I just (minutes ago) finished "Pastwatch" and I loved it! The book I read last week was "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" and this story with its references to Atlantis and sailing flowed perfectly. I've heard of this book years ago, It actually was published a year after I really got into OSC, but I couldn't bring myself to buy it, because I imagined it would be a bit dry. (come on, really, how do you turn bland history into something appealing?) I'm sorry I waited this long to read it. It is one of my favorite books, already. I'll have to reread it to make sure. What I think would be really neat: A whole series of "Pastwatch" books and alternate histories based on other historically important events (maybe even get into the Bible...Moses and the exodus, maybe Abel kills Cain, oh, Maybe Jesus isn't crucified...) I guess what I'm saying is: I really enjoyed this book and I would like to know what other people have to say about it.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
He's already planning on writing two more Pastwatch books...one on Noah, I believe, and the other on the Garden of Eden.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
If you like alternate history another author you will like is Harry Turtledove. He has several interesting fantasies out there where historical events and people are scattered in time, place or skewed fate.
Legions of Videssos, Guns of the South, and In the Balance come to mind.
I have not read the book you mentioned so I will look for it!
BC
Posted by Diko (Member # 6060) on :
I have read it and it is my favorite book of all time. I'm a huge history nerd, so I was not at all hesitant to pick it up. (what to you is dry and boring is quite fascinating to me, and I would read my older cousins history books voraciously when I was a kid.)
You'll notice that my username here is Diko, one of the major characters in the book.
I think the best part for me were the Pastwatch machines themselves. To be able to look back at history like that, to watch individual lives unfold before you...as well as watching whole civilizations! I love history, as I've said, and while most people who like history study politics and wars, I've always been most enthusiastic about learning about the PEOPLE who lived in the times we were studying. What religions did they follow? What clothes did they wear and why? How did they do *this* task without the particular invention that we have today to make our lives easier? Which people had a major influence on history, just by doing plain old ordinary things? The list goes on an on, but I am rambling so I'll stop. Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
I also just recently finished Pastwatch and I LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's especially interesting becuase in my history class we're doing U.S. Civil War stuff. And we were discussing how people actually thought, as in "how could they possibly think that Blacks were not human how could they possibly justify themselves etc".
I really, really wanted to grab a Tru-Site II and find out how people could possibly think and act the way they did. And of course, reading all the first hand accounts of slaves, and wondering if it actually WOULD be worth gambling with the world to stop slavery before it started, as was the Pastwatch goal.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I thought Turtledove wrote mostly horror?
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
Blacwolve, I don't know which Turtledove you're thinking of, but Harry Turtledove is about 98% Alternate History -- and shows up in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section of your local bookstore, not the Horror section.
Even his "Darkness" fantasy series is really just "Alternate Reality" rather than "Alternate History." It's "what if WWII took place in a fantasy world?" The analogues are so obvious. Magical transport caravans still have to follow "ley-lines" (hello railroads). The standard infantry weapon is a "stick" and it can be recharged with the life force of a downed comrade (hello rifles and taking your buddy's ammo when he's killed). The discrimination against Jews and Holocaust are there, as are submarines, bombers, armor (tanks) -- it's an entertaining read too.
Anyway, tangent over. . . .
I have read Pastwatch 4 or 5 times now and enjoy it just as much each itme as the time before. Very interesting ideas, IMO.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Pastwatch is also one of my favourite books of all time.
OSC got a lot of his inspiration for the novel from Guns Germs and Steel (Jared Diamond) which although a little repetitive is an amazing book on longitudinal history.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I loved Harry Turtledove's World War series. Nothing at all like Pastwatch, but I want to mention it anyway.
