Ok, here is the research question we need some help with.
OSC asks: "Can anybody tell me how many years have passed, at the end of Puppets, since the last battle at the end of EG and EShad? How old are these battle school kids?"
Thanks guys! Kristine Card
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
(and of course she asks while I'm at work -- nowhere NEAR my books -- so I can't refresh myself on the timeline until I get home!) FG
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Hey, don't worry about it. I still haven't read Ender's Shadow or Shadow Puppets
edit: But I'm gonna take a guess and say they're 20-24. Just because...Yeah.
[ November 23, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I believe (and this is not having the books on hand) that Petra is 17 or so. I remember thinking that she was a bit young to be having children.
I'm probably no help. I think Petra was 11 when Ender came to Battle School. (wishes she had all the books)
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Argh, I'm at work and can't get to my books to check. I'm pretty sure, though, that Bean was 7 or maybe 8 during the battle at the end of Ender's Shadow. And I think he was in early adolescence for Shadow Puppets, maybe 14? 15? Petra would be older, of course, but I don't remember how much older.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Petra's fourteen at the beginning of Hegemon which is probably not long after the war was over.
What's irking me is that "Ender's Game" says how old they are at the end when someone makes a joke about having to go to school until you're sixteen, I think. But someone took my copy of "Ender's Game" and "Shadow" doesn't have that conversation.
And I don't see how it's even possible that they could have gotten married when Petra was 17 because Bean is a good deal younger than her.
[ November 23, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I remember that, but I think the joke was that they weren't nearly at that age yet. I'm not sure they mention what age they are.
I'm just frustrated that all the topics that pertain to this are so old that they've been deleted.
Anyway, I'm very late for class!!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Curse the guy that took my book! It would help if I could figure out how much older than Ender is Petra, and how much older than Bean is Ender. I think Ender's only about two years older than Bean, because Ender grossly misjudged Bean's age when he met him.
quote from Shadow Puppets:
quote: Even when Ender's jeesh was kidnapped and confined together in Russia, she and Dink bantered with each other just like old times, but she felt no spark. Through all that time, she would have laughed if anyone suggested that she would fall in love with Bean, and a scant three years later would be married to him.
So three years have passed since they were in Russia, which happened when Petra was 14. This is Petra's thought in Rotterdam, before she has the In-vitro. And she's still pregnant at the end, so...
[ November 23, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
What I really wanted kacard to post was a confirmation as to whether or not they received the KamaCon shirt.....
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
I remember that Peter was in college when he took the office of Hegemon ...
Don't know if that helps any though.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
It's frustrating to me that I never noticed how young Bean was before. I guess because he's tall he seems older than Petra, but she's at least a year older than Ender, which means Bean is, at the very most, 14 when he marries Petra.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I agree with Ender only being two years older than Bean, and Petra being three years older than Ender, making Petra five years older than Bean.
My best approximation (also without the books, but that's understandable since I'm at work right now) would make Bean 9 years old during the final battle. I really don't remember how much time passed during SHeg and Puppets, but I'm thinking it was around five years. The only way I can think to remember this is through Peter... but without the books at hand, I've got nothing!
Final guesses: Petra's "generation" (her, Dink, etc.) would be around 19 or 20. Ender's "generation" (Alai, Shen, etc.) would be around 16 or 17. Bean would then be around 14 or 15. That's the best I can do Posted by MaydayDesiax (Member # 5012) on :
Ender is 12 at the end of Ender's Game, if that's any help.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't think Petra's that much older than Ender. She's not even a toon leader when she meets Ender as a launchy, and he fights her as a captain when he's the captain of Dragon.
That settles it. I'm buying a new copy of Ender's Game this afternoon.
See, Card! This will be the third time I've bought that book brand new. The other two were both stolen by people who likely became fans after reading them. You have all of my money.
Mayday: Which would make Bean ten. Assuming he's still ten at the beginning of "Hegemon" it would make him four years younger than Petra, or 13 when they get married. Yikes.
[ November 23, 2004, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Wait, let's work backwards from what we've got here.
Petra's 14 in Russia. That makes her probably just 14, maybe an old 13, at the end of EG. With Ender being just 12, I'll give her around 2 years on Ender.
Provided Ender actually is two years older than Bean, Petra's four years older than Bean.
Add in the three years since Russia and a couple months for good measure, we've got Petra at 17 and Bean at 13.
Which is exactly what PSI just said.
I've got a copy of EG sitting in my computer bag right now, but it's a very late birthday present for a friend, and I'm loathe to open it and risk cracking the spine. Gah!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Open it. I'll buy it from you and you can get your friend a new one.
That quote is, in fact, in the end of "Ender's Shadow" but it's as Ryuko said. You can't tell their ages there, only that they are younger than seventeen.
I think Petra must still be fourteen at the end of "Ender's Shadow" because it says she's fourteen when she gets back to Armenia and next to no time passes between the end of the war and the kids being repatriated.
