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Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
The Topic of freewill is touched on during the Ender series, Do you believe in free will?
 
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
 
To a certain extent, yes. I believe we all have choices, I don't think anything (other than perhaps society, friends and family! lol) guides our "daily" (or unimportant) decisions. As to the general direction of our lives, I don't know. Maybe God directs us, maybe he leaves us to our own devices in the hope we will find our own way. And of course a lot of people don't believe in God so maybe it'd be better to suggest a higher power rather than God per se.

I think we probably are guided in some way, just as I think there is an ultimate purpose to life(other than what we may see), that is, we're not just here by chance. JMHO [Smile]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Have you thought about the nature of the choices we make and why we make them?
 
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I agree with what Valentine says about freewill. I presume that's what your referencing in the original post, so I'm not going to type it all out.
 
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
tongue has a point in that the free will can be influenced by a higher power. But if the power is greater than us and influencing us, then it wouldn't be free, really. How could we resist? So I think there are opposing influences (A "lower power"?) To some degree I think it is animal instinct that could be considered the lower power influence. If the lower power is inside us, perhaps the higher power is as well.

So while I believe in a God, I think He is an example. He doesn't have to influence us directly, other than to encourage us to be our best selves, and overcome the bad aspects of our animal selves. We have to have the animal self. I think a successful life is a process of taming the body. If the body is merely imprisoned, it will still be wild when the body and spirit are reunited at resurrection. That's just my 8 cents.

Edit: Though I do believe in the need for a savior. from a theologucal standpoint.

[ June 25, 2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Perhaps we it doesn't have to be a higher power that influences all of our desicions.
 
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
 
Why not? If there's no higher power, does it follow that there's no ultimate point to life?
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
i'm not saying there isn't a higher power, and i'm not saying that one doesn't affect our choices, but does it have to be a higher power that does?

[ June 26, 2003, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Jexxster (Member # 5293) on :
 
I believe that free will is an integral and necessary part of our existence. Even when it works against us, unfortunately.
 
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
 
quote:
I belive that you cannot really control the choices you make. That, when you make choice, that the only one you could make is the one you eventually do make.

Every choice you make, you make for a reason. You interpert a situation and choose according to how you are.

Is it just me or do these two statements contradict each other?
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Either its you, or my inability to convey ideas. No in my mind, they do not contradict each other.

I'm saying that every choice you make, you make for a reason therefore its beyond your control whether you make the choice or not.
 
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
 
Ok. So you don't believe in free will at all?
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
okay
here is an essay that is fairly clear (although i can't guarantee that since its me)
If you have any questions email me at laurenz0_perry@hotmail.com

Introduction

The concept of free will is one that we all know about. If one chooses to take a course of action, they can be held directly responsible. Nothing that suggests otherwise has really been talked about. I propose that perhaps we cannot be held responsible for our actions, our decisions. The choices we make.

Justification

There are many different examples one can use to display my argument. The one that comes up most in discussions is the choice to commit murder. The common thinking is that a when a human being takes the life of another, there is a punishment and the punishment is deserved. I believe that murder deserves sympathy and compassion, as opposed to the hatred that they receive. When a murderer commits the crime, he always thinks that what he is doing will do more good for him than it will bad, no matter what the crime. If someone comes home to find his wife in bed with another man, some may feel so much rage towards this other man that they believe that it is best for them to die. Even if they don’t feel that a few minutes later, they feel it at the time. They commit the crime because it is justified in their mind.

What exactly is insanity?

One may say that, just because its justified in their mind, doesn’t make it right. I agree that while it doesn’t make it right, it also isn’t right to blame the person whose mind it was justified in. When one commits murder, the court will analyze whether one is insane or not. I suggest that everyone who commits murder is just as insane as next. Just in a different way. When one is insane, their is something in their mind that is very different from everybody. So really, if i’m different from you, i could be insane by your standards. Murderers obviously have something very different going on to justify the murder. If they didn’t, and they thought just like those who didn’t commit murder, they wouldn’t commit the crime.

Everyone is made differently

Everyone is made differently, I choose the word made very specifically to incorporate your soul should you believe in that. This is obvious from birth and all the way through life. Some people just have a knack for playing sports, some are naturally good at music. Some are intelligent, some are strong, some are born with diseases etc. There is no denying that every person is created differently. This is leads into seceptabilty. Some people are more seceptable to do certain things than others. Some people are manipulatable, some are strong willed. Those who commit murder were made with the potential to commit murder. Judging by what we have seen with other traits, such as intelligence, some are more likely to commit murder than others. In other words, they were made differently. Insanity? Some people are born into horrible families and are mistreated and grow up to be successful and normal by societies standards. Others grow up to be drug addicts, murders etc. In nearly the exact same situations, there are two very different outcomes because they are two very different people thinking in two very different ways.

As a side note, one sees this commercials on TV for being a coach and “turning a life around.” It shows a child showing up for practice early because (one assumes) he is having problems at home. And it shows him being happy when the coach shows up and the coach being kind to him in return.
What if that coach didn’t come into their lives? Its been realized that a coach can turn a life around therefore they realize that this child could easily become a criminal, but how is it the child's fault if that coach never does come into their lives?

Everything that happens, happens for a reason

Everything that happens happens for a reason, or should I say everything that happens happens because of something else. I was having this discussion with my friends on a bus to Vancouver and they challenged me by saying “if the mountain collapsed and squished this bus, what was the reason for our death.” I looked at him strangely and replied with “um, the reason we died is we have 10 tones of rocks directly over top of us.” He had confused my use of the word reason with a divine reason. If there is a divine reason, it is impossible to know and is moot for this argument. The reason we died is because we had 10 tons of rocks on us.


