near future.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
the hell is this website anyway
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
80 | Lindsey Williams 2015 Elite Agenda Revealed! When Will The Fireworks Begin?
72 | Project CAMELOT: A Rothschild Speaks Out - This Is A Big Deal
62 | Mother Of All Bombshells! Huge US Military Buildup In Ukraine - "This Is All...
62 | Russia Admits WW3 Is Coming! 'There Is A War Coming In Europe'
41 | ★Our Sun Hollow Earth and Data Denial During Crisis Predictions Of Billy Meier...
32 | Lucifer On The Trillion Dollar Space Program, Reptilians And The Jesus Project...
30 | 3 Agents With CIA, FBI And DEA Warn America (Video)
30 | Robbing Hood: Ohio Stealing Homes To Launder Money Into State Pension Plan!
29 | Scientists Speechless At What They Find Beneath Egypt! One of the Most...
28 | CONFIRMED: Alien Contact To Be Announced By Obama! The Secret Deal With Putin
28 | Florida Beaches; Ground Zero For End Times? (WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT)
27 | Leaked Footage of 9/11 Will Give You Chills (Video) - Nuclear Analysis
24 | Strange US Navy Behavior - Martial Law Or WW3 Prep? Dave Hodges On The Hagmann...
24 | X22Report Central Bankers Continually Pushing War As The Economy Falters -...
24 | Must See: Could This Be The End Of The Elites? Obama, Queen Elizabeth II, The Vatican!! (Stunning Vi
(N.Morgan) As we’ve watched the Power Elite destroy the world, one country at a time, we could be at the cusp of the end of their reign of terror. It would seem they are at the end of their ropes and may just hang, very soon. The video below gives...
24 | MH17 Crisis Actors Completely Revealed! FALSE FLAG!


Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post 
Leaked footage, of huge US military build up in Ohio to steal homes financed by a Palestinian money laundering scheme, that began with Aliens landing at 9/11 Ground Zero. False Flag!
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
Just so we are all on the same page, we know that Hamas (for once) didn't actually start this particular escalation, right? The Israelis took advantage of the kidnap/murder to raid and/or destroy various Hamas leader's homes, even though, at best, there was no conclusive evidence that Hamas had a direct hand in that awful situation.

At this point, no one is smelling like roses in this particular escalation, and this has no bearing on the culpability of previous escalations, of course.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/07/29/the-lie-behind-the-war-ctd-2/

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thesifer
Member
Member # 12890

 - posted      Profile for Thesifer           Edit/Delete Post 
It's always been a weird situation to me, as from my understanding of history, the country is actually Palestine (Who is now fighting FOR a country officially) that was basically co-opted by the British and then settled. As in the ENTIRE State of Israel is a 'settlement' IN Palestine.

Wouldn't this be close to the same as Native Americans fighting the British and French settlers? As in - Not a good thing, but you know where they're coming from?

This has never seemed like a "Muslim / Jew" conflict as much as it's been a Land conflict. And the fact that the British Empire decided that the one land that three major religious groups find to be the most sacred / holy would be a great place to settle large amounts of people. (And even larger amounts when the Jews were displaced during WWII.)

But again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, but I don't see this as the religious war it's made out to be, and I can't see why everyone says the Palestinians are the aggressors and were never the victim. I don't have anything against the Jewish people, or Palestinian people.

Posts: 164 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elison R. Salazar
Member
Member # 8565

 - posted      Profile for Elison R. Salazar   Email Elison R. Salazar         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah I'm generally Pro-Israel and tended to agree with Lisa on a lot of issues but this is deliberate ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity.

quote:
Originally posted by Thesifer:
It's always been a weird situation to me, as from my understanding of history, the country is actually Palestine (Who is now fighting FOR a country officially) that was basically co-opted by the British and then settled. As in the ENTIRE State of Israel is a 'settlement' IN Palestine.

Wouldn't this be close to the same as Native Americans fighting the British and French settlers? As in - Not a good thing, but you know where they're coming from?

This has never seemed like a "Muslim / Jew" conflict as much as it's been a Land conflict. And the fact that the British Empire decided that the one land that three major religious groups find to be the most sacred / holy would be a great place to settle large amounts of people. (And even larger amounts when the Jews were displaced during WWII.)

