This is topic I read The Crystal City, and now have questions. in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Far (Member # 5944) on :
 
Hi, There might be some spoilers below. . .

I just bought The Crystal City last night, and finished it this evening. I really enjoyed it, as I did the first five in the Alvin series. Perhaps I read it too quickly, but I have a few questions about this book, that I thought I could have answered here.

Firstly, I don't have Heartfire with me, as I leant it to my younger brother, or I would check for sure, but for some reason, I thought that Alvin and Margaret's first child (the one that died) was a girl. I'm not sure what in Heartfire led me to believe this, but I felt surprised in Crystal City when Alvin refered to the baby as a boy. Am I crazy?

Next, in the last chaper of The Crystal City, we are finally reintroduced to Purity. I can't help but wonder why she was barely mentioned, after so much trouble was taken because of her earlier. In heartfire she seemed important enough for Alvin and company to risk quite a lot for her, and in The Crystal City, maybe two mentions. And most bothersom, I remember Verily being most smitten with her, and now he "hardly noticed she was there". What am I to assume happened? Or did I miss something?

Also, Verily seems much more pessimistic then he ever used to. And at one point, when thinking to himself, stated that Alvin "unchose" him as a traveling companion. hmmm. I wonder what that was about?

How much time passed since the events in Heartfire? And how old exactly is Arthur Stuart, now? I would look it up, but I don't have any of the prequels here for reference.

Also, in the acknowledgments, OSC wrote, "If I could have George Washington beheaded in the first volume and have Alvin dream dream the plot of 'Lord of the Rings'..." I can't recall any Lord of the Rings reference. But I'm really curious, when did Alvin dream this??

Like I said, I read the whole book today, so probably in my excitment I skipped over something important. But it was quicker to post here than to re-read the whole thing again tonight. I think I'll wait til tomorrow to re-read it. Thank you for your thoughts.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 

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thought that Alvin and Margaret's first child (the one that died) was a girl.

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Yes, and thanks for bringing it up. Those of us who were allowed to "proof read" it feel horrible.

Also, If I'm not mistaken, since Heartfire, there were two short stories. One was Grinning Man and the other was Yahoo Queen and I believe there will be a third short story called White Prophet. Some of your other questions may be answered there. From OSC,

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The Crystal City in Tennizy will eventually be the third "between" story that will allow Grinning Man, Yazoo Queen, and White Prophet (working title) to be published as one book between Heartfire and Crystal City.

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First of all "Far"...

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Card: I just finished writing The Crystal City, the sixth novel, which will be published in November. There will be one more after it, called Master Alvin. I have also written a couple of standalone Alvin stories for the Legends anthologies. The first one, "Grinning Man," in which Alvin meets Davy Crockett, was in Legends I, and the new one, "Yazoo Queen," in which Alvin meets both Jim Bowie and Abe Lincoln on a trip down the Mizzippy River, will be in Legends II [both edited by Robert Silverberg].

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http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue328/interview.html
 

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Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
I didn't think the plot was rushed, so much as less complex. Everything felt more streamlined than usual--no trips to sisters houses to have lunch, no dabbling around in the minds and hearts of characters who dissapear after a couple of chapters, just a straightforward pair of trips from Nueva Barcelona to a volcano and a spring.

I'm sure he was trying hard for that--it could easily have become the most convoluted, considering that it involved just about every character from the entire series, plus a couple of new ones. It could easily have become a boggy mess.
 

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Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
 
Sounds like OSC needs some new proofreaders. Ahem. <-- very nearly passed the civil service entrance examination

p.s. you may want to check the Walking on Water thread, it seems we deduced the time lapse was six years.

[ November 21, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: skrika03 ]
 

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Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
 
But I have legends II and OSC's not even in it.

