Hatrack River Forum: disagreements resolved at long last

This is topic disagreements resolved at long last in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.

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Posted by Taw-qing-jao (Member # 6127) on :

My ex-boyfriend and I were always fighting over this, so I'd be glad to hear everyones opinions on the subject. I idolize Orson and he told me that, he makes mistakes, I argued atht theu books are sooo maticulously checked over and over that there are few mistakes. He says that the word formic is a mistake because, it is not used in Ender's game. I say it is used in Ender's game but,only fleetingly because they had no respect for the buggers. someone please prove me right. [Grumble]

Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :

You are wrong.

Now send me all your money.

Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :

While Uncle Orson is a really neat guy, he is not perfect. He had made several mistakes in his books, and by this I mean continuity errors. This has happened even with the help of many memebers here.

For example in the most recent book in the Alvin series, Crystal City, neither OSC or the proofreaders here at the site caught that the sex of the stillborn baby of Alvin and Peggy had changed.

Small examles that should not take away your enjoyment of the books.

Now send me all your money. [Smile]

msquared

Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :

The author is great
he commands much respect
but please do not hate
that he is not perfect

Posted by Taw-qing-jao (Member # 6127) on :

By no means was I saying that Orson is perpetually perfect, actually I was saying that his wrighting is ususally without mistakes. The point though that you all have seemed to miss is my question about the word formic.

Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :

The point you seem to miss is that we got your point, and then we told you that you're wrong.

Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :

The change from bugger in Ender's Game to Formic in Ender's Shadow was deliberate. Is that what you are getting at? There is a passage in Ender's Shadow that explains how bugger is a very bad word in England.

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

The word "Formic" was never used in Ender's Game. However, even in "Ender's Game" it was implied that Bugger was a slang term. The official term Formic was not introduced until later books, but that does not mean the word did not exist when Ender was in Battle School.

Furthermore, since the change from Bugger to Formic is a deliberate one, I really don't see it as a mistake. It was OSC's way of being culturally sensitive to those poor Brits, and hence not a mistake at all.

P.S. One good turn deserves another, as JKR's original title for her famous first book, "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone" was changed to "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" because Scholastic felt American children just wouldn't know what a "Philosopher's Stone" is.

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :

You're joking, right, Beren? Tell me you're joking . .. pretty please?

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :

About which part, Shan? I'm fairly certain he's right on all counts.

Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :

The story goes something like this . . .

Since OSC knew that bugger was such a strong word in England, and he knew he wanted this movie of Ender's game to get made, and he didn't want all the British kids giggling at all the scary parts when they heard the naughty word, he knew he had to come up with a new word to use in the movie. He used it for the first time in early drafts of the screenplay, and then worked it in to the Shadow novels.

It was never even used in the Speaker series.

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

[Angst]

Why, did I say something wrong?

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :

It's the part about American kids not knowing what "philospher" means . . . *Shudders* [Grumble]

What has the world come to?

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

Actually it is not the word Philosopher that americans do not know it is the alchemical use of the word, the quest for the "Philosopher Stone" that changes lead to gold and grants immortality that has never been part of American myth as it was in Europe.

We had science fairly early and alchemy became chemistry.

BC [Big Grin]

Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :

msquared could you please put in a spoiler warning? I'm only on the second book in the Tales of Alvin Maker, and I really didn't want to find out about that.

Posted by Camber (Member # 6154) on :

BOH and BC, thanks for the JKR trivia. I'm not a reader of JKR, but I had wondered why the Sorcerer's Stone was called the Philosopher's Stone in the European release...I had thought the reverse was true, that the word Sorcerer had been removed to satisfy anti-witchcraft critics.

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

So it's true: some Americans have NOT heard of the Philosopher's Stone.

Posted by Camber (Member # 6154) on :

Yes, it's true. I heard about it a little after I had first heard the JKR title. I was reading a very inaccurate book about Jesus, the Essenes, alchemy, and the Holy Grail, called Bloodline of the Holy Grail. A waste of time; I highly recommend not reading it. In my previous 30 years of living life as an American, the term never came up, and I tend to read a fair bit of sci-fi/fantasy and medieval history.

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :

I have to agree. I am no slouch when it comes to vocabulary, and I was not familiar with that definition of the word Philosopher. It's just not a part of American English. Sorry.

Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :

It's not that the word philosopher has different definitions in Britain and America, mph. The title refers to a specific item called the "philosopher's stone," which most Americans have not heard of. Medieval alchemists, incidentally including one Nicolas Flamel (real person), devoted much of their experimenting to make a philosopher's stone, which would, as previously stipulated, turn things to gold and grant immortality. At least from what I understand; I've read about it several places. [Smile]

I still don't see why it had to be changed. The stone's properties were explained in the book adequately enough. *shrug*

[ January 29, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Lissande ]

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :

Flamel was a real person, and a philanthropist, but he was not an alchemist (or even an amateur scientist). He made his money the old fashioned way -- he married it. [Big Grin]

Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :

I was sort of surprised people hadn't heard of it. I would have understood the book so much more quickly if it had stayed the Philosopher's Stone. I don't even remember how I learned about it, it's just one of those things I've always known.

Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :

rivka, really? I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read! [Big Grin]

Posted by Master Kakashi (Member # 6165) on :

Ok, all this talk about HP is great, but I have a question on the earlier subject: What does bugger really mean? You say it's a naughty word, but how much? That's what I ask.

