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Will it be the sort of question that assumes American Jews are a political monolith, whose chief guiding light in deciding their votes is whether the state of Israel is happy with someone right now?
Will it be the sort of question which assumes that all Jews in America support the policy of the Israeli government in all things?
Will it be the sort of question which assumes American Jews all support the Congressional Republican plan of increased hostility and saber rattling towards Iran, with no real plan for what to do if that doesn't work and instead makes the situation worse?
Will it be the sort of question that pretends that making these sorts of implicit assumptions about any racial or religious or even political group on such a general level implies a fundamental prejudice that is distasteful to be tarred with openly, so it has to be hinted at rather than openly stated?
Will it be the sort of fundamentalist Christian question which cynically doesn't give a real damn at all about Jews or Israel, and instead is only concerned with either for their supposed role in the apocalypse?
Will it be the sort of question that gives people an excuse to ask Ron Lambert any number of questions about provably wrong, ridiculous predictions he has made any number of times in the past, but couldn't muster the guts to even address in an online forum?
*shakes magic eight ball* Signs point to 'yes'!
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It's really weird to hear someone ask if literally any Jews still support Obama when it's probably easily Googleable that the great majority of Jews support obama.
But then, then I remember
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What have Democrats in general ever done that benefitted Jewish people in any way? Now that Obama is proving himself to be pro-Iranian and pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel, any continued support for Obama simply is not understandable. I mean that seriously. I have always respected the Jewish people, as being more intelligent than most. Yet so many of them do not seem to care about what is in their own best interests. So please, can someone explain to me what it is that leads so many Jews to continue supporting Democrats in general, and Obama in particular? Or are only totally close-minded liberals dominating this forum now, making it impossible to get an answer about this?
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I don't feel like elaborating on why I support specific Obama and Democratic policies, so to put it simply: I'm a Jew and I support policies that I think are best for the world regardless of what religion people are. I identify my religion's self-interests as our planet's interests. I think progressive liberal policies represent those interests the best.
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I realize that sounds like super cheesy idealism, but I think religious and cultural tribalism prevents a lot of problems we face from being corrected
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Or are only totally close-minded liberals dominating this forum now, making it impossible to get an answer about this?
Why are you still here?
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quote:What have Democrats in general ever done that benefitted Jewish people in any way?
Off the top of my head: a better economy, a freer society, and a social safety net that includes immigrants under its umbrella.
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There was the minor matter of invading Germany. Granted, too late, but I think some Jewish people still benefited.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: What have Democrats in general ever done that benefitted Jewish people in any way?
My grandmother fled Germany with her family in the 1930s for Norway (where she met my grandfather), and eventually the United States. It's entirely possible I wouldn't be here writing this if it wasn't for the light immigration standards and enforcement - members of my extended family died in the Holocaust.
More importantly, I'm intelligent enough (maybe due to my innate racial intelligence that makes me "more intelligent than most"?) to realize when I'm being used for an ulterior motive. Most conservative Christians don't give a shit about the safety or prosperity of the Jewish people, they care about *Israel* because of a recent obsession with biblical eschatology, and a belief in the importance of Israel in regards to the fulfillment of prophecy.
I'm very keenly aware that these are the same people that, 90 years ago, were circulating copies of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" and talking about the Rothschild Conspiracy and either created or supported a lot of the propaganda that led to the Holocaust in the first place.
I'm also aware that once the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation (which aren't very great for Israel, btw) don't play out, Evangelical Christianity will lose interest and the right will drop Israel's cause like a wet paper sack, leaving Israel stranded and with a lot more enemies than it would have had otherwise.
So it's definitely in my best interest to support the party that I think defends the rights of *all* people and will make the world a better and safer place for all people, because I don't think "positive" racism is really good for anyone involved. It'll just hurt us in the long run.
quote:Now that Obama is proving himself to be pro-Iranian and pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel,
[Citation Needed]
quote:any continued support for Obama simply is not understandable. I mean that seriously. I have always respected the Jewish people, as being more intelligent than most. Yet so many of them do not seem to care about what is in their own best interests.
Wow.
First, what a load of condescending bullshit.
Second, do you seriously believe intelligence is something that is caused by what racial, ethnic or cultural group one is part of?
Third, do you think looking out for one's own interests at the expense of the common good is a noble or admirable trait?
quote:So please, can someone explain to me what it is that leads so many Jews to continue supporting Democrats in general, and Obama in particular? Or are only totally close-minded liberals dominating this forum now, making it impossible to get an answer about this?
