In the last homecoming book, Card had a character use the phrase "old digger woman". The phrase echoed in my ears like "old nigger woman". Do you think that the rhyme was intentional so as to make the diggers/angel conflicts/reliance an analogy for racial tension and interdependence or something?
It sounded too familiar to my ear to dismiss it as just a coincidence. For the remainder of the book, I was trying to piece together the analogy but never came up with anything substantial.
Any thoughts?
[ March 14, 2005, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Brian_Berlin ]
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
I don't think so.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Whoa. That does not sound like anything that OSC would have intended. I think it really is a coincidence.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
In "Oh Brother Where art Thou" I have a hard time telling whether they say "An ingorant old man" or "A N--- and an old man". I guess these perceptions say more about us than they do about the artists.
Posted by Brian_Berlin (Member # 6900) on :
well the term "digger" was used derogatively too. I thought it might be a 'hint' that there might be deeper meaning under the surface.
Just wondering if anyone saw any race parallels in the diggers and angels.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
(Spoilers?)
For me there was the class parallel, but since they started out as symbiotes and not an interbreeding species that doesn't really correlate with race. And ultimately I saw it as an allegory for the manichean heresy- the division of the body and spirit into bad/good. The unity of classes is an important teaching in the Book of Mormon, mainly because it seems to be human nature to continually redivide into classes.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: In "Oh Brother Where art Thou" I have a hard time telling whether they say "An ingorant old man" or "A N--- and an old man". I guess these perceptions say more about us than they do about the artists.
Being fluent in Southern, I can gay-run-tee that he's not saying IG-nor-ant, he's saying IG-nernt.
That is all. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
"gay-run-tee", now that has slur written all over it. Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
I think I remember though reading somewhere that OSC originally had the n-word in Ender's Game. I think it was in the question and answer part of this website. I'll try to find it.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
It's in my edition...1991? or so. Ender and Alai exchange good-hearted slurs in the battle room.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
And he took it out because (I hope I get this right) he didn't want it to get banned from some library because someone saw the word without understanding the context. He was comparing it to a case where some parent made a stink over the word "denigrate" being a slur. His point was, yes he was changing his work in order to satisfy the politically correct left, but he thought he could do so without hurting the story.
He also took out the reference to no accidents having occured during a NASA flight- after it was no longer true. Was there something about the moon as well?
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
People will continue to hear what they want to hear:
That doesn't mean it's not TRUE, however. I for one actually have trouble not hearing the slur in the "Roger Rabbit" sound byte, despite the fact that Snopes says its not true. The slur would have been in character for the off-color nature of the movie, but it IS hard to imagine Disney leting that one slip by.
In reference to OSC, I obviously can't speak for him, but I wouldn't be surprised to find some sort of lyrical word-play in his work.
Posted by Brian_Berlin (Member # 6900) on :
since scott's been around in recent days... *bump*
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
When reading the book, I myself wondered at the similarity between those words. It didn't bother me, since the book obviously showed that treating the diggers in such a manner was a shameful thing.
Posted by Verai (Member # 7507) on :
Oh give me a break.
The chances that it is intentional are nil. OSC has a career and a political voice. Why would someone risk a good reputation for a subtle racist mark like that? I would gamble that OSC is more careful than that.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
It should be significant that the word "digger" actually means "an entity that digs" and perfectly describes the rat-creatures in the story, which actually do dig in the ground. Come on, getting hyped up about this word is a lot like getting worried about someone using the word "niggardly" in public. The words are unrelated to the n-word, and actually mean something in context that has nothing to do with a racial slur. Let it rest.
[ March 14, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
I'm pretty dang sure Orson is no racist. I think if you imply the word "nigger" it says more about the person reading the book than it does about Orson. (not meaning that person is themselves a racist, only that they might be more sensitive to the issue or more ready to take offense at things)
Posted by Brian_Berlin (Member # 6900) on :
I'm NOT saying Card called anybody a nigger.
I'm not saying he's racist. That's a different thread started by somebody else.
What I'm curious about is if the comment by a fictional character has SYMBOLISM, specifically did the struggles between the diggers and angels and humans have a parallel parallel meaning with our civil rights movement. And, if so, I'd love to hear more about the symbolism.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
The nickname "digger" arose from the nature of their lives underground, but I was aware instantly of the rhyme and the obvious analogy and intended it. Just as I intended the same thing with "bugger." The idea is that society is forever choosing scapegoats and dehumanizing them with demeaning nicknames. I wanted modern readers to realize that we're talking about the same kind of despite that blacks have been treated with in America. I was not making a point about contemporary racism, but about human nature in general. Even though, of course, the "angels" and "diggers" are not of the same species, and neither is human; the fact is, the humans chose up sides even by the names they chose for the two alien species.
And of course I knew at once that you were not suggesting that I am a racist. That sort of thing is absurd and not worth answering. But if I wrote about human civilization and did not show prejudice as part of the mix, I'd be lying, wouldn't I?
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Either that, or you'd be writing Star Trek episodes. Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
Mr. Card's post would be too long to quote the whole thing, but I must say... (edit) his use of symbolism and analogy and... HONESTY is one of my favorite things about (edit) his writing. It is probably that which keeps me coming back for more. (And it is so exciting and well written of course)
No offense, I hope, but symbolism and analogy are what keep me reading Stephen King too.
Actually the same goes for Linda Hogan...
Well, hmmm, also for Tolkien
Er... and the Narnia Chronicals
And Jim Sagel (OK mostly him because he was one of my best friends, but also the symbolism and analogy)
I can say, all my favorite writers use symbolism and analogy to make their stories bigger than just the story. And Mr. Card does it especially well!
*babbling*
edit: My son has just demanded that I add Jody Bergsam to the list... so Jody Bergsma too...
She is ALSO pretty good at symbolism and analogy especially since her medium is children's picture books.
[ March 14, 2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: mimsies ]
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Nice list. Thanks for including me on it.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
sorry Brian. Think I'm still all wound up from the racist thread. Forgive please?
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Brian, I started reading what everyone else had written and forgot that your topic was not about Orson making a "subtle slur". Stupid of me, not thinking before I type, as usual. Posted by Brian_Berlin (Member # 6900) on :
no worries. all is forgiven.
[ March 15, 2005, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Brian_Berlin ]
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
Never mind. I just noticed the post above.
[ March 15, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: FIJC ]
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Saw Mr. Card last night at a book signing in DC. He actually commented on this thread. He said it was intentional, but not because he was being a racist. Just I guess comparing our society to that one.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
quote: Saw Mr. Card last night at a book signing in DC.
Must admit I am kinda jealous here...
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:"Saw Mr. Card last night at a book signing in DC. He actually commented on this thread. He said it was intentional, but not because he was being a racist. Just I guess comparing our society to that one."
Yeah, I was there too. Great discussion, although sometimes when he discussed certain literary works, I had absolutely no clue what he was talking about. It just goes to show that I perhaps I have buried my head too long in political science texts.
Posted by Verai (Member # 7507) on :
I apologize for my thoughtless post far above. It looked like another jab at the racist trend (I think I have a lack of reading comprehension)
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His point was, yes he was changing his work in order to satisfy the politically correct left, but he thought he could do so without hurting the story.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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