But again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, but I don't see this as the religious war it's made out to be, and I can't see why everyone says the Palestinians are the aggressors and were never the victim. I don't have anything against the Jewish people, or Palestinian people.

Eh, Jews were a majority in the lands originally assigned to them in the 1948 UN Partition Plan, the British Empire did not in anyway encourage Jewish immigration to Palestine.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Thesifer:
It's always been a weird situation to me, as from my understanding of history, the country is actually Palestine (Who is now fighting FOR a country officially) that was basically co-opted by the British and then settled. As in the ENTIRE State of Israel is a 'settlement' IN Palestine.

Wouldn't this be close to the same as Native Americans fighting the British and French settlers? As in - Not a good thing, but you know where they're coming from?

This has never seemed like a "Muslim / Jew" conflict as much as it's been a Land conflict. And the fact that the British Empire decided that the one land that three major religious groups find to be the most sacred / holy would be a great place to settle large amounts of people. (And even larger amounts when the Jews were displaced during WWII.)

But again, maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation, but I don't see this as the religious war it's made out to be, and I can't see why everyone says the Palestinians are the aggressors and were never the victim. I don't have anything against the Jewish people, or Palestinian people.

It's hard to ignore the religious component.

Why is the world so focused on Gaza right now?

You might answer "well, because of the obvious humanitarian plight!"

To which I would reply, okay, but what about the hundreds of thousands kill in Syria? What about the photos circulating supposedly from Gaza but are actually from Syria? What about the MILLIONS displaced and living in camps in Jordan and Lebanon? What about the young boys being rounded up by ISIS and executed? Or the boys kidnapped by ISIS and forced to undergo 8 hours a day of religious indoctrination?

Been going on for months. Been going on for years. Al Jazeera covers it pretty well, but otherwise the American press is pretty silent on the matter.

But Israel kills a thousand people (a drop in the bucket of global conflict deaths) and it's the most talked about debate on the planet.

Even if we narrow the scope to the Middle East itself, you'll notice that other Muslims aren't lifting much of a finger to stop the slaughter in Muslim on Muslim violence. But when Jews are doing the killing, it's suddenly the biggest issue ever.

There's also the fact that this isn't merely a land struggle, it's a land struggle where one half believes God Himself told them this is their land and they have to kill to defend it.

It's clearly not JUST about land, even if land is at the heart of the matter.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Why is the world so focused on Gaza right now?

You might answer "well, because of the obvious humanitarian plight!"

To which I would reply, okay, but what about the hundreds of thousands kill in Syria? What about the photos circulating supposedly from Gaza but are actually from Syria? What about the MILLIONS displaced and living in camps in Jordan and Lebanon? What about the young boys being rounded up by ISIS and executed? Or the boys kidnapped by ISIS and forced to undergo 8 hours a day of religious indoctrination?

It's the same as famine in africa: something so unwaveringly par-for-the-course that we don't even consider it news anymore. just background noise we like to tune out.

Yet when it's jews vs. arabs suddenly this is an ideologically entrenched deal and old white american people get to have their Right Side and Wrong Side and we're off to the races

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
and to sum it up

http://vimeo.com/50531435

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thesifer
Member
Member # 12890

 - posted      Profile for Thesifer           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Eh, Jews were a majority in the lands originally assigned to them in the 1948 UN Partition Plan, the British Empire did not in anyway encourage Jewish immigration to Palestine. [/QB]

From my understanding this isn't true. As it was going on well before the 1940's. Including as early as 'encouraging' it in the late 1800's.

They did eventually have to discourage it, when it started causing riots. But I don't think it's accurate to say that the British Empire didn't encourage the takeover of Palestine.

Posts: 164 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Thesifer
Member
Member # 12890

 - posted      Profile for Thesifer           Edit/Delete Post 
Reading more about it though, I'm sure it's a lot more nuanced than what I can post here and have the time to read up on.

I'd rather not 'blame' Israel or Palestine for the issues, and hope they can one day come to some sort of agreement. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Posts: 164 | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lyrhawn
Member
Member # 7039

 - posted      Profile for Lyrhawn   Email Lyrhawn         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Why is the world so focused on Gaza right now?

You might answer "well, because of the obvious humanitarian plight!"