It sounds like you just answered your own question here Ron.
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For whatever it is worth making the effort to say it once again, I do not agree with the "Left Behind" or "Secret Rapture" dogma of some fundamentalists. I do not see final events in Bible prophecy as focusing on the Jews. But they did give us the Old Testament, and the Ten Commandments, and the Messiah.
Ben Shapiro has published an interesting 5:07 minute statement on YouTube. In it he notes that 78% of Jews voted for Obama in 2008, and 69% in 2012. He also noted that the vast majority of Jews do not practice Judaism, and 28% do not even believe in God. Apparently, most Jews are agnostic political left-wingers. A large percentage of Jews do not care about Israel. Shapiro also said that it seems that most Jews do not realize it is predominately conservative Christians who are the best friends of Jews, not the political left. He did note that among Orthodox Jews, who are about 10% of all Jews, about 2/3 voted against Obama.
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Ahhhhh, I can just feel the respect for the intelligence of the Jews as a race...errr, religion...errr, political group...errrr...non-liberals!...coming through.
I know that when I respect someone's intelligence, I make sure to point out what their own interests are and make sure to bring to light how stupid and self-destructive they are for not agreeing with me. That is, as everyone knows, the chief sign of intelligence: shared opinions!
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: For whatever it is worth making the effort to say it once again, I do not agree with the "Left Behind" or "Secret Rapture" dogma of some fundamentalists. I do not see final events in Bible prophecy as focusing on the Jews. But they did give us the Old Testament, and the Ten Commandments, and the Messiah.
Ben Shapiro has published an interesting 5:07 minute statement on YouTube. In it he notes that 78% of Jews voted for Obama in 2008, and 69% in 2012. He also noted that the vast majority of Jews do not practice Judaism, and 28% do not even believe in God. Apparently, most Jews are agnostic political left-wingers. A large percentage of Jews do not care about Israel. Shapiro also said that it seems that most Jews do not realize it is predominately conservative Christians who are the best friends of Jews, not the political left. He did note that among Orthodox Jews, who are about 10% of all Jews, about 2/3 voted against Obama.
You seem to have a strange desire to homogenize "Jews" into one large group (like the beginning of your thread) and then abandon that when the answers don't suit you. I was raised Christian and my only real connection to Judaism is we ate mostly Kosher foods growing up. (I think I first had real made-from-a-pig-not-a-turkey bacon when I was 20, it was a life changing experience) Are you talking about Jews as an ethnic group, a cultural group, or followers of Judaism? (or whatever definition best suits your argument at the time?) Because these are three distinct definitions.
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at the end of that video he literally said "jews who care about ~actual~ judaism don't vote leftist"
which is hilarious because the largest portion of jews here are reform and they outnumber orthodox jews 3.5 times over i think. i suppose he's one of those people who decides that 'actual' judaism is whatever he wants to decide it is for other people.
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There was a Republican law maker in Tennessee(?) who committed suicide because of Anti-Semite tactics by the GOP leadership there; I don't think the GOP are considerably better on the "Pro-Jewish" front Ron.
Additionally, why is it in the best interests of the United States to advance Israeli national interests? Why is respecting the right to self-determination and to not be occupied by a foreign power "Pro Palestinian"? Israel's occupation is illegal. And why is it the responsibility of the US government to "look out for" Jews in particular or give them special treatment instead as Americans as any other?
Without this treaty being negotiated Iran gets a weapon and there's nothing the United States or Israel can do about it.
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even cantor has acknowledged that antisemitism is a problem in the GOP today, especially in the caucuses where the weird large underbelly of american conservatives comes out to play. you know, much like with racism, bigotry, and extremely odd and paternalistic controlling sexism, and all that.
even mojo can get them to shutter sites they were turning a blind eye to before
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This is admittedly about...hmmm, 2/5ths out of interest in what the response would be, but 3/5 genuine curiosity:
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that it's agreed that Obama is in fact pro-Iranian. That's an enormous leap whose evidence was never even hinted at by you, Ron, much less presented, but still, for the sake of argument he's pro-Iranian. My question is why? I mean, he is supposedly a duplicitous conscienceless power-grabber, alright, fine. What is the conceivable gain for him to be deliberately in support of one of our most prominent enemies, whom if empowered weakens us...and the nation of which he is commander in chief?!