Also, the section at the end of "Puppets" where Petra is flying home to Bean gives me the impression that only a couple of months had passed since Petra got pregnant. She comments on the new changes her body is going through and she tells the man that helps her up that she's a "little bit pregnant". I realize it's a joke but I think she wasn't showing yet or the man would have noticed himself.
[ November 23, 2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I agree with the 17-13 thing. I figured it out after reading Puppets. However we don't *actually* know exactly how old Bean is so OSC could probably stretch it a little if he needs to. Yeah he was a precocious baby and has always acted older than he is and now he's growing larger too. I don't know that Anton gave a specific date to Carlotta or Bean about his date of birth. It bugs me just slightly that they are "too young". But they aren't "normal" either, and they aren't really children. And early on in our history people would reproduce at much younger ages cause they had to. So since there are different rules I guess it is ok.
AJ
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Might as well make a list:
Well, we know that Bean is four when he joins Poke's crew, because he tells her. And he goes to Battle School when he's five. And he's six when he picks Ender's army and joins it.
[ November 23, 2004, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
May, are you sure Ender was 12 at the end of the bugger wars? He was only 10 "going on 11" (as Graff said on the shuttle as they were docking) when he got to Eros.
Dang...answered my own question. Graff says that he's just turned 12 right after the war is over.
It doesn't say exactly how much older Petra is when Ender meets her (he's not quite 7), but I get the impression she's about 9. I think if she'd been much older or younger, it would have been noteworthy enough to say in the story. So that would make her just a little over 2 years older than Ender.
I think Bean is 3 years younger than Ender. Ender is not quite commander of Dragon yet when Bean comes up, but Bonzo is still alive, and Bean is 5 years old then. That would make Ender at least 7, probably 8 but not much older than that.
So that would make Bean 9, Ender 12, and Petra 14 at the end of the bugger wars. (Petra is 14 when she goes home at the beginning of SotH.) So if we give her 3 years for SotH, that makes her 17 and Bean 12. Like Carrie said. But at the end of SotH, Petra mentions to Bean that he'll soon have a man's height, yet at the beginning of SP, he likes being tall. It sounds like, to me, there's about a half a year or a year between the end of SotH and SP. That might make him 13 or possibly 14.
*goes back to digging*
[ November 23, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
How old is Ender when he leads Dragon? That's when Bean is six.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
PSI - But he doesn't know either.
AJ - Yeah, I agree with that. I felt the circumstances made up for the initial weirdness, but the moment I realized that this girl in the book who was having a family was about a year YOUNGER than me. It was a tad bit surreal. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
He doesn't know exactly, but considering the fact that he has memories dating back to when he was less than a year old, he can't be that far off.
A friend of mine just got married at 19. It sounds so young, but then I remember that my husband was 18 when I married him. It's crazy.
You know, it occurs to me that all the people stating his age throughout the book would have gotten their info from Bean's initial guess. He talks about how small he was when he was hiding in the toilet, and Carlotta guesses that he was less than a year old, but could he have been a bit older, only very under-sized? Although, he would have to be younger than Nikolai, and I think Nikolai is only about a year older than Bean. That doesn't give Bean much wiggle room there. He could only be a few months off on his guess of his age.
[ November 23, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
So, adding up that awesome timeline with everything that everyone has quoted, we get:
Ender at time of final battle : 12 Bean at time of final battle: 9 Petra at time of final battle: 14 (or so)
Petra says "Scant three years later" that she's married to Bean. So:
Bean is 12 at wedding Petra is 17 at wedding.
I remember when they got married saying "Yeah right, Bean's only 10 or something!" I wasn't too far off. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Holy mackerel! If that's correct, then Ender is three years older than Bean, which would mean Bean is twelve!?!
OKay, I'm slow, I guess. But how could Bean have even gone through puberty yet? Shouldn't he think girls are yucky?
[ November 23, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
We know that Bean was just slightly older than eight when the final battle occured (please don't ask me for page numbers and references, I made those timelines years ago, and I have lost all the notes I made in the process of doing so.) We also know that They returned to earth fairly quickly after the final battle took place. At the end of EG, it says that "in the months that followed he watched as one by one his friends went home (para)." We also know that Petra was fourteen when she came home, per Shadow of the Hegemon first chapter. BTW, if it hasn't already been pointed out, that also means we know the relative age of Petra to Peter, though again, I can't remember if that has ever been explicitly stated. Since Ender was six when he went to battle school and eleven at the Third Invasion, he spent about five years there. Peter was... damn. I don't remember how old Peter was when Ender went... Hold on... I think it was eleven, but I won't guarantee it. Somebody else can look it up if they so desire. Anyway, that would put him at sixteen for the third invasion, making him two years older than Petra and eight years older than Bean. Now, all we have to do is find out exactly how much time is spent on earth during the latter Shadow books and we have their current ages. I must confess I never did any timelines for the shadow series. Any other Ender Scholars out there.
P.S. OSC, you can relax. I'm not obsessed with you anymore. Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Eeeew.
(edit)
Never mind. Forget the "Eeeeew," because Bean was maturing at an accelerated rate, remember. He probably married Petra when it looked like HE was the cradle robber. Plus, we aren't sure if he is going to have a puberty per se, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
[ November 23, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: IdemosthenesI ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
So Peter was a 16-year-old college sophomore? I guess it's not really too hard to believe.