Every desision one makes, one makes for a reason/interpretation

Every decision a human makes, they make for a reason. No exceptions. The decisions you make are based on your interpretation of things that have happened before. When you interpret something, you draw meaning from it. So one interprets everything little shred of information they receive, even if their interpretation is beyond their control, such as how certain tastes effect you. That's just how you were made. Think back to every simple little choice you have ever made and think if its possible that it wasn’t based on other things. It could be something as simple picking which chocolate bar. Which one is your favorite? Have you found change and new things to be good? Do you like trying new things? The decision you end up making is on you reacted to the chocolate bars in the past. You make your decision based on the meaning you drew from eating chocolate bars or perhaps doing other things new in the past. Interpretation.
What if the decision is random? I don’t think there are such things as random decisions, just decisions that may appear random, even to yourself. The best example of a random decision is perhaps a maze. When one is faced with the possibility of either going left or right, one will either go the way that they think is towards the end, or they will go the way that leads away from the end, depending on how they think. But each choice is made for a reason. The first reason being that that path will lead them to the end, the other is made because they feel that they are being tricked and the less obvious answer is the right one.


Summing up murder
When a a murderer choses to commit murder, he does so for a reason. His interpretation of other things in his life decides the whether he will pull the trigger or not. If he is made seceptable to committing murder, his interperatation of things will be very different than those who do not choose to commit murder and his interpretation will lead to the justification of the crime in his mind. Therefore, a killer cannot be blamed for his actions. So, now what? What do we do now? We cannot make committing murder an incentive for fear of just causing more. I suggest a different, more humanitarian outlook on the punishment of murderers. Perhaps the choice of being locked away for life or the choice to be killed. I don’t know about you, but I would rather be killed than put in a cell for my whole life.

[ June 26, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
yeah so basically, I believe in free will. I just don't think you have any control over it.
 
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
 
Are you saying that we have free will but don't have control of the consequences of our descions?
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
i believe we simply don't have control of the choices we make.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
L,

Can you be more specific? I personally believe we have free will or choice within a particular set of boundaries? What are the boundaries implicit in your question?

flish
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
I believe in free will. I must.

--Steve

(hasn't this particularly dead horse been beaten to death here before? Why do people keep bringing it up? And don't tell me, "free will!")
 
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
Just because a certain decision is not random, that does not mean the individual has not exercised their free will in making it. It does not mean we don't have any control over the decisions we make.

For example, I go to the refrigerator and then to my cabinets and find that there is no food in the house. So I decide to go to the grocery store to restock my kitchen with food. This did not mean that I had no other choice but that. I could also choose to drive down to McDonalds and get a burger and fries. Or I could go to Outback and get prime rib and then have cheesecake with hot caramel sauce for desert (ooh, now there's an idea). I could also choose not to go out to eat, not to restock my kitchen and go on a hunger strike over the high price of food (those dinners at Outback are pretty darn expensive in proportion to my salary). Taken to its extreme, the consequences of this last alternative are awfully dire, but it is an available alternative all the same. It seems to me that I have a great deal of control over which decision I make in this, and in most, situations. My universe of possible decisions in this, as in most situations, is not infinite, to be sure, but it is not predetermined to one specific decision, either.

My feeling is that we do have free will. Further, even if I am wrong, I believe that it is important to go ahead and behave as if it does exist.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
I think this might be one of those "illegal" questions.
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
littilemissatitude
quote:
For example, I go to the refrigerator and then to my cabinets and find that there is no food in the house. So I decide to go to the grocery store to restock my kitchen with food. This did not mean that I had no other choice but that. I could also choose to drive down to McDonalds and get a burger and fries. Or I could go to Outback and get prime rib and then have cheesecake with hot caramel sauce for desert (ooh, now there's an idea). I could also choose not to go out to eat, not to restock my kitchen and go on a hunger strike over the high price of food (those dinners at Outback are pretty darn expensive in proportion to my salary). Taken to its extreme, the consequences of this last alternative are awfully dire, but it is an available alternative all the same. It seems to me that I have a great deal of control over which decision I make in this, and in most, situations. My universe of possible decisions in this, as in most situations, is not infinite, to be sure, but it is not predetermined to one specific decision, either.

But you would have chose each one of your eating options for reason. You could go get groceries because your parents raised you with the belief that giving your money to a huge company should be something to be avoided whenever possible. You could go get a steak because money is not part of the issue and you like steak.

And why is it important to act as if there was when we could be causing unnecessary pain?

[ June 28, 2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
L,

Can you be more specific? I personally believe we have free will or choice within a particular set of boundaries? What are the boundaries implicit in your question?


I don't really understand the question. Perhaps explain your boundries first so I know what your talking about.

Ilegal questions?

[ June 28, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
quote:
You said on the OSC forum freewill "I believe in free will. I must." why
must you when beleiving in it is potentially causing us harm.

Laurence, I believe the whole question of "free will" should be unasked.

All our decisions are based on our own previous knowledge and experience, and external influences (nature, nurture, peer pressures, other pressures). Our decisions are "free" in as much as we chose to acquiesce or fight the external influence. But our decision are otherwise based on our past experiences, and to an extent our natural predispositions. A truly "free" decision would have to be based on nothing, and would therefore be no better than a random selection, and would be pointless to discuss.

--Steve
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Laurence, I just took the time to read your essay, and I find some serious problems with it.

Let's say that I'm poor. Let's also say that I'm not too smart. I know right from wrong, I know how to lead a reasonable life, but I don't like to go to work. I didn't do well in school, and I dropped out. I live with friends in a van, down by the river. I have no job.

It's my week to get groceries for me & the guys, but I have no money. Oh, and I have a gun.

I hide in an alley, and when someone walks buy, I assault them for their cash. They don't have as much as I want, so I shoot and kill them.

Are you saying that I am NOT responsible for my actions? Are you saying that I need compassion, rather than incarceration?

Everyt step along the way, I made decisions based upon who I am physically, and what learning and experiences I have gained. And every step along the way, the universe responded by providing me with typical responses and outcomes to those decisions. I continue to decide and act, and the universe continues to respond.

I finally decide to kill someone. How am I not at fault?

Your essay talks about murder as if it's some theoretical discussion. It's not. If you want to talk about real things, then talk about real things. Real people, real decisions, real actions. Real murder. These things do not happen in some ivory tower vacuum.

For goodness sake, you're here on an Orson Scott Card forum! I think that it's safe to say the reason most of us are here on this forum is because of the way he writes about the way that people make decisions about their actions!