It's not entirely like the whole golden rule business over in the Indiana gay rights thread, wherein the governor points out that the defense against other kinds of discrimination which his stupid, bigoted law enables will be the golden rule. One might wonder why that wasn't supposed to be a defense against the persnickety homosexuals and all their godlessness and the way they love to hate `murica, but I digress: if Obama is actually as awful as you say he is, why act in support of Iran's interests now when he's reached the pinnacle of his power?
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yes i am actually somewhat curious about what ron thinks the endgame is here with obama selling out america to iran
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: This is admittedly about...hmmm, 2/5ths out of interest in what the response would be, but 3/5 genuine curiosity:
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that it's agreed that Obama is in fact pro-Iranian. That's an enormous leap whose evidence was never even hinted at by you, Ron, much less presented, but still, for the sake of argument he's pro-Iranian. My question is why? I mean, he is supposedly a duplicitous conscienceless power-grabber, alright, fine. What is the conceivable gain for him to be deliberately in support of one of our most prominent enemies, whom if empowered weakens us...and the nation of which he is commander in chief?!
I think people are wondering why Obama is so intent on cutting a deal when Iran's goal seems to be to get a deal where they still have the capabilities to get a bomb.
I've heard speculation of Obama's reasoning to be anything from lower oil prices to boost domestic popularity or, as Ron said, simply being pro-Iranian.
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There's no real logic to it; its conspiracy theories born and matured in an echo chamber of shrill idiotic desperation seasoned with racism and Islamophobia.
A lot of ignorant people simply just want the US to bomb or otherwise nuke Iran and that is simply beyond the US's means; so the US's only options are to negotiate a solution.
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The speculation on Obama's motivations are often stupid conspiracy theories, but I wouldn't write off everyone who questions why we're trying so hard to negotiate a deal as Islamophobes and racists. There's legitimate discussion to be had there.
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the worst part about this is that iran is a pretty good prospect for self-guided reform under circumstances that we can help along.
but if we did things the way which is becoming known as "the conservative way" it would be one of the worst possible outcomes
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the thing with iran is that it is a country that had a population explosion and most of the population now is way younger than it used to be and the young population actually significantly desires reforms (when they're not getting beaten and murdered by the regime, you know, little things like that) and under the right circumstances the whole country could start shifting hard to a secular revival.
the ruling elite have done their part to steadily erode their credibility with the under-30 crowd. Ahmadinejad’s crooked election will prove continually erosive in the long term for what is steadily becoming seen as an out of touch bunch of uptight theocrats mismanaging the country's future and being ridiculosuly regressive in their continuation of absurd policies restricting personal freedoms, especially for women and for the open expression of sexuality.
this is NOT the time for the US to become, through standard conservative cowboy sabre-rattling and islamophobic appeasement of their base, an exterior enemy that the iranian government can use to maintain social control.. conservatives in this country in this day and age are bad at war. they are really, really bad at war. they are bad at managing this stuff. they should not be trusted to do anything but hamstring and intentionally sabotage negotiations with iran that can be potentially very productive for both parties. Tom Cotton should be proof enough of that.
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quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: The speculation on Obama's motivations are often stupid conspiracy theories, but I wouldn't write off everyone who questions why we're trying so hard to negotiate a deal as Islamophobes and racists. There's legitimate discussion to be had there.
We kinda see the most "reasonable" end of this spectrum with Geraine and the "best" is still pretty atrocious and specious in reasoning.
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^^ Pretty much this. A big chunk of young people in Iran are closet atheists, no thanks to the corruption of the religious leaders.
They don't hate the US, though they are quite angry about the CIA-sponsored revolution in the 1950s. They also know that revolutions create huge power vacuums and require a long amount of planning (the whole beaten and murdered by the regime thing requires subtlety).
They are also aware that they cannot trust their own news networks (unlike say, North Korea), though there is a class distinction. If you've seen "A Separation" (it was a bit of a hit a couple of years ago among the crowd who watches subtitled films), this shows up, though you may have missed it. The basic premise is that a couple who is getting divorced hires a poor woman to take care of the man's senile elderly father, after his wife who did all the work leaves home. Then everything goes downhill.
The poor woman finds out on day 2 of the job that the man needs help in the bathroom, and she calls the religious advice hotline for advice on what to do, because helping a strange man in that way is not okay. I think she does help the man, but at the end of the day she asks her employer to hire her husband (who is unemployed) without telling him she worked at this job the past few days. Meanwhile, she's going to go home and tell him she found a lead on a position he should really go apply for.