Well, he's definitely taller than Petra, but still. I don't think he had an actual puberty, just a growth spurt where puberty should have been. Or something.
I'm pretty sure you're right about Peter's age. I think he was fourteen and Val was twelve when Ender was nine.
[ November 23, 2004, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Close, Narnia. I believe you have one year too many. They were Eleven and Eight for the Third Invasion. They only spent a few months on Eros, and I distinctly remember a passage about how Ender's birthday probably came and went and he didn't notice. Given the Three Years quote (which I had completely forgotten) that would make them:
Bean married at 11 Petra married at (16 or 17)
depending on Petra's exact birthday. Assuming her birthday did not occur in the months on Eros immediately after the final battle, she would be seventeen. Once again, though, Bean isn't exactly a "normal" eleven.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Which also means that Peter, at this time is eighteen or nineteen (and Hegemon)
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Man, you made me do it again, kacard! I swore I would never again pick up Ender's Game solely for "research," having got past my "#1 fan" stage. Oh well. Glad we could help, anyway. Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Yeah, I forgot about the whole accelerated-maturing thing Bean has going on. That makes it less gross, I guess. Still weird, though.
And as a side note, Ender was nine and a half when he got command of Dragon.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Really? I guess that makes sense with what demosthenes said...Final battle: Ender is 12, Bean is 8.5 give or take a few months, which would make him 11 when he got married. So you're right. Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
The real question is how old are they at the end of Shadow Puppets?
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Ew.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Isn't the marriage of Bean and Petra at the end of Shadow Puppets?
(Edit.)
Once again, no guarantees, but I'm pretty sure no appreciable amount of time (more than a few months) took place between the wedding and the end of Shadow Puppets. The wedding itself occurs about halfway through the book, but, while I have only read it once, I don't remember any events that took a year.
[ November 23, 2004, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: IdemosthenesI ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'm having problems posting here for some reason, if this is like the third post, it's because it isn't appearing after I post it, sorry.
*Hobbes*
I just re-read this series because I knew it was coming soon, but then OSC had to go and do it right when I fly out to Montana and am seperated from my (complete) collection by 1500 (and 13) miles.
As for timing in Shadow Puppets, take this into account:
The book starts withn Bean and Petra starting out on the lamb, they wander, I think, two months before they go and see Anton, and are married very soon after, and have the child implanted, I think within around a week, by the end, the child still wasn't born, close ot being born, but not there yet, I'd say a year is the longest the book spanned, and 9 months the shortest.
I hope I don't get left out of the proccess because of my fortunate geographic location....
Hobbes Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
They can't have been much older after the wedding because the embryo was implanted shortly thereafter and Petra states at the end of the book that she's "just a little bit pregnant". The man she says this to replies that she needs to get over this falling down business before the baby gets too big. By the descriptions, it sounds like she's between 16 and 23 weeks pregnant. She can feel the baby, but she's not really showing all that much.
So at most, Bean is 13 and Petra is 18. (And that's with the idea that they might have *just* turned 13 and 18...more likely, they're 12 and 17.)
[ November 23, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Carlotta (in SOTH) says that scientists estimated thar Bean would have caught up to normal size with his peers by puberty and then surpassed them. She was hopeful that by puberty - the year he spent with the Delphiki family - that their worst case scenario wouldn't happen.
So, by Carlotta's letter, I estimate Bean was 11-12 the year he lived with his family. Remember, they were at home for a year before Achilles started kidnapping (and the space travel time to get home. So, Bean would have been around 12 when the kidnappings happened. It took about a year for the rescue. And Shadow Puppets picks up "months" after the rescue, so we can safely say Bean was 14 and Petra 18.
Anyway, Carlotta also says that it would be a surprise if Bean lived to 15, so it is neccesary that he be a father before then.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
demosthenese, I think they spent longer than just a few months on Eros. Ender thinks when they land on Eros that it's 5 years until the fleet reaches the bugger homeworld and he comments that he'll only be 15 then. That makes him 10. But then Graff says that he'll be "going on 16".
At the end, Graff says Ender has just turned 12 after the bugger wars are over and Eros is back under control. That means he was there a little over a year.
So if we figure that Bean is 3 years younger, that makes him 9 when Ender is 12. Add the three years for SotH, that makes Bean 12. I don't see how he could be much younger than that by the end of Shadow Puppets...he'd almost have to be nearly 13. Petra is 14 at the beginning of SotH, so she'd be 17 at the end, and probably 18 when they marry since it's several months into SP.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Good points. And somewhere in EG it also says that it is a 3 month 1-way journey to Eros. Presumable then it would be a 3 month journet home.
SOTH also gives some sort of clue (once we've established age at end of EG) where Petra is reflecting on Thai tactics and says that Suri had been "in place in Bangkok" for a year by the time she is in Hyderabad.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Oh, no jeni I didn't mean they only spent a few months total! I meant they spent a few months tops AFTER the final battle. I readily confess that they were there a bit longer before that (though Ender was definitely there longer than the others.)