And I'd also like to point out that this smiley [No No]

looks like he is flipping you off.

Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :

It also looks like he's telling you to bugger off. Does that answer your question?

Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :

Its quite funny that the name was changed at all. I'm English and have read all the Ender and Shadow Books and didn't find Bugger remotely upsetting.

These days its usually used in a joky sense when annoyed - i.e. the televisions buggered or isn't he a cute little bugger. It original meaning was rude but its not that bad these days - or maybe thats just up north where I come from! [Dont Know]

In relation to HP I didn't know what the Philosophers Stone was until I read it - so its not just Americans! And like Lisaande said it explains it in the book anyway so whats the point!! [Confused]

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :

Lissande, I was trying to find the article from Chemical & Engineering News about Flamel. I know I clipped it, I can't find it. Drat. So I'll just have to summarize my memory of it.

IIRC, Flamel did get a rep as an alchemist -- but after he was dead, as way of explaining his wealth, and not based on actual facts. So Rowling's use of him was based on the legend, not the real person.

Oh, looky ("Mainstream Alchemy")! I love Google!

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

According to the Da Vinci Code, Flamel was also a protector of the sacred feminine.

*I know, I know, that book is fluff. But fun fluff IMHO*

Posted by Master Kakashi (Member # 6165) on :

May I ask a question totally off subject here? Umm, you all talk, well type actually, like you're graduates of some big ol' university or something. Don't think less of me if I ask what age group you all are in. No need to answer, but you all sound like adults to me. Not that it's a bad thing. [Razz]

Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :

Education - it's what you make of it, not what it makes of you . . . [Big Grin]

Go visit Ornery for some very scary educated writing . . .

Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :

quote:
What does bugger really mean? You say it's a naughty word, but how much?

It means "to [f-word] someone, using the back door."

For more on this subject, see the following song from Terry Pratchett's Discworld. (Do not click on this if you are easily offended. Unless you like having things to be offended about -- in which case, this'll do it.)
The Hedgehog Song

[ February 01, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :

I had no idea that it was that vulgar.

While we are on the subject, can anybody tell me how offensive the word "bloody" is over there?

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

I'm guessing it is not that bad of a word. Doesn't Ron say "bloody brilliant" all the time in HP?

Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :

Master Kakashi: We're anywhere from 10 to 99. Just assume you're talking to somebody with two digits in their age and you'll be fine. I'm sixteen.

Oh yeah, and I heard "bloody" is at the same level as "damn".

[ February 02, 2004, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]

Posted by Liquor and Fireworks (Member # 5785) on :

I think there are some 12 year olds creeping around somewhere(I stumbled upon a thread full of them once, it was creepy) but most people here seem to be atleast 20.
Me? I'm only sixteen, so you can feel free to think of me as a naive, stupid person posting out of his butt. Which is pretty much what I am, I never spend time trying to make my posts fit for human consumption, I just post as soon as something comes to mind.

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

I would guess at least 75% of the people who post here are either college graduates, grad students, college students, or college bound. The other 25% are just too smart to even waste time with college.

If you would like to hang out with a younger crowd, you might also try philotic web. [Smile]

Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :

And by "Philotic Web", she means this (their forum).

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

And by "she", Da_Goat means he. [Wink]

Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :

Well, bloody generally refers to (I've heard) the blood of Jesus Christ. So I guess it depends on whether you find that sacred or not.

[ February 02, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]

Posted by laraem (Member # 6103) on :

i wouldnt go so far as to say that the majority of people in here are college students and/or grads.
of course i dont actually know... but i would assume not... and if im wrong, then im suprised.

Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :

Ron doesn't say "bloody" in the books, Beren. That's movie contamination.

Posted by Master Kakashi (Member # 6165) on :

I actuall think that Ron saying bloody is kinda cool. But that's just me, since no one in the US says it.

Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :

I hate the bloody movies. [Smile]

Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :

Bloody does not traditionally refer to the blood of Christ, the history of the term refers to the unclean state of women during menstration. It was generaly a taboo topic for primitive Europeans.

BC

Posted by Mankind (Member # 2672) on :

I understood it to be a shortened form of "By our Lady," sort of a way of swearing by Mary.

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :

Take Our Word For It (a great etymology site) says:

quote:
As far as bloody being used as a chiefly British expletive, that dates from the 17th century. There is not a widely accepted explanation for its origin. One suggests that the word is a contraction of by our Lady, our Lady being Mary, the mother of God; another explanation is that the word became an `intensive,' as linguists call such words, by way of the nickname for Mary I of England, Bloody Mary.

Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :

I'm 16. I think what you're noticing in the posting is because most people (if not everyone) here enjoys reading, and so they prefer to have full sentences with capitalization and punctuation. The main reason I don't talk to people online very much is because most people I know don't know how to type in such a way that I won't get a headache from it.

Posted by Master Kakashi (Member # 6165) on :

midnight blue i like so totaly a gree i meen lik ppl r 2 bizy 2 type like they r edukated enugh to no baseic speling and gramer [Wink]

Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :

*head explodes*

Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :

I feel sorry for anybody with so little imagination that they only know one way to spell a word.... [Wink]

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :

Eye pheel souri four ini bahdee whit sew liddle eemajunation thet thay no owe-nly won whey two spehl uh wyrd.

Posted by Master Kakashi (Member # 6165) on :

Now I can see that these forums also include 6 year olds. [ROFL]