It's plot is, what would have happened if we were invaded by aliens in the midst of World War II? It's really good stuff, especially since it deals with the aliens as characters, not just an unknown force.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
I got Pastwatch for Christmas, read it, then read a couple other Christmas books and now I'm rereading Pastwatch. I think it's incredible. My only concern with more books is this: If they changed the past the future would be irrevocably changed and so Pastwatch doesn't exit anymore. So does a different version of Pastwatch eventually come to exist? Or will if be the old Pastwatch before they change Columbus and they don't actually change things in the next books?
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
Nonononononono! There are no paradoxes in Time Travel! This is our mantra: There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. Repeat it with me now: There are no paradoxes in Time Travel.
Actually, some have suggested that time travel isn't really time travel, so much as traveling to a different universe. Since infinite universes are possible, there's one out there (SOMEwhere) in which you traveled to that time and made that change -- but didn't affect your own, so Pastwatch still exists in YOUR universe to send you back in time in the OTHER universe to make the change.
So pastwatch didn't actually help themselves -- They helped another universe. Oops!
Or . . . whatever cockamamie theory you can come up with.
There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. There are no paradoxes in Time Travel. There are no paradoxes in Time Travel.
Okay, I'll stop spamming. . . . Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You know, that was one of the refreshing things about Pastwatch -- it managed to make sense.
Ever since I was a little kid, the Star Trek version of time travel has bothered me. It just doesn't make sense. The future is changed, but some of the characters, in order to move the plot forward, remember how it used to be? Why are they so special? (Because they are major characters, and the script writer is on their side.)
It seems to me that there are only 2 time travel mechanisms that make coherent sense. 1) Pastwatch Method -- you go back in time, and you completely change the future. 2) Bootstrap Method -- you cannot go back in time unless going back in time is what caused you to go back in time.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote:My only concern with more books is this: If they changed the past the future would be irrevocably changed and so Pastwatch doesn't exit anymore. So does a different version of Pastwatch eventually come to exist? Or will if be the old Pastwatch before they change Columbus and they don't actually change things in the next books?
If I wrote the story, I'd make it inevitable for human society to fall and rise again, hence creating Pastwatch (meaning your first idea). Then different characters (or maybe some of the same characters?) would inevitably reach the same conclusion: we have to go back and change history. They, of course, wouldn't choose to change slavery, since it wouldn't exist. But that's why this path so good: there could be a book for every mistake humankind has ever made.
That is, of course, unless this Adam & Eve thing is true. I hope it's not, 'cause that would destroy any possibility of getting a fourth book in the series unless OSC went the skepticist's route for the Adam & Eve account. But I doubt he would.
Posted by Camber (Member # 6154) on :
SPOILER WARNING One thing that I really loved about Pastwatch was Card's treatment of religion as a serious element in history. But I also find myself bothered by Diko's tampering with religion. When the novel ends and the capsules are found, an entire people would realize that the events upon which their religion is based were fabrications. It would be like us finding a time capsule that explains that future beings fabricated Paul's conversion experience, or Joseph Smith's first vision.
Thank you, OSC for mentioning Sid Meier in your acknowledgements. I believe you also mentioned it in Lovelock's acknowledgements. I have thoroughly enjoyed Civ3 and its expansions, and thinking of you playing it as you worked through Pastwatch and Lovelock has made both the books and the game even more enjoyable for me.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I just finished Pastwatch this week, and I agree with most of you -- I loved it.
Funny thing was -- I didn't think I was going to like it for about the first four chapters. Then when the "twist" to the story comes at the end of chapter five, suddenly it gets very exciting.
I did think OSC did a wonderful job of making sense of time travel in the way he presented it in the story. It gives the impression this almost could have happened many many different times, with different outcomes, once mankind progresses to the level that they realize they can influence history -- then they start over, go back and do it all again -- until we get to that level again.....
I agree with Camber's post, however, that I almost wish he had left off the "finding of the time capsule" at the end. My first thought, too, was that such a find would totally disrupt the religion/culture of the modern day -- basically people would feel they didn't know what was true and what was created by the Pastwatch people -- it would shake the foundations of civilization. Better for them NOT to know..