--Steve
 
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
The need to establish boundaries seems to apply to L's slippery slope of individuality, at one end, and insanity on the other. I mean, if everyone is so individual, is it really possible for anyone to ever understand anyone? This, by itself, would make this an illegal (read: unproductive) question to discuss. Your whole premise is that even if we say we agree, we really can't know what the other person meant when they said the thing we thought we were agreeing on.

Also, no one picked up the idea of an opposing force to a higher power. You can only believe in free will if you believe in both. Most people don't believe in the opposite of God, so they are confused about free will.
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
For goodness sake, you're here on an Orson Scott Card forum! I think that it's safe to say the reason most of us are here on this forum is because of the way he writes about the way that people make decisions about their actions!

That would lead me to believe that this a very forum related topic. Besides, I can't think of a better crowd to debate this in.

quote:
I finally decide to kill someone. How am I not at fault?

Well, it all leads back to justification branching into interpretation.

If you chose to kill somebody, somehow the murder would be justified in your mind. I believe it is explained in my essay.

[ June 28, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
quote:
But you would have chose each one of your eating options for reason.
I guess I'm a little confused here. Why would a decision not be under a condition of free will just because you have a reason for choosing that decision? This makes no sense to me. If you have three options to choose from, and two reasons for choosing each option, you still make the choice you make, presuming that no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you which choice to make. Are you saying that for a decision to be made under a condition of free will, it must be made not only not under compulsion but completely randomly?
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Yes by definition you are acting out free will. But really, your just acting out how you(neurons, brain, soul whatever) responded to the taste of each choclate bar.

Or, if you go out and buy a choclate bar that you hate to prove me wrong, you would be buying that because you(neurons, brain, soul) reacted a certain way to this thread.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Pooka,

There is no God. On the brighter side, there is also no Satan. There's just us.

Those of us not mentally challenged ae capable of understanding the consequences of our actions.

If I jump off a cliff, I will fall. (Physical "law")

If I commit murder I will get caught and punished. (societal "law")

If I slice cabbage up really, really thin, add some carrot shreds and then some mayonnaise, I will get a condiment (Coles' law).

Laurence, I don't understand the importance you place on "Justification."

Being able to justify something in your own mind does not make it right--and it most certainly does not remove you from the law of action/consequence.

Just because you might be able to trace a person's actions back to some particular stubed toe when they were 7 months old does not mean that they are incapable of making a choice as an adult.

(I'll get back to this. But the last time I stopped in the middle of a thought and forgot to post, my kids went on to Nintendo.com, and I lost my work)
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
Just because you might be able to trace a person's actions back to some particular stubed toe when they were 7 months old does not mean that they are incapable of making a choice as an adult.

Not incapable of making a choice. But its possible though highly unlikely that they reacted a certain way to stubbing their toe.

Its very easy to say because you probably don't fly on the handle at a stubbed toe(not that I think anyone would).

And secondly, ssywak, how can you possibly claim there is no god?
I would love to hear your flawless logic behind that.

[ June 29, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Laurence,

I would similarly love to hear your flawless logic that the universe is not run by a 27 year old pink unicorn named Maurice.

And I'm still very unclear about your thoughts re. choice, reaction, and justification.

Re. choice (free will)--I have made the case before (and if I could get this site's search engine to work for me, I'd link to it) that free will--as most people refer to it--is an illusion. You are, at this moment, the sum product of your natural/physical self, and all the experiences you have had until now. Your "personality" (or soul, if you would) is not determinate at birth, or predictable. There is too much random chance thrown into a person's life to know how they will turn out. All your decisions are based on this nature/nurture environment as I have described. This sum-total is, in essence, "you."

If "free will" is based on something "other" than this nature/nurture sum-total, then what is it based on? If it is based on something, then is it free? If all your decisions are based on what you are and what you know, then what else contributes to that decision? How is that decision not "bound" by your current "state?" And here's the confounding part: if your choice is not based on your current mental/physical "state" (and when I say "state," I am thinking strongly of "state space" diagrams from my advanced digital servos course), then what is it based on? If that choice is not based on something that is in some way related to "you," then why is it important to call it "free will?" It approaches a randomly generated response.

I believe that a person is, to a large extent, bound by his or her own past. It's a probability thing. A Gaussian curve. The typical response is in the middle of the curve (all curves are unique to all people...continue). There are chances that a person might respond towards one end or the other. If you threaten me with a stick, I am not likely to sing the "Star Spangled Banner". Given a range of typical choices, a person may exercise their free will to select from one of those choices. That choice instructs their next choice and so on down the line.

They have free will, but it is not "free without bounds."

But all your talk of "justification" is meaningless (as I understand the use of the word "justification.") Saying an act is "justified in your own mind" is great, and as far as that goes, correct. But it does not do anything to free a person from the responsibility of their choices.

And if we don't have "free will," and are bound by our past and current chemistry, and all our past experiences, part of those experiences is the experience of cause and effect. If you kill a man, you will (hopefully) get caught, tried, convicted, and sent away.

Let's use this woman who killed a man by running him over and impaling him in her windshield as a case study.

She was totally stoned out of her mind when she hit him. She was afraid that she would get in trouble if she reported the accident. Her actions were all fully justified in her mind.

1) I know you are not going to say she is innocent, right?

2) She chose to take ecstacy, and alcohol, and drive.

3) The guy took about a week to die! After two days, one would think that she would be down from this high.

4) She was a nurses aid. She was, by legal definition, aware of the outcome of her actions: both in taking the drugs, and in leaving the guy in her windshield. (My wife is an attorney, I am a professional engineer. Neither of us is allowed to claim "ignorance" of our actions, certainly not when they pertain to our respective fields of study and practice. This woman is similarly "bound" by her profession)

This woman had multiple opportunities to exercise her "free will" and do the right thing for this man. She repeatedly chose not to.

Your turn, Laurence. Tell me how she was justified in her actions, and need not be held accountable for the choices she made.

Oh, and while you're at it, tell me where God was for the man impaled and dying in her windhield for seven days.