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
eesh, this gets more and more complex. Great points everyone. jeni you're right, the pregnancy thing is the real issue. As is the line "married a scant three years later" or whatever. So it's really the ages they were at the final battle, plus a scant three years, plus a little bit pregnant (10-20 weeks in my guestimation.)
That still leaves us at 17-18 and 12-13 at the end of Shadow Puppets, right?
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
According to the timelines from way back in the day, the time from when Ender arrived on Eros to the time the final battle took place was just over a year. Remember that the other students didn't get there until a bit later, though. However, as I said, I lost all my notes from those so I can't point to chapter and verse, as it were. I must insist on Ender being eleven at the time of the final battle, though, since he was ten when he arrived, and he had a birthday on Eros, but certainly not two.
Oh! Jackpot! Went back to the book for this one. Hardcover EG. Pg. 204.
"He tried to remember how old he was. Eleven. How many years ago did he turn eleven? How many days? It must have happened here at the command school, but he couldn't remember the day."
Posted by BelladonnaOrchid (Member # 188) on :
I am in agreeance with Narnia as to the general relation of the ages. The only thing that may effect that is when their birthdays are, and I haven't seen anything concrete on that in any of the books that I remember. From everyone's comments so far I think we're looking at a difference of 5 years based on that Bean was two years younger than Ender, and Ender was 3 years younger than Petra, putting them at 12-17 for the scant three years after the third invasion, plus the little bit pregnant (10-20 weeks sounds right, though I've never been pregnant). So depending on when Mr. Card would like to make Petra's birthday, I would say she's nearing 18, and Bean is reaching for 13.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I'm not actually doing any of the RESEARCH. I just summarize well. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
All right! My vague remembrance of math done as I was reading Shadow Puppets wins out again! Go me!
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
I think Bean is 8 at the end of Ender's Shadow. I remember a conversation between him and Graff where Graff calls him a seven year old and he says "I think I'm eight."
In the middle of Shadow Puppets, I recall Bean almost having to duck as he walks through door ways, and thinking about himself being fourteen.
So, roughly six years from the end of the bugger war to the end of Shadow Puppets. Petra was thirteen or fourteen at the end of Ender's game/Ender's Shadow, so that would put her at age twenty.
[ November 23, 2004, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Misha McBride ]
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Wow, forgot about that, Misha. Good memory!
Except, in looking up the quote, it's "I think I'm seven."
Which leaves us in the same spot. Posted by Catseye1979 (Member # 5560) on :
I seem to it being almost a year between the end of the bugger war and Ender's Jeesh getting kidnapped. And about the same tiem from the end of the war and Ender leaving (which go with the fact that Ender's Jeesh was already in Russia when they heard that Ender had left on a colony ship.
I personaly agree to the Petra 17 and Bean 13 line of thought. and as far as that being to young... I don't think I could count how many 13 year old girls I met that were merried with a baby already during my two years in Mexico. So there are still cultures where getting married that young is acceptable.
Posted by FriendlyNeighborhoodWitch (Member # 6317) on :
Misha-hmm...I seem to remember him ducking through doorways and a thought like that, however I thought it was, 'I wonder what it'll be like when I'm fourteen?', as though he was not that age yet.
I think we need to find that scene. If nobody else happens to remember where that is offhand, I think I'm going to make re-reading SotH my Thanksgiving day and 1/2 project.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
demosthenes, yeah, Ender was definitely 11 at the final battle of the fleet, because he had *just* turned 12 after the weeks following.
I'll see if I can find the reference in SP where Bean thinks he's 14. That would be a great reference to get nailed out. If that's the case, that would make Petra 19, depending upon when their birthdays are and what time of year it is.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
This WOULD be while my books (*sob* I miss my books!) are in storage for the year.
Don't mind me, just carry on. Y'all'll crack this thing yet! (And the 13/18 sounds about what I recall, too.)
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I have no idea what age they'd be at by the end, but I would think it'd be best to leave that somewhat to the imagination.... I just think of them as young adultish.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
'kay...I dug through and found where Petra says in SP (page 124 of the paperback) that it was a 'scant three years later' referencing the time from the destruction of the bugger homeworld to the time of the marriage. At the beginning of SotH, she says she's 14. That means that she can't be any older than 17 at the time of the wedding. And by the end of the book, she could be 18, but no older than that, since the pregnancy can't be more than about 20 weeks.
I couldn't find where Bean thinks he's 14, but I don't know how he could be that old. He'd have to be 13 at the oldest.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Still gonna have to put Bean at eleven or twelve. We know how old he is at the time of the Third Invasion. He's eight. A scant three years later, that puts him at eleven. Round up for safety if you like, but he's still nowhere near fourteen. Remember, Petra is older than Ender by at least two, probably three years (He is eleven at final battle, she is fourteen when she goes home.) If Bean were thirteen when she was seventeen (for the wedding), Ender would be about fourteen. That would make Bean only one year younger than Ender. We know this to be false. Bean is several years younger than Ender. Approximately three, in fact. Which, once again, puts him around eleven.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
In SP at the very beginning, Bean was wondering how long he had left - 1 year, 3, 5? Sr. Carlotta has mentioned in SOTH that if Bean died before 15, it would only be a mild surprise. That if Bean lived to 20 it would defy all rational explanation. So, if Bean is estimating between 1-5 years life span remaining, it seems he would be 14 at the beginning of SP.