Farmgirl
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: unless OSC went the skepticist's route for the Adam & Eve account. But I doubt he would.
Why not? He's gone the skeptic's route in many novels. He went that route with Noah in Atlantis.
Posted by pwiscombe (Member # 181) on :
I don't know that he did go the skeptic's route with Atlantis.
The hero (can't think of the name now) was prompted to go to the sea, where it was revealed to him what was going to happen. He returned to the people and prophesied. Those who believed in him would be saved. Those who didn't were destroyed.
That is the message that prophets have always given: Follow the counsel that God has given me and you will be saved. Ignore it and you will be destroyed. Whether it was a global or local event is not really an important part of the story.
Sure a lot of people get hung up on it. It says in Genesis that the whole world was flooded. But it also says in the Luke that "All the world" was taxed by Caeser. Did that include the Chinese, or the Australians, the Africans, or just "the world" that the author was concerned with?
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I read Pastwatch about half a year ago and found it fascinating! I started re-reading it, but then got sidetracked by other reading projects.
So much to read, so little time!
quote:He's already planning on writing two more Pastwatch books...one on Noah, I believe, and the other on the Garden of Eden.
I didn't know that, but I would certainly check these out, if they come to fruition.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
Actually, pwiscombe, Luke writes that Caesar decreed that all the world should be taxed (emphasis mine.) Not that the whole world was actually taxed. I'm pretty sure Caesar Augustus would have taxed the Chinese, Australians, and South Africans, plus the Nephites and Lamanites for good measure, if he could.
Also, I don't doubt for a minute that OSC would go the skeptic's route for Adam and Eve, if thats what it requires to create a great story. He is writing fiction , after all.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
pwiscombe, let me say then that the route that he took in Atlantis was more skeptical than I am. I would guess that it's more skeptical than OSC himself is. But I really liked that story. Posted by Diane S. (Member # 6612) on :
Pastwatch is my alltime favorite book (well..that and Lovelock). Harry Turtledove is a good read, altho you could probably effectively edit the seven WWII books down to 2 books and not loose a thing. The best Harry Turtledove alternative history book is the one based on Elizabethan England and the Armada and William Shakespeare. Best written, and best of all, it was kept to just one large book. I would give him a try.
I loved Pastwatch. All of the ideas were so well connected. Master Orson never makes history dry, he makes it come alive with his great characterizations. I'd say Orson is better than Dickens at creating meorable people.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
One great thing about OSC is that reading him makes me want to learn more history.
And I agree -- OSC is the master of characterization.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Pastwatch is one of my favorite OSC books.It moves along much faster than most alternate histories I have read. As far as Turtledove goes, my favorite is "Agent of Byzantium".
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
There was a time travel story or book by Issac Asomov that I really liked, but can't remember the name. An agency is set up to change history in such a way that technological advances were accelerated. The purpose was to improve the social and scientific world they lived in by changing the course of history.
The main character falls in love with a woman in the past. So, he tries to make it possible for her time and his time to somehow coincide. However, instead of making things better, he begins to make things worse and unwrap the fabric of time to dangerous levels.
That is all I can remember of it, although not sure how accurate my description happens to be. It was one of the best time travel books I have ever read, although it seemed to have its travelor in a time bottle problem. Can't remember how, or if, he ever got around that.
Posted by Loial (Member # 5788) on :
I think you are refering to Asimov's "The End of Eternity". I think you got some of the details wrong, but I read it very long ago, so I'm not sure.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Yes, End of Eternity. It was wretched. Don't bother reading. If you love Asimov's work, be especially careful to avoid that flaming pile of dung. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Is that the one where whenever they fixed some societal problem it killed space flight?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
I've put a lot of effort into forgetting the details. Posted by julian (Member # 6540) on :
If I don't remember bad, Asimov included "End of eternity" in the Foundation saga (not directly, but as a support novel) as the explanation of why human beings were the only one intelligent specie in all the galaxy.
