I see the stance of the Starways Congress in Xenocide that the Piggies not be helped or interfered with to be a criticism of the Star Trek 'Prime Directive' which 'Q' and others have hinted at being nothing more then moral cowardice.
It is clear that the one is an influence on the other because who has not watched Star Trek? Should we interfere? More pointedly should higher cultures interfere with us? Have they?
I have often thought that long parts of the Old Testement read like a breeding experiment with human stock with radio contact to a project coordinator. So perhaps our God is nothing more or less then this influence.
Would we have the right to take a species with the will and wit to be our partners and make some portion of them civilized in a single generation and then charge that portion to fill the world and join our cause?
It comes down to an accedent of timing, and I feel that in a world like ours where periodic catastrophy looms, how could allowing a race to reach a point of saving itself be immoral?
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Your ending question does not match the rest of your thesis. Your stance was is it worng to lift anther race up, but the last paragraph said raising up to save themselves.
I do not think that it would be right to interfer with another culture, mainly because we would be imposing apon them our moral judgements, and effectivly making them human. Esp. if the goal was to save, because with our help, there would be "agreements" that must be met.
However I could see where we could have been tampered with. To the bible, in the story of noah. Some aliens could have monitored our weather and warned noah. But that is a long shot.
If we were interfered with, that has certainly stoped. When/if we were tampered with, it was long ago, before we were as we are now. In that case it was not to save, but for purposes unknown. I do not think it would be that bad of a thing so lonk as you took an active role in the devlopment. Not just give them compacity, and leave them to fill it.
However you could take the problem farther and ask, did they tamper so much as to creat us to begin with? You raise the point of breeding. Could we be a breeding expirement? Some aliens come and tamper with the genetics to see if they could make sentience(sp?) from monkeys. then we raise a whole new set of moral problems.
And going back to noah, that could be like in our fly breeding in biology when we set loose the adult flies, and concentrated on the babies. The "aliens" were, in effect clearing the viles.
-W-
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
The end of my post is not clear but the implication I meant to make was that the failure to tamper was risking accidental catastrophic extinction.
However I never implied I thought tampering was a bad thing. I wondered what others thought.
The section of the Bible I am refering to is the creation and direction of the Jewish people.
Start with a chosen man, selected for certain traits.
He produces a son through intervention with an infertile woman. (new traits added)
Encourge the son to certain healthy practices and look for the emergence of inserted traits.
When famine threatens move breeding group to new location.
When numbers are sufficiant send breeding group into fertile region after first culling group in hardship conditions.
Order breeding group to kill all natives in region and prohibit interbreeding to prevent loss of genetic drift.
Maintain advisory contact with group to encourage successful domination and expansion of new traits.
Look for individuals who display the largest percentage of special abilities due to manifestation of genetic alterations, and use them as intermediaries.
Find individual female with strong inherited traits and artifically impregnate her with "Ideal" offspring with full abilities and knowlege built in. (John and Jesus were close relatives after all)
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Warning: Nerd-dom has reached critical levels! Bail out!
*presses emergency thread ejection button*
[ December 09, 2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Yes, but tampering is bad. What right do the others have to express traits in us? Nature should take care of bring the important traits without any trouble or help. That is why it is wrong. And as I said, don't give the ability for a cutlure to distroy itself, if you cannot police it to ensure that does not happen. (unless that is your goal, in which case, you are either really evil, or me.)
-W-
Posted by BobbyK (Member # 5970) on :
Psssst. Frisco. You clicked on "Star Trek Prime Directive in Xenocide". What exactly are you then?
O wait.... I'm here too...
[ December 09, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: BobbyK ]
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Oh, I just came in to say that.
I dared not read past the title for fear of infection.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I've been infected just by having read the title. This is what I get for coming to this side of the river.
I think I'm growing Vulcan ears.
Damn.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Well to say that tampering is bad is silly I think. Do we let the intellegent people of Pompei die because they do not yet understand Vulcanology? What do dead people learn? Nature is not always going to allow a species time to evolve without intervention. How do we know that the kick our species recieved in the past is not the only thing that made us a tecnologically advanced civilization between two ice ages, or two super-valcanoe erruptions or between two asteroid impacts? (or any combination of ELE) Can we say that it was bad to have made the climb? Would it be bad to allow another species to do the same? I think not.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
saving a species is all well and good. But how would save the people of pompei? Move them. How would move them? Some sort of advanced transportation. How will the natives percieve it? We (whoever) are Gods. Why is that bad? Because it is bad enough that they believe in multiple gods, without making them believe in another. Or they will attribute it to teir one God, and that too would be false. You would tamper with the social and spiritual beliefs of a people. That is why it is wrong.
-W-
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: I think I'm growing Vulcan ears.
*pat pat* Don't worry, Ralphie. When you bob 'em, it's usually at least five years or so before they need to be re-bobbed.