Edit: Sorry. Just checked, got Legends III

[ November 21, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Black Mage ]
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
The original Legends anthology was split into multiple paperbacks, I believe. When people talk about a new Alvin short story coming out in Legends II, they're talking about an entirely new collection. "The Grinning Man" was in the first anthology, and a new Alvin short story will be in the second.
 

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Posted by oycetheoyster (Member # 5971) on :
 
I got the book yesterday, and I just finished the book today and decided to read the forum. That book is so addicting, so I didn't get a chance to write my essay for AP Literature. Whoops. This is my first post, and I remember having the exact same questions that were brought up. I even read the sentences twice to make sure I wasn't wrong. hahahaa.
 

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Posted by pwiscombe (Member # 181) on :
 
Is there a definative list of what short stories should be read in what order to get the whole story between Heartfire and Crystal City? When I read the online chapters, I felt like I had missed an entire novel. I'm putting off reading Crystal City until I get the in-between story read, but I'm not sure where to start.
 

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Posted by roxy (Member # 3416) on :
 
Okay, hold on ...
Where do I find these short stories? I finished Crystal City a few days ago, and I missed a LOT. I figured I just forgot, because it's been over a year since I've read the prequels, but apparently not. So, where do I get them?
 

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Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
 
The referance to The Lord of the Rings in Heartfire was in the verse of the song Alvin sang in prison. I do not have the book with me but I think it was something like

I dreamed the strangest dream
of little men (Hobbits)
Something about spiders (Shelob)
and an evil ring (the One Ring)
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
A question of mine . . . in Crystal City, several different characters (including Lolla-Wossiky) refer to Alvin curing Lolla-Wossiky's bad eye. But as I recall, he specifically was not able to cure his eye, just the liquor-craving. Did I miss something?

-Icarus, who was not one of the Hatrack Proofreaders
 

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Posted by hailar (Member # 6046) on :
 
Well, I for one think that it stinks that I now have a new book, Crystal City, that is not a follow on from Heartfire.

Instead, it is shot through with hints about untold stories. Stories that I have to buy three more books in order to find out about.

Quite the scam
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*shrug* I haven't read the shorts, and I had little problem getting into Crystal City. But hey, YMMV.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

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Firstly, I don't have Heartfire with me, as I leant it to my younger brother, or I would check for sure, but for some reason, I thought that Alvin and Margaret's first child (the one that died) was a girl. I'm not sure what in Heartfire led me to believe this, but I felt surprised in Crystal City when Alvin refered to the baby as a boy. Am I crazy?

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Since I was obviously, significantly responsible for this mistake, I've gone through the book and looked and can't find anywhere that refers to the previous child's gender at all. If you're still reading, can you tell us where this was?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by DeathOfMosquitoes (Member # 4677) on :
 
Back in February, when I registered this name to cheese off DeathOfBees, I had no idea how fitting it would become.

[ December 24, 2003, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: DeathOfMosquitoes ]
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
 
Hobbes, are you gonna be the one to collect these things and send them to the Cards again? You know, the skill that earned you "most dedicated" as a title? *wink*

On page 179, Margaret says "him" in reference to the first pregnancy. Everything else I could find was gender-neutral.

--Pop
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I told the Cards you were the most dedicated, don't blame me!

I suggest just sending that to Kristine .

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Megakeen (Member # 6047) on :
 
Hi, I'm new. I reread Alvin Journeyman today and the possible LOTR reference is a song Alvin sang to the same tune as one he wrote about being in jail. It goes:

Alone in my imaginings,
I dreamt the darkest dream.
Of tiny men, a spider's sting,
And in a land of smoke and steam,
An evil golden ring.

If thats not it exactly its very close.

(No offense intended to Bean Counter, I just wanted to include a more exact version)

[ December 24, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Megakeen ]
 

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Posted by hailar (Member # 6046) on :
 
My real gripe is not that there are short stories about the Alvin characters, but that the stories are important to the overall story. For instance, one of the pivitol moments in Crystal City is Alvin, of all people, refusing to let Jim Bowie live there. But, nothing in any of the Alvin's six books gives us any reason why not. We never meet Jim before CC and nothing in CC gives Alvin a reason to refuse him admittance to the city. The reason must be in one of the short stories.