Steve

[ June 29, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
First of all, I cannot say that the universe isn't run by a unicorn named maurice. However, I do not claim to know that it isn't. I have no idea if a god exists or not. I believe one does. But I do not claim to be sure of his existance.

For the record, I am not a christian. I couldn't care less if god exists or not. And where was he when that man was dying on a windshield? I don't know, how am I supposed to answer that? Maybe everything is meaningless or is part of some grand scheme either way, one cannot possibly argue the existance of god.

You misunderstand me. This women is not innocent. She commited a crime.

Never once did I use the word innocent.

However, she is as much responsible for her choice as any other choice anybody ever makes. In my opinion, Not responsible at all.

Okay:

This women clearly thinks differantly from you or I. If she thought the same way, she would not have not done something as terrible as that.

She was made with the capability to commit what I would call murder, otherwise she wouldn't have done it (for all I know we all have the capability to knowingly commit murder)

Somehow somewhere, she thought it was best to leave this man to die. It was justified in her mind as you say.
Now here is where your not putting what I say together, Justification on its own, your quite right, means nothing. However,
I suggest all who commit murder are all "insane" because they think differantly than those who don't.
This women chose to commit murder for a reason, and she clearly thinks very differantly than you or I for whatever reason that may be. Something might have done that in her childhood, or, she could have just been born that way.

[ June 29, 2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Laurence,

I was responding to Pooka's quote:

quote:
Also, no one picked up the idea of an opposing force to a higher power. You can only believe in free will if you believe in both. Most people don't believe in the opposite of God, so they are confused about free will
To which I say "poppycock."

And you're right--try as I might, I cannot seem to develop the supposedly required "flawless logic" which so many theists state is the "requirement" to disprove the supposed existence of God.

But, not only am I 100% positive that the universe is not run by a 27 year old unicorn named Maurice, I am simialrly sure that not only was it was not created by any "God" I've yet heard described, but that no being as such exists. You may certainly call it belief if you wish. All I ask is that if someone (and I'm thinking "Pooka," here) wishes to use the concept of God in a discussion, that they first tell me what it is they're talking about. I've heard so many differing and conflicting descriptions of "God," that I want to make sure I know which one I'm talking about.

Back to you. You state:

quote:
Therefore, a killer cannot be blamed for his actions. So, now what? What do we do now? We cannot make committing murder an incentive for fear of just causing more
First, I would ask you (again) to explan that last sentence. It makes no sense. Perhaps you mis-used the term "incentive?"

Since it appears to be so important to you that a person can never be blamed for his or her actions, then I conclude that you do not believe in free will. If you state that people are not responsible for their actions, then their actions must be outside of their control. Tell me, are we no more than meat-covered automatons? Is every human action always defined by a person's "state diagram" at a given moment in time?

You believe in God, Laurence. If we have no capability to chose our path...to chose redemption over damnation..then why are we here.

I don't believe in God (to be more specific: I believe that there is no God; it's just easier and far more commonplace to state it as I did originally). I don't believe in an everlasting soul. But I do believe that we (as do dogs, dolphins, apes, and many other "higher order" animals) have the capability to weigh the outcomes of our choices and make ("make" is an important word in that sentence--it implies VOLITION) choices and commit those choices to actions.

Am I, an atheist, then a stronger believer in the value of the human "spirit," than you, a believer in God and Soul and Heaven and Hell; of redemption and damnation? It seems as if I somehow have far more hope for this world than do you.

I must admit, maybe I have misinterpreted you. But I think, perhaps, I haven't.

--Steve

[ June 30, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Steve,
I state again, I am not a Christian. I do not believe in the concept of heaven and hell because I don't believe in free will. And as for a soul, I don't know and don't care because we never can know.

Whether things like god exist, we can never hope to know.

For someone who doesn't believe in god, you seem to be quite intent on that we have a purpose here. Why do we have to have a pupose could it be possible that we are just here because we are. Perhaps we are some science experiment and those conducting the experiment are gods or god or whatever.

But why do we have to have a reason to be here. I personally think we are here because we are.

And your right, that sentence made no sense. The point I was trying to make is, we cannot give people an encentive for commiting murder.

[ June 30, 2003, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Well, this stinks. I guess my whole pompous, self-righteous diatribe about atheists being better than theists just goes right down the tubes, then!

I guess I misunderstood your "everything happens for a reason" statement also. And your "ssywak, how can you possibly claim there is no god? I would love to hear your flawless logic behind that" statement.

Mea culpa!

But how dare you [Wink] accuse me of imposing some larger purpose on human lives! I do no such thing. I feel that if there is a purpose to life, we make that purpose ourselves. Since I believe that there is no God, even when religious people claim that they have found their purpose through God, they are still making their own purpose--or allowing someone else to determine that purpose for them.

And again, I apologize most profusely for calling you a theist.

But I still don't understand that sentence. "Encentive" isn't a word.

--Steve

[ June 30, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
incentive (i spelled it correctly the first time), as defined by the webster's new dictionary:
Something that arouses feeling or action.

Yes, incentive is in fact a word. [Wink]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
If anybody else is following this, feel free to jump in at any time.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
"Incentive" is a word (it's synonym is "motive," it's something which incites a person into action)

"Encentive" is not a word.

And your sentence still fails to make and sense.

I guess we're even now, with regard to failing to read each other's posts.

--Steve
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
And your sentence still fails to make and sense.
Come again please [Big Grin]

Actually it makes perfect sense, we cannot give people motives for killing other people.

[ June 30, 2003, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
(Sorry--meant to say "any," not "and")

quote:
We cannot make committing murder an incentive for fear of just causing more
I guess you meant "We can not give people an incentive for committing murder, for fear of causing more"

The phrase "make committing murder an incentive," implies that it is an incentive for something else, unspecified by your sentence. But enough. We're (I'm) getting into the "splitting hairs" category here.
 
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Steve-
I can't prove there is a God. I was just explaining why people who only believe in God and not Satan are always confused about free will. It's possible that for each of us, own own consciousness is the highest power in our own universe.