Edited to include: I can find where Valentine is id'd as 14 before she and Ender take off for the colony, but Petra's age was not id'd. She made the funny about they were kids and had to go to school until they were 17.
Petra did ID herself as returning home at 14 in the beginning of SOTH. But if we subtract 3-4 months for travel and probably a month at least for the earthbound war after the bugger wars, then she would have been 13ish on Eros.
[ November 24, 2004, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]
Posted by Napster-{KD}- (Member # 6967) on :
i read both recently, and i cannot be sure, but i would guess bean is in his pre-teen to early teen area, maybe 14 or 15 at oldest, making petra older, but i am just writing a guess. hope the mystery gets solved!
-Napster-{KD}-
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: So, roughly six years from the end of the bugger war to the end of Shadow Puppets. Petra was thirteen or fourteen at the end of Ender's game/Ender's Shadow, so that would put her at age twenty.
That six years thing is in complete defiance with the "Scant three years later". There's no way three years passed on Eros after the war.
12 and 17 (at the wedding) sounds icky but probably correct. Since we don't know exact birthdays I'd like to round up to 13 and 18 (at the end of "Puppets") for my own peace of mind.
[ November 24, 2004, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Why, PSI? If she's actually over 18 and he's not, that makes it (by current law, at least) worse, neh? Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Well, neither is an American citizen. Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
I tried to find and dig up my books but they've gone AWOL for the time being. I'm working from memory alone, so I'm most probably wrong on the particulars. I do know that Petra hit puberty before she left Eros, in the beginning of SotH she thinks about how she was helped with her first period by a Fleet nurse. And if I'm not mistaken, Bean's voice changed close to the end of SotH while he was training the Thai soldiers.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Misha, We know for a fact that petra was fourteen when she arrive in Armenia, home from the war. We also know that the wedding between Bean and Petra was a "scant three years" after the final battle. The jeesh all returned home within a few months after the final battle, so unless Petra's birthday was on Eros after the battle, she is seventeen at the time she marries Bean. She immediately becomes pregnant, and is no later than early second trimester at the end of the book, so it follows that she is seventeen at the end of Shadow Puppets. As for Bean, We also know him to be about eight at the time of the final battle. The same quote apply, so all we have to do is add three years and a few months. It follows he s either eleven or twelve at the time of the wedding.
End of Shadow Puppets:
Petra: 17 years old (or recently turned 18) Bean: 11 years old (or just turned 12)
Problem solved. Petra's period isn't relevant, because we KNOW she is fourteen on her return home. Bean's voice change could be at any age because he has a unique physiology.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I think it's likely that Bean turned nine before Petra was captured. Using the timeline you linked to we see that Bean's "birthday" is not long after Ender's, in that it's "after" Ender's birthday rather than "before", and since Ender turns 12 right after the League War ends, it stands to reason that Bean would probably turn nine in the following months.
But even so, if Bean had just turned nine when Petra was captured, that would mean he had just turned twelve (thereabouts) before the wedding, so at most he's a couple of months into his thirteenth year at the end of "Puppets". So you are right. He's either a late eleven or an early twelve. But I'm betting on twelve.
Too bad. I so wanted to stretch it to 13.
After looking at it again I realize that (using the three year assumption here) even if Bean hadn't turned twelve by the time of the wedding, he had to have turned twelve directly after it. He's definitely 12. I don't think we will know for sure if Petra is 17 or 18.
[ November 24, 2004, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
All in all, I think you guys gave OSC just what he needed...rough guestimations and citations of your sources. Good job!!
Didn't he have to seriously bluff Alvin's age at the beginning of Crystal City and make several more years pass than we thought? He can do the same thing again. And if Bean is only 11 or 12, then he's still got at least three years to live, if not 5-6, so we're good.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
No, Narnia. It has to be EXACT. Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Unfortunately it can't be exact, because OSC didn't find that mentioning every one of the major (and minor) characters birthdays every single year particularly helped advance the plot or expose the characters. Short-sighted buffoon! Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I don't think this has been pointed out anywhere, but according to p. 15 of the Hardback edition of Shadow Puppets, Bean was 11 when he met his parents.
quote:But having a father and mother show up when you're eleven isn't the same as growing up with them.
Since we know Petra is also 14 at that time, whatever their current ages are, there's probably three years separating them. A lot depends, though, on how much time has passed between SotH and SP. We know it is at least two years:
quote:...but that only meant that they didn't want to give any publicity to the Hegemon, didn't want to boost his reputation or prestige among those who feared China in these years since the conquest of India and Indochina.