*checks* Yeah, I think mine are good for at least another couple years.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think anyone who's interested in this question should read The Uplift Wars by David Brin. He does a fairly good job of addressing the different sides of this issue.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
Or go watch Babylon 5. No Prime Directive in that series. And humans were portrayed as having been actively tampered with by beings who look a lot like angels. . . .
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
I love Babylon 5!!! I have every episode on my HD!!
-W-
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:I love Babylon 5!!! I have every episode on my HD!!
::dies laughing::
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ralphie, you are my hero.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Well, I lied. I don't have every episode on my computer. My [word deleted in light of other user sensitivity] of a mom deleted them. But I did have them at one time. Man I love that show.
-W-
[ December 11, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Julian Delphiki Jr. ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
that's are really rude thing to say about your mom. But I guess it does make you a son of one. I'd appreciate it if you'd edit that.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
d00d. Calling your mom a bitch is cool.
It means you're, like, emotionally emanicipated. And stuff.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Aight pooka, I gotcha covered. I thought it moght cause some...stuff...
-W-
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Ummm... What ralphie said.
Well I get really frustrated some times. Everything of mine she deletes.. It gets me so mad. -W-
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
You should've changed it to "beeotch". That's more sensitive, right?
Personally, I think "bitch" was used to convey the emotion you were feeling, and needed no editing. I really don't understand people's problem with reading bad words.
If we're going to start blowing the whistle over minor profanity, we might as well go delete half the threads on the other side because of their non-"G" rating.
*annoyed*
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Ummm... What ralphie said.
I did, however, say it with scathing sarcasm. So, factor that in with any "amens" you have to my post.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: You should've changed it to "beeotch". That's more sensitive, right?
Personally, I think "bitch" was used to convey the emotion you were feeling, and needed no editing. I really don't understand people's problem with reading bad words.
If we're going to start blowing the whistle over minor profanity, we might as well go delete half the threads on the other side because of their non-"G" rating.
*annoyed*
While I agree with this, I do reserve the right to think anyone who calls his mother a bitch is a big goober.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Oh, agreed.
I think ridiculing the angsty teen is much funnier than censoring him.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Dude, maybe she'd stop deleting your stuff if you stopped downloading copyrighted material off the internet. Just a thought.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Man do I feel the love. No, it is not beause it is copyrighted. she partakes in file sharing herself. As far as the "angst ridden teen" goes, that is not true. I am not full of hatered or lothing fo all thosein my family. My mom does one thing that makes me mad. Sorry that i let you all know about that. And as far as the cencoring thing goes, I did that because i was out of line. No, my mom is not a bitch, she occasionally makes me mad. Sorry I brought the subject up.
And while I am being everyone's whore, I am really sorry, Bean Counter, for degrading this serious topic, that could have been debated seriously, into this pissing contest. Please forgive me.
-W-
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Serious debate?
Dude, you're going to thank us for interrupting, someday.
[ December 12, 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Yes, we look upon thread derailment with much censure around here.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
It is all serious for one reason or another. I do not understand how a reader of the Ender Books, the virtual flagship series for nerddom, the "How it feels to be smarter then the rest" book of the century can cry Nerd Alert about Star Trek.
Honestly I feel as if I have been crowned. Great Nerd at the Nerd convention.
Still the thread exists even if the topic eluded some. Should intervention with an intellegent species take place, nor is this a jump into idle speculation.
Third world and tribal cultures are adapted to a place and pace of life that we do not share, we mercilessly integrate these cultures into our own sprawling over culture changing the world in our own image.
Many Cultural Anthropologist have noted that the knowlege of our exisitence sends a shock into these cultures that makes them start acting like us as much as they can. Contact kills them.
Yet it also extends their lives, improves their standard of living (sometimes) and offers them greater possibilities.
Same issue really, do we have the right to withhold and sit in judgement, or the duty to do our best to share what we have?
BC
Posted by V Aaron (Member # 6012) on :
If we ever actually met an alien species, they would be so vastly different from us that I can hardly believe that contamination would cause them to lose their cultural identity. Of course, this is not true in the Star Trek universe, where aliens look just like us and speak English.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Yes, tampering does happen. And I am one of those people that believe what happens is supposed to happen: fate. So, the integration of cultures was supposed to happen, and it did. That is the natural devlopment of things. However, I am still against it.
Mainly because, if you give them the ability, you also have to teach. If you don't teach, the living improvment might not last that long, before they are thrown mack into 3rd-worlddom.
The devolped conutries were able to cope (yeah right) with the new techknowledgy, and not destroy ourselves, because we were here for the progression. Had someone juse gave us the means to build an atomic bomb, we would have destroyed ourselves. Like in the 3rd-world, they were given the ability to have weapons, and the only ones that could get the weapons were the rich. So they use the weapons to oppress. 3
That is what could very well happen if we were to interfer with other alien cultures, like the alien cultures here on earth. So i will be forever against it.