But I'd be curious to know what your values are that were offended by the choices of the nurses aid. I'm not trying to say you have none, just that I honestly don't know what they would be. You could as easily say I only obey the 10 commandments for a reward in the afterlife. (I'm not admitting this, I'm saying the whole morality of Belief/Atheism is a two sided thing)

L- Justification occurs after the fact. People can try to work out a justification before something actually happens, but the moment of decision occured before the justification began. That's by my understanding of justification. But my definition of it may be too specialized to be harmonized with yours.
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
L- Justification occurs after the fact. People can try to work out a justification before something actually happens, but the moment of decision occured before the justification began. That's by my understanding of justification. But my definition of it may be too specialized to be harmonized with yours.

I disagree, in fact, many times something that was justified before the act, is no longer justified after the act.

Whenver you do something its always justified even if you havn't thought about it.

For example, if someone kills someone after they find them in bed with their spouse. Well, this person felt that the best thing to do would be to kill the man in bed with his spouse so that they would feel better.

Afterwards, I suspect, is a differant story.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
L,

"illegal questions"

It's possible to formulate questions that have no answer. They can't be proven. It becomes pointless
to argue in, about, or around them using any sort of logic.

How about starting off with the idea the freewill is a hypothesis? Maybe people think they have freewill. Define what that is and then pose a test to determine whether it exists or not. can you do that?

any ideas?

(I agree with one poster that this is a dead horse, but I think this type of exploration is necessary and should be repeated)

flish
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
I was actually thinking of trying to make a test, however, I would have to have a better understanding of the human mind than the best physcologist and the best brain surgeon in the world combined.

I don't agree that this is an illegal question because all none of my ideas are just based on faith, they are based on commen sense.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
L,

I wasn't thinking of anything related to faith. Lemme get my thoughts out of Goedel (because I can't articulate them well).

Here's a different approach. Before assailing the free-will question, how about answering these.

What is the nature of the universe? Is it deterministic or not?

Are human beings (including their minds) part of that universe or not?

(personally I object to a negative answer to the second one, and I'd be super interested in any answer to the first).

flish
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Is it just me, or are those questions illegal? i don;t see how anybody could back up points for any of those questions.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
L,

I think many belief systems, including general mainstream thought (regardless of faith or science) include a dualism of mind/body, or natural/supernatural.

re: whether the universe is deterministic? depends on your interpretation/understanding of modern physics and/or your subscription to a religion.

flish
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
One cannot argue religion. Topics about faith are illegal.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
[Smile]

Remove any refs to religion or faith from my questions and we'll get on to answering yours.

flish
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Pooka,

quote:
people who only believe in God and not Satan are always confused about free will.
Oh, you mean the Jews!

Ye gads! Or, should I say, "Oy vey!"

Sorry, hon, I really don't think that Jewish people are any more confused about Free Will than any other religious or ethnic group.

Filleted--why must we state the the universe is entirely one way or the other? For the most part--certainly on a "macro" scale, on a human-sized physical scale--it is deterministic. On a micro scale--the scale of particles that can be affected by the random aspects of quantum mechanics, it is non-deterministic.

Wait--with certain chaotic "macro" systems (such as the weather), we believe the world to be non-deterministic.

But the problem is that as "ordered" as things are (we believe the larger universe to follow strict physical laws--we're just not sure what all of them are yet), there is always the possibility of an unexpected ocurrence. Some random meteor rock can swing through amd just plain mess things up.

And people--we're not really the "rational" beings that the philosophers make us out to be. Were not as deterministic as we think we are. Our subconscious minds well up and overwhelm our rational thoughts all the time (well, not "all" the time--lots of times)

It's all somewhat deterministic. But does that really help?

BTW, human minds are, of course, part of the universe.

--Steve

[ July 02, 2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
*looks around for headlights and cowcatchers*

urrr...

quote:
why must we state the univerise is entirely one way or the other? For the most part--certainly on a "macro" scale, on a human-sized physical scale -- it's deterministic. On a micro-scale--the scale of particles that can be affected by the random aspects of quantum mechanics, it is non-determinstic
wow.

*takes a moment to recompose self*

1. Ok, but why are you introducing this disparity between micro and macro? Got any ideas for how to patch it up?

flish
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Filleted,

Yes, I do! And, for only $19.95, those answers can be yours as well!

In truth--no I don't. Not yet, at least [Smile]
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
*writes out check to steve*

HEY! That's the second check I've written out here in one week. I thought HR didn't have any hidden fees!

Steve,

Determinism isn't rationalism. Yes, philosophers and economists alike commonly assume that people are rational. Irrationality could certainly be deterministic.

Determinism isn't predictability. Chaos isn't predictable but it IS deterministic (at least the models from which the term is derived are deterministic)

flish
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Someone asked me to come up with a test of freewill. Okay here it is.

Think of something you believe in extremely strongly. Now try as hard as you can, without thinking about new information, to change your opinion about it.

Can you do it?

The answer is no. You are simply going my the morals you have aquired somewhere or somehow. You have to to believe in it because there is no other option. You don't choose to believe in it, you want to.

No matter how hard you try you can't think its a good thing for the person you love most dearly in the world to be shot dead.

No matter how hard you try you can't think of the holocaust as being the savior of our race.

You don't choose your opinions and actions, you have to make a certain choice because of how you are.

[ July 07, 2003, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Hushidh (Member # 3511) on :
 
Hmm, free will.

What exactly *is* free will, anyway? That we are able to make any choice we wish? That everything is not predestined?

If you look at things from a fixed point of view, people are shaped only by their genes and by their experiences. Given this, a person will act in one way, and in one way only. People react differently to the same situation, but they've had different experiences before this that influenced their current behavior, and underneath all of that are influenced by their genes and the things inherited or randomly given to them by nature. All of these combinations create a unique person who will react in a unique way to each situation, but if one was given an infinite amount of time, knowledge, and resources, (essentially, if one was God) they could map out that person's entire life, and the lives of everyone. In that sense, everything is predestined and fated to be as it is, because none of us would make a different decision from the ones we have in the past unless we had recieved different information.