This is a terrible way to go about business.

I can just imagin what Taleswapper would say about this kind of storytelling
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 

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I can just imagin what Taleswapper would say about this kind of storytelling

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nothing in CC gives Alvin a reason to refuse him admittance to the city

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Nick,

Who better to argue the storytelling flaw????

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You're using Taleswapper to criticize the very story that he is a part of. That's kind of a contradiction. . .
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
Re: Jim Bowie...

I am on chapter 11 (got it this morning as a Christmas gift )and now reading this thread I understand why I was a bit confused by Abe Lincoln and Coz and Jim Bowie. I'll have to get these short stories. It threw me since I read Heartfire just a few months ago in preparation for CC.

But even having missed the story about Jim Bowie it is quite obvious something happened that makes Alvin distrust and dislike Bowie. Alvin makes his dislike known quite strongly, though the reasoning isn't clear without the short story I suppose.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 

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I've gone through the book and looked and can't find anywhere that refers to the previous child's gender at all. If you're still reading, can you tell us where this was?

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What neither of them said, because both of them knew that they both knew, was that there was a child growing already in Margaret's womb; a girl. Each of them could calculate nine months as well as the other.

"Where will you be next August?" asked Alvin.

"Wherever I am, I'll make quite sure you know about it."

"And wherever you are, I'll make quite sure I'm there."

"I think the name should be Becca," said Peggy.

"I was thinking to call her after you. Call her Little Peggy."

Peggy smiled. "Becca Margaret, then?"

Alvin smiled back, and kissed her. "People talk about fools counting chickens before they hatch. That's nothing. We name them."

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[ December 26, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
 
I thought we were looking for the erroneous reference to a boy in The Crystal City, not the reference to a girl from the previous novels. Most of the references in TCC are not gender-specific -- I could only find the one. I sorta assumed there were lots of references in Heartfire to it being a girl. Near the beginning of chapter 7 ("firstborn daughter," "developing daughter"), for example.

Anyway, it's a contradiction, and it's one we should have caught. We all feel bad, and I'm prepared to ask OSC to remove all of us from the acknowledgements because of it. Well, except for me.

--Pop
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Future editions will feature Papa Goose, I'm sure. Moose
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
You mean I typed that whole thing for nothing?

Oh well, 'twas kinda fun. *shrug*
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I didn't have a problem with The Crystal City and understanding Alvin's attitude towards Jim Bowie, as it was made clear pretty quickly what sort of man Bowie was.
I'm in the middle of reading the 2nd short story now, though, and it does make the transition smoother.
 

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Posted by pwiscombe (Member # 181) on :
 
REPOST:
Is there a definative list of what short stories should be read in what order to get the whole story between Heartfire and Crystal City? When I read the online chapters, I felt like I had missed an entire novel. I'm putting off reading Crystal City until I get the in-between story read, but I'm not sure where to start.

Anyone ever come up with an answer to this?

I have Legends 1 (Grinning Man) and while it is a good short story, it didn't fill any of the gaps that are between Heartfire and Crystal City. Are they ALL answered in Legends 2?

Gaps: Lincoln Bowie, Baby, Arthur Stuart gaining some pretty good makering skills.
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Can someone remind me what happened to make Mike Fink bad instead of good? I didn't reread the books in preparation, so I didn't remember a lot, but that was the only thing that really threw me.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
You thought he was bad? Seems to me he was good, just worried about Alvin. ...Assuming we're still talking about Crystal City here...

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
"Yazoo Queen" (in Legends II) is where Alvin and Arthur Stuart meet Jim Bowie, Abe Lincoln, Cuz, and where Arthur Stuart's makering skills come into play.
 

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