To which I would reply, okay, but what about the hundreds of thousands kill in Syria? What about the photos circulating supposedly from Gaza but are actually from Syria? What about the MILLIONS displaced and living in camps in Jordan and Lebanon? What about the young boys being rounded up by ISIS and executed? Or the boys kidnapped by ISIS and forced to undergo 8 hours a day of religious indoctrination?

It's the same as famine in africa: something so unwaveringly par-for-the-course that we don't even consider it news anymore. just background noise we like to tune out.

Yet when it's jews vs. arabs suddenly this is an ideologically entrenched deal and old white american people get to have their Right Side and Wrong Side and we're off to the races

I'm not sure that's fair. Famine in Africa is a decades-old talked about problem.

The ISIS conflict is weeks old. The Syria conflict has been going on for a few weeks, and unlike Africa, both have direct and indirect importance to our national security. Not exactly part-for-the course.

While I believe the American attention span IS in fact that short, I'm not sure the two are analogous for the reasons you implied.

Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mucus
Member
Member # 9735

 - posted      Profile for Mucus           Edit/Delete Post 
I feel like we're glossing over the upcoming tectonic shift toward a new Palestinian superpower and Muslims all around the world pretty much dropping what they're doing and walking toward Israel.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I'm not sure that's fair. Famine in Africa is a decades-old talked about problem.

The ISIS conflict is weeks old. The Syria conflict has been going on for a few weeks, and unlike Africa, both have direct and indirect importance to our national security. Not exactly part-for-the course.

The syria conflict has been going on for 'a few weeks' .. ?
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
GaalDornick
Member
Member # 8880

 - posted      Profile for GaalDornick           Edit/Delete Post 
http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/michael-oren-israel-must-be-permitted-to-crush-hamas/2014/07/24/bd9967fc-1350-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html

Thoughts?

Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I'm not sure that's fair. Famine in Africa is a decades-old talked about problem.

The ISIS conflict is weeks old. The Syria conflict has been going on for a few weeks, and unlike Africa, both have direct and indirect importance to our national security. Not exactly part-for-the course.

The syria conflict has been going on for 'a few weeks' .. ?
I think he meant, "years."
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know how filtered the news we get here might be. Here is a different perspective on "human shields" and who uses them.

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/israels_military_has_no_moral_superiority_and_its_time_the_media_covered_gaza_fairly/
quote:
While human rights organizations haven’t yet addressed “human shields” allegations in the ongoing round of Israel-Gaza violence, they did after the 2009 round when Israel killed at least 773 Palestinian civilians, compared to three Israeli civilian casualties (a ratio of 257:1), and used the same “human shields” argument to deflect responsibility for those deaths. When the dust settled, Amnesty International investigated the matter and concluded that there was “no evidence that [Palestinian] rockets were launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were in these buildings.” More attention-worthy was the report’s note that,

in the cases of [Israeli] precision missiles or tank shells which killed [Palestinian] civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.


Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Darth_Mauve
Member
Member # 4709

 - posted      Profile for Darth_Mauve   Email Darth_Mauve         Edit/Delete Post 
A part of this is about expectations.

We expect Hamas and terrorists and to some extent all Palestinians to act like religious fanatics and barbarians. We assume the worst from them and when they show even the slightest compassion and civilized behavior we are impressed with their progress.

We expect the Israeli people and military to act like compassionate secular civilized people. We assume the best from them, and when they show the slightest failure of that, when even a few show the slightest barbaric, blood thirsty, or xenophobic behavior, when the racist minority or corrupt politicians show up on the news we are shocked at how far they have fallen.

When our heroes don't behave at all times at the most heroic, we cry over their fall. When our villains don't behave at all times at their most villainous, we embrace them for their improvement.

We want Israel to be the hero, and Hamas to be the villain. We know the villain will act villainous. We know that Hamas will act with terror and violence and total lack of compassion. We are just saddened and shocked that Israel is less the hero than we thought.

Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Elison R. Salazar
Member
Member # 8565

 - posted      Profile for Elison R. Salazar   Email Elison R. Salazar         Edit/Delete Post 
There isn't a good reason to 'let' Israel crush Hamas, it just perpetuates the violence, some other group will take their place or Israel will designate such a group as the new villains and the Forever-War continues.

quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:

Yeah this is just part of a deliberate effort to force them to leave and more to Jordan or something.
Posts: 12931 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Darth Mauve, I don't think that is an accurate picture of my expectations.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2