If we go by the quote mentioned earlier, saying that it's been three years since Petra was in Russia, then Petra is 17 and Bean is 14 (which fits in to the timeline estimating that Bean would only have a few years left at most after he hit puberty). If a few months passed (as parts of SotH suggest) between when Petra got home and when she was kidnapped, you can safely put them at 18 and 15.
As for Peter, well, I'm guessing 19 or 20, but that's just a guess. He's definitely still a teenager during SotH (there's a passage in the email exchange at the beginning of Ch. 14 that confirms it...sort of).
So...for sake of safety and sanity, I'd say that at the end of Shadow Puppets... Petra 18 Bean 15 Peter 20
[ November 24, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Megan ]
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Yikes! I think we have conflicting quotes, then. Uh Oh! Most be one of those hidden features for ultra-fans Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
Most of this has probably been covered but here's my thoughts,
Petra’s easy so I’ll start with her
quote: But nothing had prepared her for the fact that she had left here as a five-year-old and now was returning at fourteen.
Ch 1 SofH.
We don’t know how long she was home before the abduction but it has to be at least several months.
The quote "and a scant three years later would be married to him" isn't referring to 3 years after the last bugger battle but to 3 years after she was kidnapped.
quote: Even when Ender's jeesh was kidnapped and confined together in Russia, she and Dink bantered with each other just like old times, but she felt no spark.
Through all that time, she would have laughed if anyone suggested that she would fall in love with Bean, and a scant three years later would be married to him
Ch 9 SP
That makes her at least 17/18 when they go to Rotterdam to see Volescu to make babies.
It doesn’t make it clear at the end of the book how far along in her pregnancy Petra is. Some info we so know: 1.She was still suffering from morning sickness in Damascus before Bean goes to confront Achilles and that usually ends at around the 4th month but can last the whole pregnancy; 2.Then there’s her comment as she boards the plane to fly back to meet Bean that she’s “a little pregnant.” That could be taken two ways: either factually i.e. she’s only just pregnant but as morning sickness usually develops at least a month into the pregnancy and with all that’s gone on she’d have to be about 2-3 months; or jokingly i.e. he can clearly see she’s pregnant and therefore she must be showing and further along, say 4-6 months. 3. I have known people, however, who hardly showed at all until they were well towards the end of their pregnancy. As Petra is very fit and unlikely to be carrying excess weight and as the baby probably has Anton’s Key turned, so its unlikely to be big, it could be possible that it’s not obvious that she’s pregnant when she’s 7-8 months along.
So to summarise I reckon Petra is 18/19 allowing for the time from meeting Volescu to the end of SP.
[ November 24, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: cochick ]
Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
Now Bean of course is much more complicated as I get 3 answers depending on which source I use:
1. When Ender finds out Bean’s been made Commander he says:
quote: After all, you’re only 4 years younger than the regular age.
Ch 12 of EG (& Ch18 of ES)
If we assume the earliest age for a Commander before Ender was 11 as used in VBS then that would make Bean 7 then.
We know from ES the following times have passed before the beginning of SotH:
BS = 8dys after Ender left (Ch 21); BS to Tactical = 4mths (Ch 21) (intro says 2mths from BS to ISL but doesn’t mention the 2mths from ISL to Tactical); At Tactical = 3mths (Ch 21 intro.); Tactical to Command = 4mths (Ch 21 intro. & Ch 22); Time spent training at Command before Ender joined them = ?; Time spent training with Ender = ?; Time spent during battles = ?; Time between final battle and war on earth = ?; War on earth = 5dys (Ch 24); Spent spent before leaving for home = ?.
This all comes to at least 1 year not counting the ?’s. The training and battle have to have been at least several months if not longer. Then there was Graff’s trial and Ch 15 of EG talks about Ender waiting "through the empty months" before "One by one, his friends reluctantly left him," as they were called home. (I can’t see Bean rushing off, can you?) . So I reckon it’s more likely to be 2 years at least making him 9 years old when he arrives back on earth.
2. The above contradicts the Bean's statement when he's talking to Graff and says:
quote: I think I'm seven
Ch 22 of ES
We know that Bean was only 5 when he was sent to BS and if we assume he only spent 1 year there and became Commander at 6 then he could have been 7 at this time (adding 1 year for travelling from BS and Tactical School). We’d then need to add another year for the time training at Command, the battles and everything before he returns home. So he’d be 8 when he got home.
3.
quote: But having a father and mother show up when you're eleven isn't the same as growing up with them.
Ch 1 of SP
Infers that Bean was 11 when he got back to his parents which again contradicts the idea that Bean was only 7 when he was at Command School, unless it took 4 years to train them with Ender, battle and return home.
There are no more references I can find to his age in SotH or SP just to his growth and to Petra’s age. So to get from his age at the end of ES to that at the end of SP we need to use the information and assumptions we have for Petra i.e. time from arriving home to abductions, 3yrs from abductions to marriage and time from Volescu meeting to end of SP. For Petra I’ve allowed 4/5 years total.