However, it is essential that we believe in free will and act as if it is true. The choices we make we must take responsibility for. No matter what I believe about the ultimate reality of free will, I still know that I have control over what I do and that I need to take responsibility for my own actions.

Seems contradictory, but for me it is complementary. Actually, my entire argument, now that I think about it, seems remarkably similar to something discussed in one of Card's books... possibly Xenocide?

By the way... hi everyone [Smile] I'm new... at least I don't *think* I've posted before... or if I have, it was a long time ago.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
L0 (I'm not sure about your test, but I appreciate you
taking the time to think about it)

The most interesting question I've come across in this thread is this issue of responsibility.

If we don't have freewill, if we are destined (aeons ago... yay since the origin of the universe itself) to act in a particular manner, to choose one way or another, consciously or unconsciously, informed of the ultimate consquences of those choices or not, at every split-second blink of an eye, how is anyone responsible for anything?

flish
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
quote:
Determinism isn't predictability. Chaos isn't predictable but it IS deterministic
I thought that chaos is deterministic, but only in a probabilistic sense.

BTW, I have still not received your check. It may be simpler just to cancel it and to Paypal me the $19.95. But, you'll have to promise not to tell anyone else the answer, or else Hank will have to come over there and beat the &%$#^% out of you.

--Steve
 
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
 
I'm feeling bored and cranky. Send Hank over to my house.
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Hushidh,
First of all welcome [Smile] and secondly, did you actually read this forum and my essay and such because you just exactly stated my theories on freewill(very impressive if you didn't read it), however I don't believe its essential that we believe freewill exists because in some cases, I don't think we should take responsibility for our actions.

I have a problem with are justice system and the thinking of media and public. We brand those who commit crimes as monsters and horrible people, but if i'm right, then I think the public thinking needs to change at the very least. Perhaps not punishment, but public thinking.

[ July 07, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
how is anyone responsible for anything?

Good question. It really depends what you mean by responsible.

If you say, jimmy is responsible for knocking over the lamp than yes, jimmy was responsible for knocking over the lamp (if he in fact did knock over the lamp).

Jimmy, however, was just in the wrong place at the wrong time to knock over that lamp. But he still knocked it over and it makes most sense for him to pick up the pieces.

On another note, just because we have no free will doesn't mean everything is pre determined. Things like how you will be born are, as far as i can tell, up to chance. I think if you say things are all pre-determined its more of a faith thing.

[ July 07, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
I'm really waiting for Hushidh to reply since i've never heard anybody except for myself think like that, even after 12 hours on the bus constant arguing.
 
Posted by Hushidh (Member # 3511) on :
 
I skimmed through the topic before replying, but those are the thoughts I've had about free will for years now.

As for the criminals thing, I actually think it's the opposite, I think many criminals are viewed in a light that absolves them of any personal responsibility.

Ironic in a forum about OSC, but a quote from Dean Koontz sums it up for me.

"'These days, if your life is screwed up, if you've failed your family and friends, it's never your fault. You're a drunkard? Why, maybe it's a genetic predisposition. You're a compulsive adulterer, have a hundred sex partners a year? Well, maybe you just never felt loved as a child, maybe your parents never gave you all the cuddling you needed... You just blew some shopkeeper's head off or beat some old lady to death for twenty bucks? Why, you're not a bad guy, no, you're not to blame! Your parents are to blame, your teachers are to blame, society is to blame, all of Western culture is to blame, but not you, never you, how crass to suggest such a thing, how insensitive, how hopelessly old-fashioned... You can walk out on your wife and kids without paying child support, bilk your investors out of millions, beat some guy's brains to jelly because he's gay or he showed you disrespect... drop your baby in a garbage dumpster because you had second thoughts about the joys of motherhood... cheat on your taxes, defraud the welfare... sell drugs to grade-school kids... abuse your own daughter, and still claim your the victim. Everyone's a victim these days. No one's a victimizer. No matter what atrocity you commit, you can stake a claim for sympathy, moan about being a victim of racism, reverse racism, sexism, ageism, classism, prejudice against fat people, ugly people, dumb people, smart people. That's why you robbed the bank or blew away that cop, because you're a victim, there're a million ways to be a victim. Yeah, sure, you devalue the honest complaints of real victims, but what the hell, we only go around once, might as well get your piece of the action, and who cares about those real victims anyway, for God's sake, they're losers.'"

Essentially I think people can change and do change for the better (or worse), and when they do that means they would inevitably have changed just at that moment, but it doesn't make that change any less significant. Only on "God's" level can we really say that free will is nonexistant, because we still have the power to make choices that affect our lives.
 
Posted by Hushidh (Member # 3511) on :
 
... On the other hand, one reason I love Ender's Game so much is that I tend to understand people, why they do what they do, and I can't hate them for it. I relate to Ender on that level. But I also recognize that just because they had their reasons doesn't make them any less responsible for what they did.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Laurenz0,

quote:
We brand those who commit crimes as monsters and horrible people
Not always. We brand people who commit horrible crimes as monsters and horrible people.

A question: why is it so important to you that people not be responsible for their actions? Have you done something you're ashamed of?

Have you...killed...someone?

Typically, you don't find poor people lobbying for tax breaks; you don't find straight-laced businessmen lobbying for the decriminalization of marijuana; and you don't find teetotalers pushing for the repeal of the liquor tax.

Why are you so interested in creating a social/political environment where no one is responsible for their actions?

Personally, I would feel horribly unsafe in that environment. Please search for your forgiveness somewhere else, and stop trying to absolve murderers of their responsibility to themselves and to society.

--Steve
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Of course i've done things i'm ashamed of, if you havn't then i'd have to say your living up to your ideals very well. Impossibly well.

Have I killed anybody, god no! I'm 15, I don't even have any enemies.

I believe very strongly in this and I feel for those people in positions like that. The reality is that they are danger to society and need to be seperated. However, it doesn't do anybody any harm and will probably do a lot of good to forgive these people.

I guess I'm naive in thinking we can take responsibility in some cases and not in others.

True, my ideas probably wouldn't work. The system would get abused heavily.