After the movie, my Iranian friend told me that calling that hotline part was funny, and it's something the character would do because it's the poor who are religious (and aren't in on how corrupt religious leaders are), and woman and her husband are supposed to be trashy.
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: The speculation on Obama's motivations are often stupid conspiracy theories, but I wouldn't write off everyone who questions why we're trying so hard to negotiate a deal as Islamophobes and racists. There's legitimate discussion to be had there.
We kinda see the most "reasonable" end of this spectrum with Geraine and the "best" is still pretty atrocious and specious in reasoning.
That reads an awful lot like the unprovoked and unnecessary personal shot that you've gotten really, really angry about when it's directed at you in the past, Elison.
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I am referring 100% to his argument, not his person. His arguments are *bad* and *are* the most of all reasonable arguments from that side of the debate, I do give credit there; and I'm not referring to some imaginary history, I am referring to what he just argued in a thread that's still on the front page.
His arguments were: -Iran might lose the nuclear weapons/materials (Why?) -Iran is a sponsor of State Terror (So it Israel). -His assertion that the Democrats mostly acted out of 'spite' or some unreasonable motivation to not attend the Prime Minister's speech. -He also does this weird little thing where he suddenly switches gears from his primary concern being "they'll get stolen" (which smacks of concern trolling) to accusing me of saying "Why do you feel Iran getting nuclear weapons is a good idea" which is a fairly large misreading of my argument.
The point is, even when the arguments are at their most reasonable, they still fall short.
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Eh. Next time someone refers to your arguments in that offhand and insulting way and you get angry, well, you'll look sillier.
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Except I actually address the arguments and go over them, I don't mean it to be offhand and insulting, however they are bad arguments, can I not use other words than just 'bad'?
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Does anyone really think there is no significance to the fact that Valerie Jarrett, Obama's chief advisor, was born in Iran?
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My dad was born in the UK. Should I suspect him of trying to return the dominion of Canada to foreign rule?
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I would hope that a President wouldn't have to know someone from a country to want to find alternatives to starting a war with that country.
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To say that the position of Senior Advisor to the President makes her the 'chief' advisor-when it is a position she *shared until a month ago if I'm not mistaken-is an oversimplification.
Also, her parents were both Americans living in Iran at the time of her birth, when it was on much friendlier terms with the United states. They're a doctor and a lawyer I think, or a teacher and a lawyer.
Also, and this is important: one of the most important aspects of America is an idea is that you're allowed to be from somewhere else* and still be an American. You've said any number of stupid, bigoted things in your time here discussing politics and religion, Ron, but I think this insinuation takes the cake. Get the **** out of here with that ignorant, un-American, xenophobic scare-mongering trash. Jackass.
*Which even if it weren't the case, her parents were Americans living abroad. I'll never be able to tell what sort of tripe your brain will cook up, but do Americans living abroad need to consult a ****ing oracle about whether or not that country will be hostile to the United States in sixty years?
God, you're a schmuck.
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I'm happy to be rebuked in moderatorial terms for this post, if anyone would care to. I expressed the reasons why Ron's post was stupid and offensive, and then threw in some merited character attacks as well. Because goddamn.
quote:Does anyone really think there is no significance to the fact that Valerie Jarrett, Obama's chief advisor, was born in Iran?
Ron, I would actually be very interested to hear you say what significance you find in the fact that Valerie Jarrett spent the first four years of her life in Iran, where her parents -- both American natives -- were volunteering to help the pre-revolution (and pro-American) establishment provide medical services to its citizens while constructing new hospitals.
Do you suspect that leaving the country as a toddler as part of the general diaspora of Americans that left when the Islamic faction of that country became louder and more violent somehow predisposed her to sympathize with the current Iranian government? If so, why?
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Also, Ron, do you know any Iranians? At the level where you would go to their house for dinner for time to time*?
As it turns out, Iranians love to complain about their country's politics, which are dysfunctional.
If you listen at all, it doesn't take long before you can understand 1. what Iranians want and 2. evaluate American politicians statements in terms of how much they "get" Iran and know of #1.
And wow... it turns out that most politicians don't know 1 at all. Like there are politicians out there *making things worse*. And it's a scary scary thing. It seems you are listening to the making things worse group.
*Sometimes the other guests of Iranians are even Jews. The Iranian I know best is in physics, so this is inevitable.
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