So for Beans age at the end of SP that gives me either:
Option 1: 9yrs + 4/5yrs = 13/14yrs; Option 2: 8yrs + 4/5yrs = 12/13yrs; or Option 3: 11yrs + 4/5yrs = 15/16yrs. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
now, cochick -- you wouldn't be implying that Scott is a little inconsistent, now would you?
FG
Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
YEP! FG
SORRY UNCLE ORSON (I actually had included that but managed to miss it out when I pasted my reply)
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
Uncle Orson wants me to thank you all very very much. He's trying to finish up Shadow of the Giant over Thanksgiving, and you've given him great stuff.
BIG THANKS!!! Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Yippee! Does this mean an early Christmas present?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Yay! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy, like I was a tiny part of something BIG! I love that!! (You guys did all the work though. )
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think he's the one WE should be thanking.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Uncle Orson wants me to thank you all very very much. He's trying to finish up Shadow of the Giant over Thanksgiving, and you've given him great stuff.
Whoa.
It's a weird feeling knowing that he might be writing the book right now...!
--j_k
Posted by FriendlyNeighborhoodWitch (Member # 6317) on :
Aw shucks.
I'm sure we're all glad to be of service!
Posted by Just another Dharma bum (Member # 6879) on :
Very cool, I'm so excited for this book!
Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
Kristine, I’m just glad to know that Scott is finishing up Shadow of the Giant. Yeah!! Thank you for the news!
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Just preordered my copy.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
Um, guys, you're missing a point about Bean. He is both mentally and physically much older than Petra, so his actual age is meaningless, when saying he's too young to marry Petra and have kids.
Posted by ChaosTheory (Member # 7069) on :
Well Bean being around 8 at the final battle in EG and with about 5 or so years with the leauge war he is around 13.
Is it just me or does OSC tend to write about young relationships in the Homecoming series Nafai and Luet were around 13-15 also, as well as the other characters (Issib & Hushidh come to mind) also fairly young. Same with Miro & Valentine/Jane. I am not implying anything but its just something i've noticed over the last few days. All due respect, OSC is my favorite author and few other books can even come close to the Enderverse and Homecoming series.
Posted by Napster-{KD}- (Member # 6967) on :
yay! if the book gets on the shelves before april i can get the book for my b-day! (that is assuming that after mr. card finishes writing the book, getting it edited and published, and then becoming a book!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Lol, OSC is going to hate me for mentioning this. But, the one well known Sci Fi historical precendent for this kind of relationship with the age difference and the younger guy, is Anakin and Amidala, though they were still a bit older. I think. (I'm sure the star wars gurus know exactly how old Anakin was when they got married.) But I heard the Wierd Al song going through my head over the weekend where "Look at him hitting on the queen, though he's just 9 and she's 14, he's probably going to marry her someday..." And I started mumbling (well internally) 9, hmm, 14, hmmm... oh that's close to the Bean-Petra age gap!
AJ
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Well, if OSC doesn't hate you for it, I'll pick up that torch. Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
quote: Lol, OSC is going to hate me for mentioning this. But, the one well known Sci Fi historical precendent for this kind of relationship with the age difference and the younger guy, is Anakin and Amidala, though they were still a bit older. I think. (I'm sure the star wars gurus know exactly how old Anakin was when they got married.) But I heard the Wierd Al song going through my head over the weekend where "Look at him hitting on the queen, though he's just 9 and she's 14, he's probably going to marry her someday..." And I started mumbling (well internally) 9, hmm, 14, hmmm... oh that's close to the Bean-Petra age gap!
Well, the ages 9 and 14 are from SW:Episode 1 and since Episode 2 takes place about 10 years after that, then they would be about 19 and 24 when they got married. That's not exactly the same as getting married at 12 and 17.
But anyway, I don't really have a problem with it. The emotional maturity of Bean and Petra is much higher than your average 12 and 17 year old.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*does the happy dance*
Posted by ChaosTheory (Member # 7069) on :
Yeah it says on pg.#5 of SP - "But having a father and mother show up when your 11 isn't the same as growing up with them."
This of course is Bean commenting on how he met his 'technically' parents the Delphikis. Bean met the Delphikis with Nikolai after the final battle at the end of Enders Shadow, could this mean that Bean was not 8 but instead 11 and adding about 5 years with the league war would mean that he's around 16 give or take.
[ November 30, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: ChaosTheory ]
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Whoa whoop, and I missed it It's nice to know that the book is on its way.
Oh man, what am I going to do after the series ends??? Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
Look man, the series will never end. It's too good. While waiting inbetween played video games and read asimov and hubbard books.
Posted by Napster-{KD}- (Member # 6967) on :
lol, sid. i don't want it to die, either. the series truly is too good!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Um, guys, you're missing a point about Bean. He is both mentally and physically much older than Petra, so his actual age is meaningless, when saying he's too young to marry Petra and have kids.
Mentally old isn't exactly the same as emotionally old. He can be the smartest guy around, have a big body, and still be emotionally 12 years old. Growing quickly doesn't automatically bestow one with experience.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Also, he's not physically older -- just more developed.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
With what's happening with the Robot/Empire/Foundation series of Asimov, I wouldn't be surprised if the Enderverse outlived OSC.
quote:Also, he's not physically older -- just more developed.