-W-
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote: do not understand how a reader of the Ender Books, the virtual flagship series for nerddom, the "How it feels to be smarter then the rest" book of the century can cry Nerd Alert about Star Trek.
*snicker* It's funny because it's true. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:I do not understand how a reader of the Ender Books, the virtual flagship series for nerddom, the "How it feels to be smarter then the rest" book of the century can cry Nerd Alert about Star Trek.
Because the only person to dress up in a ridiculous costume at Endercon was OSC's son, Geoff.
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
You can bet money that if I had gone to Endercon, I would've worn my Star Trek uniform. Of course, it fit me back when I was fifteen, which was about six inches ago. So maybe I wouldn't have worn it after all.
Posted by V Aaron (Member # 6012) on :
If it's a Kirk costume, those extra inches would be appropriate.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Honestly I feel as if I have been crowned. Great Nerd at the Nerd convention.
No, it was a Deep Space Nine–era costume.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
I think that the Deep Space 9 series was by far the best created. I never really liked the original series. It was too mellow dramatic, with the "da da dum!!" before every comercial.
-W-
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: Because the only person to dress up in a ridiculous costume at Endercon was OSC's son, Geoff.
Yeah, well, I wasn't there. Maybe next time.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
C'mon, Bean Counter. The whole purpose in being a geek is feeling superior to other people, especially people with normal social lives. It ends up spilling over into geek subcultures, and rival geekdom ensues. This is pretty basic geek knowledge, and if some of us geeks want to feel cool because we perceive that someone else is not exhibiting their geekdom correctly, than you have to give that to us. I mean, where would geekdom be without a heirarchy to establish some organization?
You damn geek.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
*thumps staff twice on the floor* All hail, Ralphie, Queen of the Geeks!
*snickers* Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Does that make you Court Jester of Geeks, JNSB?
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
I don't think I'm worthy of that title. I didn't/don't watch Babylon 5, never went to a sci fi convention, don't have pointy ears, and have never worn a Star Trek uniform. *ponders* But, I did go to the Oregon Hatrack Get Together...*brightens* does that make me a geek?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
No, but it does make you HAWT!
Wait, no that's me.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
quote:Or go watch Babylon 5. No Prime Directive in that series.
... or Star Trek for that matter. Sometimes I think that one of the messages was that the Prime Directive is stupid and impractical.
[ December 13, 2003, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:No, but it does make you HAWT!
Wait, no that's me.
If Ralphie weren't already my minion, I'd totally be hers.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Wow, this has degraded nicle in to a depiction of the subculture of hatrack. Or at least this side. This is quite interseting if I do say so myself.
In the immortal worts of Strong Mad: "KEEP IT GOIN'"
-W-
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Ralphie is so holding court in this thread. She should she go to the narcissism thread and post so much that she takes it over. That would truly show the extent of her dominion.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Wow, this has degraded nicle in to a depiction of the subculture of hatrack. Or at least this side. This is quite interseting if I do say so myself.
Nope. The subculture of the 'other' side of the 'rack.
JNSB - Damn fanboy.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Ah, to hold court. I dream of that day comming true for myself. But alas, it is some time off.
-W-
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Woah, page 2. Any who, I need to go over to the other side some time. If only I knew what you guys were talking about.
-W-
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
Woah, that made me sound stupid! I know where it is. I was talking about...well I don't know. Just whatever....
-W-
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't know if I've ever knowingly replied to myself, Julian, but it's okay to just say :bump: if you want the thread to the top. As long as the Hitler threads are one here, I'm all for bumping anything.
Posted by Julian Delphiki Jr. (Member # 5882) on :
I am confused. What do you mean by saying :bump:?
-I thuoght I mad it clear that I was W-
Posted by HeWhoMustNotBeNamed (Member # 6061) on :
I just wanted to say, in defense of Star Trek, aka, my plans for Friday nights, to V Aaron's post about all the aliens in Star Trek looking human, and speaking English. Ok, well, I can't really explain the whole English speaking thing, except to say it's the best damn language in the universe (I know this because it's the only one I've bothered to learn, and I have never felt the need to learn another.) But, as to all the aliens looking human, this was explained in an episode of TNG. A super intelligent species that existed billions of years ago decided to populate the universe with their DNA so that their intelligence would never die from the universe. And, as to cultural contamination, I don't think it's possible to stop. It's a fact of life. You can't touch something and not change it. And, it also begs the question of how much control you have over a situation where you are a member of a superior civilization who comes into contact with a more "savage" one. There could be a butterfly effect, where you only thought you were showing them a cool trick. I think it'll probably remain a moral conundrum, though, just like plenty of other things. Good intentions breeding bad inventions and all.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)