[ July 08, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Laurenz0 ]
 
Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
Motivations. Thats really what dictates everything. The discussion of free will and responsibility fall under the discrimination of motivations. Unfortunately I might sound insane because i'm saying this, but murders are usually crimes of passion. Most murders are one-time killers, killing people in "the heat of the moment." Granted, they are still murderers. What seperates the general public from those people is that the general public can substatially refrian from those "heat of the moment" murders. Others are just sick, mentally. Then you get to that quote up there by Koontz for all the reasons...

I believe that we have free will. That free will creates chance, which in some remote instances can have longterm effects of predetermined life The "Domino effect".
I believe if you are the one who caused the bullet to enter that persons body (The one who pulled the trigger) you are responsible. But there are many levels of responsibility. The Getaway driver. The parents. The kids who picked on him/her to drive him/her to do that. We are all fragile, but different circumstances get us to do different things.

Some criminals are monsters. But who are we to make any judgements about another persons life and who they are and what they've done. never can we really understand all the motivations a person has because sometimes we can't even understand our own.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
quote:
Some criminals are monsters. But who are we to make any judgements about another persons life and who they are and what they've done. never can we really understand all the motivations a person has because sometimes we can't even understand our own.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I always make judgements about other people's lives, and who they are, and what they've done. Especially if they commit criminal acts. My need for self preservation (and the need to preserve the health and well being of my family) seeks to take criminals out of circulation--the worse the crime, the longer the period of incarceration desirable (though it's not like I put on a cape and spandex tights, or anything like that. Not for those reasons, at least...).

I really don't care about a murderer's "motiviation," my goal is to remove them from a position where they may threaten me or my family. If they are sane/responsible, then they go to jail. If they are insane/irresponsible, then they go to an institution. Either way, they're out of the picture.

I know that I am responsible for my own actions. I don't care one way or another if you feel like you are responsible for your own actions or not--in my world, you get treated as if you are.

'Nuff said.

--Steve
 
Posted by Hushidh (Member # 3511) on :
 
quote:
I really don't care about a murderer's "motiviation," my goal is to remove them from a position where they may threaten me or my family. If they are sane/responsible, then they go to jail. If they are insane/irresponsible, then they go to an institution. Either way, they're out of the picture.
Touche, ssywak .

quote:
Typically, you don't find poor people lobbying for tax breaks; you don't find straight-laced businessmen lobbying for the decriminalization of marijuana; and you don't find teetotalers pushing for the repeal of the liquor tax.
Here I must disagree with you. There are many people out there, responsible hardworking people, who push for those things, because they believe that these things will actually better society. I happen to be one of those people. But this is off topic, so I'll stop now [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
quote:
I really don't care about a murderer's "motiviation," my goal is to remove them from a position where they may threaten me or my family. If they are sane/responsible, then they go to jail. If they are insane/irresponsible, then they go to an institution. Either way, they're out of the picture.
Two things:

First of all, fair enough. Of course you want these people away from you and your family. Did I ever say otherwise? But how on earth would it hurt to you to say that these people are clearly differant from you and you don't understand them therefore you can't brand them as monsters.

Secondly, where do you draw the line between insane and sane. If people commit murder they are clearly thinking very differantly from you or I.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Laurenz0,

Back to that nurse's aid who kept a man dying in the windshield of her car for 5-7 days...

I'll brand her a monster, and I'll stick by that decision.

She's clearly different from me.

I cannot for the life of me understand just what was going through her head for an entire week, that she didn't do something to help this poor man.

And she's a monster.

There. You're wrong and I'm right.

Hushidh,
Well, maybe I shouldn't have used the "tax breaks" reference...(no offense, but I still can't imagine cases 2 and 3)
 
Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
I agree that in the matter of safety and protection of your family that it is necessary to make decisions and judgements about people and acts. But I also believe this to be a cop out. So, are you saying that in light of the fact that you have a family you are then able to make judgements about another person? How can any of us possibly justify our ability to make fair judgements about someone else because of one act?

What about all of the innocent people in the justice system? Are they all monsters because the state has branded them that way? I believe you to be a very short-sighted person if you take any evidence given to you and immediately believe it to be truth.

Granted, I agree that responsibility lies with someone. The agressor IS responsible. But if we cannot find an agressor, then the next best thing has to do? Why do you base all your judgemnets on third party information?

I have judgements about people too. My point was not that we do not mae judgements about people and their behavior, but who are we to make those judgements when we cannot even begin to fathom enough information to justify those judgements.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Adeimantus,

I never said I made "fair judgements." I only said I made "judgements."

If I see a person acting in a way that I feel will threaten my family, I seek to keep that person separated from my family. So far, it's never been all that much more complicated than locking the car doors if we drive through a depressed neighborhood.

quote:
I believe you to be a short-sighted person if you take any evidence given to you and immediately believe it to be truth
You mean, like the alleged existence of a supernatural diety? Great gravy, Adeimantus, you hardly know me and already you are judging me to be "short sighted."

And since when did I say "all"? I chose one case. Was I wrong about that case?

No.

I don't think that every person I see that makes me nervous for my own safety should be locked up--not even if our government or legal system declares that person to be a "monster." If I'm walking down a street at night, and feel that someone is following me, I'll seek safety. I will not call the police and have them arrested.

quote:
who are we to make those judgements when we cannot even begin to fathom enough information to justify those judgements?
We are the living. We are the survivors (no singing!). I don't have to justify most of my judgements. If I judge someone wrong (that person following me was going to return the $20 I dropped at the corner), but I am better off for it (no, actually they were going to mug me and stab me in the chest), then that's all the justification I need.

If I am going to "actively" judge someone (send them to jail, for instance), then you're right--I need a heck of a lot of good evidence, and heresay is unacceptable.

And now, you've judged me based on what? Five minutes of reading some of my scattered posts? Well at least I'm not so schizophrenic as to both make judgements, while at the same time decrying the fairness of making any judgements at all.

Not that I'm making any judgements, mind you.

P.S. Have we derailed this thread enough? It's not about judging others, after all. To be honest, it's not necessarily about "responsibility," either. It's about free will.
 
Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
I concede. You have caught me in my own trap. Though, since I have already made some judgements I will continue. You seem to me to be very insecure in your surroundings. Granted I live in a small town, but I have never experienced this kind of fear of the outside and the unknown. Now I made these judgements based on all the evidence that I have access to...this site.

EDIT>just for the record I said you were short-sighted if you believe that. That, I dont believe is a judgement, but a belief I have of everyone who should feel that why. That judgement is then fair based on the fact that I am only judging that person to be short-sighted in that specific sense and I have evidence to back it up.

But like you said, back to the original topic at hand. Free will.

[ July 08, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Adeimantus ]
 
Posted by Hushidh (Member # 3511) on :
 
quote:
Well, maybe I shouldn't have used the "tax breaks" reference...(no offense, but I still can't imagine cases 2 and 3)
Case 2: Straight laced businessman lobbying for decriminalization of marijuana.

I happen to know many such people... you'd be surprised.

Case 3: Teetotaler pushing for the repeal of the liquor tax.

Teetotaler - someone who abstains from alcoholic beverage. I am, in fact, a teetotaler. And I believe strongly that the repeal of liquor taxes and many other taxes would be beneficial for society.

In that last respect, I would admit that I am a minority. There are not many teetotalers that I know of, not even among the underaged. But the second case, ahh well, there are many straight laced libertarian businessmen.

But I'm quibbling on irrelivant points to the topic. At any rate, even if you do not believe, my beliefs do not require that you believe. Bonus points to whomever recognizes the quote. [Wink]
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Ade,

I live about an hour north of New York City. Before that, I lived in Queens for 3 years (I had one car stolen, and two additional break-ins)

I've also done some work in NYC, including some way-too-late at night. I've never been mugged, though I know some people who have been.

I've earned the right to be paranoid.

And you're right: you were only conditionally judgemental. [Wink]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
No one has answered my question. Why do we have to still brand criminals and rapist and murderers and such as monsters when they are locked away. What good does it do anybody to hate these people? They are away from you and your family, what stops us from forgiving them?
 
Posted by Hushidh (Member # 3511) on :
 
quote:
No one has answered my question. Why do we have to still brand criminals and rapist and murderers and such as monsters when they are locked away. What good does it do anybody to hate these people? They are away from you and your family, what stops us from forgiving them?
Perhaps this is true, that hate does nothing good. But forgiveness is an individual thing; nothing that any one person says or does will make everyone feel the same way about something. You can say that you personally don't hate them, and that is fine. But people will hate because they need to blame all the problems of the world on someone, or because maybe someone they love had something horrible done to them. They may or may not be justified in hating, and that hate may or may not have geniune use to society; I don't have those answers. But just wishing that they wouldn't won't stop it from happening.

On a completely unrelated note... I turn 20 in about an hour from now! [Big Grin] Sorry, just felt the need to shout it out loud somewhere! *dances*
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
the models of chaos are deterministic, not probabilistic.
 
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
 
Filleted,

Pardon my ignorance, but I imagined that descriptive equations of chaos would, by necessity, have to involve probabilistic attributes.

Equations = determinism

Probability = unpredictability

Or, is chaos always predictable? (I'm sorry--I keep picturing Jeff Goldblum in the Jeep in Jurassic Park...)

--Steve

PS Happy Birthday, Hushidh!

[ July 10, 2003, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: ssywak ]
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Steve,

It might be analogous to the "halting problem". A computer code can be deterministic, yet predicting whether it will halt or not might be impossible.

Some of the models of chaos are built on very simple deterministic rules, but give rise to exponentially divergent behavior. They are deterministic, but not predictable.

I haven't read Wolfram's book, but I gather he covers some of these same ideas with his cellular automata. Simple deterministic rules can easily give rise to apparently random and unpredictable behavior.

flish
 
Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 
Just thought I'd throw a wrench in the conversation. I do not believe there is Free Will, Free Choice, Free Agency, or whatever you would like to call it. You see, it's the word Free that I have a problem with. All choices we make come with a price, whether for good or for bad, so they are not free. We still have a consequence for every choice, but it can be a positive consequence or a negative one. There is always a price, so nothing is Free. I know this isn't the direction you wanted to go with this thread, but the wording Free Will has always bothered me for this reason.

[ July 12, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: UTAH ]
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
Sorry i havn't been replying guys, been way for 5 days.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
Utah,

You are imposing some kind of scoring system?

flish
 
Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 
I'm not sure what you mean by a scoring system, but no, I'm not imposing anything. I believe that's just the way life is. You make a choice, you have a consequence. The consequence means that you have paid a price for your choice. The price can be a positive outcome or a negative outcome, but it is still a price and not free.
 
Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
Utah, so we have a fee will? haha, i made a funny. Get it, fee...ok nm. I believe in your statement of consequences and paying a price for our choices, whether good or bad. I don't beieve that changes the interpretation of "Free" will. Our will does not have a price, if you get my metaphor. A free will in thi sense is an unbinded will a "nonpredeterministic" will, if you follow me. Yeah i think i made that word up. NEway. Thats my take.
 
Posted by filetted (Member # 5048) on :
 
"fee will"

*snort*

I like nonpredeterministic. non(un)predictable yet determined. nice!

flish
 
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
I always thought that there was a sort of key to free will. Your emotions are your emotions, shaped and triggered by events in your past, and you can't choose them to simply not exist, but the true choice is whether or not you choose to let your actions be affected by those emotions. That sounds pretty trite and too, well, ignorant, but I guess that's my idea. The emotions are the uncontrollable aspect of human existence. Letting them walk all over you and control your actions by, say, hitting your wife or being stubborn for no reason is just unintelligent.

I think we have to believe in free will, whether we agree with it rationally or not. Maybe it's accepting an illusion, maybe it's not, but I think we have to understand that in order to get through mundane day to day life without profoundly annoying our good friends with our constant moping.
 
Posted by Laurenz0 (Member # 5336) on :
 
I disagree book. I don't believe in free will and I don;t act any differantly in any day life. Its really impossible to. I suggest we only change it where it matteres. If you did in fact read this thread and know my theories on free will.
 
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Nope. Sure didn't. [Wink]
 


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