There novels are far in the past. Good memories. In those times there were more SF writers that I loved. Now OSC is the only one, I'm afraid.
(Perhaps I'm turning old. The next step is to forget things)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:In those times there were more SF writers that I loved. Now OSC is the only one, I'm afraid.
Why do you think that is, julian? What non-sf authors do you like?
Posted by DocCoyote (Member # 5612) on :
I also needed about 4 chapters to really fall under Pastwatch's spell, but then... hooked. I really loved it. Can't wait for more of that series.
I also enjoy Harry Turtledove. He's got a book called Guns of the South, which has modern apartheid fans travelling back to arm Lee's army with automatic weapons. Don't let the title stop you. The book is not racially motivated and has no negative racial innuendo or intent.
Posted by Enderwillsaveusall (Member # 6227) on :
Hmmm i really enjoyed seventh son and red prophet.I am currently reading prentice alvin.These books are alternate history books and i really like them so i guess ill go pick up pastwatch.
Posted by mike laub (Member # 6712) on :
I day dream all the time of how history could have been better. What if the United States would have grown to control north and south america, what if hitler would have been killed, what if Germany would have gone thru arab country, instead of europe, or thru china?
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
When I first started reading Pastwatch, I didn't quite know what to think. It wasn't what I expected. However, I loved it by the end.
Sometimes I think OSC could write just about anything and make it interesting.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Yeah, the very fact that he was able to make Christopher Columbus a likeable character was remarkable. I have nothing but disdain for the real Columbus, so I was impressed that he was able to take Columbus and turn him into somebody I could root for.
Of course, he also made me bitterly despise the very sound of the name 'William Henry Harrison', so I guess it's a fair trade. Posted by tomcody (Member # 6723) on :
New to the site, read Pastwatch and others. This gave me a real desire to get a good bio of Christopher Columbus--does anyone know of a good book on the man? Something that sticks mainly to the facts and doesn't have too much of a editorial bias against him (imperialism, despoiler of the americas, etc.)?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
You might check the afterward to Pastwatch. I seem to remember OSC talking about the books he used and one of them was a good, relatively balance biography of Colombus, the one he used.
Ian
Posted by tomcody (Member # 6723) on :
Thank you. I'm actually in the process of reading it for the second time, had forgot about the Sources section in the back. I always feel this vague unease when looking at a bibliography, like more has been written about any given subject than any one person could ever hope to read all of it. Makes me wonder just how many books out there on any given subject are redundant, but for perhaps a few sentences or paragraphs. Or how the accumulated knowledge of any one subject could be condensed, filtered, to get at the core facts. Anyone else ever think about that? I'm just following a train of thought.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Ivygirl has an assignment for her history class in which the instructor wants each student to read some books (fiction or non-fiction) that has some type of historical background, to give a report on the historical viewpoint of the book. She went up after class and asked, "Is alternative history okay?" He kind of gave her a blank look for a few seconds, then said, "Sure, that would be fine." (She still doesn't have any clue if he knows what alternative history is or not).
So she plans on doing it on Pastwatch.
Farmgirl
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yay for teachers that don't have a clue, but don't ask for fear of looking stupid, or are just too apathetic to bother asking!
You know, when I was teaching, I was never afraid to admit when I was unfamiliar with something a student was talking about, or didn't know an answer to their question. I'd just ask them for more info in the former situation, and tell them that I didn't know but that I'd find out for them in the latter. Life's too short, and I have too much respect for other people, to handle it differently.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Yeah, I had one teacher that said "I'll have to look into that, I'll get back with you when I have an answer" more times than I can count. She didn't know alot, but at least she was willing to admit it and do the research.
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I'm a huge history nerd, so I was not at all hesitant to pick it up. (what to you is dry and boring is quite fascinating to me, and I would read my older cousins history books voraciously when I was a kid.)![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I thought Turtledove wrote mostly horror?
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