Um, yes he is. You can't be a 12 year old commando and live to tell about it if you're not physically up to snuff, no matter what agent Cody Banks tells ya.
That's also why he's dying. Think of him like the Robin Williams character Jack, with a superbrain and a workout routine.
The only thing to consider is the emotional growth, but that was accelerated for all of the kids in Ender's jeesh. When you fight a few wars, you tend to mature quickly.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
No matter how developed he is, he is not physically old. Physically aged, possibly, but his body is still no more than about 12 years old.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
As in the length of time he has existed, yes, but that's not what 'physically old' means. Physically old is more like he has the body of a __ year old.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I think that's exactly what he means. He has the body of a 12-year old who hasn't hit a growth spurt. He still has a soft spot in the back of his head that hasn't fused. So he's not "physically old" like the kids with Progeria (or kinda like the Jack character) whose cells age rapidly. He has Anton's key, which is something wholly different.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
NEW PAGE!!!!
Oops. Wrong thread. Sorry.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
He still has the soft spot because his brain is still growing. If it fused, his brain would grow too large for his skull.
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
ChaosTheory,
When the time is called for people to marry young, then that happens. Bean and petra got married so that they could (hopefully) have a family before Bean died. Nafai and Luet & Issib and Hushidh got married early in their lives because they wanted to make it official that they blonged to each other. This was also a way to signify that their marriage was permanant.
Think back in the 1700's, poeple got married and had kids and the age of 14 because it was a neccesity, people died earlier. If you wanted to raise a family back then you had to start early.
sry, didn't mean to preach.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
His brain is still growing with the rest of his body as if he hadn't hit a 12-year growth spurt yet. What are we arguing about?
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
I was about to post something 2 minutes ago, and forgot. Now I remember; "The contadiction" of Bean saying he's seven just 2-3 days after the bugger wars and then meeting his parents at age 11 is not a contradiction. Remember it was never certain whether or not Bean would be returned to his parents. He is a ward of the state and the state has the final say so it is entirely onceivable for bean to have stuck around for 4 years (including transportation time and possible time spent on earth before returning to his parents). I also agree that Bean probably thanks to Anton's key still looks Boyish dispite his height.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I'm bumping this so I can go through it and match up people here with the credit given in the acknowledgments in the book.....
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I've already done that (too much time on my hands). I think I've figured out all but one or two. I was going to start a thread asking who's who, but I thought it would seem like shameless self-promotion since I'm in there too. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Hey Farmgirl, when you figure it all out, let me know. I think I've got most of them...Carrie, Megan, Shan, Porter, Neo-dragon, Narnia...but then I'm not sure about |demosthenes|, PSI, Stray....and everyone else that helped.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Sent you an e-mail, Narnia. I think I got them all figured out now...
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Ha, yeah, right, bet you can't guess who I am...
I haven't actually gotten to see my copy yet, as I had it shipped home-home (instead of school-home). I'm going to the bookstore very soon, however, just to ogle.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
There's only one name which I haven't been able to link to a screen-name. Anyone know who Samuel is?
I haven't gotten my copy yet either. Mail's so slow coming from the States. It's okay though, I'm too busy to spend much time reading it right now anyway.
[ March 08, 2005, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I guessed that IdemosthenesI was Samuel -- but that is just a guess and I could be wrong.
btw, neo-dragon, you're not the first poster to this board to have that last name....
FG
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm pretty sure that IdemosthenesI is Nathan. He's a moderator at philoticweb.net. He was also credited in Shadow Puppets (though it doesn't say his screen-name there either) for making the timeline comparing Game and Shadow. That is, unless I'm getting him confused with someone else.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Uh - unless I'm very confused - Nathan is T_Smith, unless he has more than one screenname.
FG
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't even see any posts by T_Smith in this thread. I'm almost positive that Nathan is IdemosthenesI... *shrug*
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Nathan has dozens of screen names.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well that explains that. I still don't know who Samuel is though.
[ March 09, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
I don't mind you all saying that your who in the aknoledge ments. I'd like to know, to know who I should be in more awe of. Heh. You guys are awsomely lucky and good.
Posted by ChaosTheory (Member # 7069) on :
Hey I'm Samuel Sevlie... My 6th grade teacher (he got me caught on OSC's books a while ago) still can't believe that I'm in the acknowledments.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Finally, the identity of Samuel! Now I can match all of the Hatrackers in the acknowledgments with their screen name. I'm Jason, by the way. My friends were all pretty impressed when I told them. Even the ones who haven't even read Ender's Game (despite my constant nagging). You would think that seeing their friend's name in the latest book would be enough to finally get them to read the series... As it is, only one of my close friends owns and has read every Ender/Bean book at my recommendation, but I've gotten several to at least read Ender's Game.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote:I'm pretty sure that IdemosthenesI is Nathan. He's a moderator at philoticweb.net. He was also credited in Shadow Puppets (though it doesn't say his screen-name there either) for making the timeline comparing Game and Shadow. That is, unless I'm getting him confused with someone else.
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