For those of you who have read the book, did you enjoy the final chapter of Shadow of the Giant as much as I did?
Personally, reading about a young Ender again, if only for two pages, felt like reuniting with an old childhood friend.
I was already pouring more attention into this last chapter than I was into the entire book (not that I wasn't reading it with full interest, of course.) But as soon as I began going through that letter from Peter to Valentine, I felt like I was going through a lost chapter of Ender's Game itself.
The line, "I know who wrote it. If he can speak for the buggers, surely he can speak for me," was particularily great, since it was quoted directly from one of final pages of Ender's Game, and it made the Shadow books seem less like a parallel series and more like novels necessary for expanding - and completing - the story.
Also, the fact that Ender never knew about the final fate of Bean and his children (and his potential presence in the universe three thousand years later) was also some very well-done set-up for the linking books, and makes me even more anxious to read that story.
Although SOTG was a little more political than I hoped it would be, I loved it and I'm glad to have set aside this day to read it. The closing chapter was easilly my favorite, and it contains a series of moments that will forever shine in my memory of Ender's universe.
Posted by NinjaBirdman (Member # 7114) on :
Yeah, I think the book's ending was just about perfect. I also liked how Bean had a hand in setting up Jane. Great book. Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
While it was cool that Peter and Petra got married, I found it outside of my own image of Peter. I always pictured him dying a familyless virgin, having lost all hope a personal life in a quest for Power, leaving good old Wang Mu to redeem him 3000 years later.
Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
For some reason I always imagined Peter and Petra getting together. So the ending was was exactly what I wanted. Come on, do you think Momma Wiggin would let Peter stay unmarried? It's all she's been talking about throughout the whole series.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Haha, true. Good thing old Petra WAS there. I never would though Bean would leave her. If he hadn't, what would Momma Wiggin have done?
Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
I got the EG out and read the last chapter immediately after I finished SOTG. I loved the way it ended!!
Posted by Sammi (Member # 7461) on :
Absolutely brilliant ending. With OSC's typical loose ends dangling a tantalizing carrot in front of us for a follow on book. I found that the final book brought each of the characters to a point in which they had become complete people, as opposed to brilliant children. They had learned finally that it wasn't all about them...it was about all of them, about each other. Each did what was best for those around them...leadership through love.
Posted by Nestor (Member # 7460) on :
As soon as Bean gave Petra the divorce papers, it became apparent to me that Petra and Peter would marry. I dont know why I thought it, but I did, and how funny that I was actually right.
Excellent ending, im now re-reading Speaker For The Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind. Its interesting, I had forgotten everyone refers to Ender as "Ender the Xenocide" and "the most terrible human being in the history of mankind" so much for gratitude for saving humanity, eh?
However irrational, I cant help thinking and hoping that Bean hops through the future 3000 years and meets up with Valentine and the strange people created during faster than light travel.
-Nestor
Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
It's Enders on fault people hate him. Nobody forced him to write Hive Queen.
Posted by Sammi (Member # 7461) on :
Petra and Peter was the logical progression after Petra and Bean ended. Plus, OSC put the foreshadow at the very beginning in which Peter wonders what it would be like to have Petra look at him the way she looks at Bean...then quickly corrects Petra to A WOMAN. If Bean couldn't stay with Petra, I feel good knowing she lived happily with the Peter that had evolved by the end of SoTG.
[ March 04, 2005, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Sammi ]
Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
I'm not sure why, but I always imagined Peter would marry Petra.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
The events of Children of the Mind form a logical progression from Xenocide and even Speaker, but it doesn't mean they aren't ...unusual.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
BAH!ONMUINS*Y(HNE&(*#**()@ I haven't read the book yet! And its not availiable at my local chapters!!!! Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
Poor Sid. I know how you feel. I had to wait over almost a year to get Crystal City. I had to give up hatrack for awhile.
Posted by Nestor (Member # 7460) on :
It's not necessarily Ender's fault that the people hate him. When he wrote the Hive Queen, it showed how the people has misunderstood the buggers, but the fact remains that Ender saved the human race, and people seem to have forgotten the fact that without Ender, they probably wouldnt be around.
-Nestor
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Throughout the entire series, I have been waiting for the atrocities that Peter the Hegemon was going to commit. My memory from Ender's Game tells me that Peter the Hegemon commited horrible atrocities, but in the end turned it all to the benefit of mankind. I thought that Peter was more like Mikhail in Songmaster. Am I remembering wrong?
Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
I kept waiting for the same thing. I even remember reading about these atrocities in First Meeting in the Enderverse.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
I really enjoyed the ending to this one; maybe its just the image of 70+ year old Peter sitting down at a console with this younger character we haven't seen for years on the other side. (MindGame --> Jane was great-- but My favorite part of this book, though, has to be when the jeesh was reunited, with Graff and Mazer, but I guess that's for another thread.)
You know, I really liked this book, moreso than Hegemon and Puppets. Maybe its because I'm older now *shrug*
--j_k
Posted by LordBlackfire (Member # 7472) on :
I'd like Card to reunite the Hive Queen Ender rescued with Bean and his kids in a future story. Perhaps a story that takes up the idea Graff had about other aliens exiting and having ill intentions. Bean and/or his kids might have to locate the Hive Queen Ender rescued to save the human race from another alien threat.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
He can't reunite the Hive Queen with Bean's kids because they've never been together before.
Posted by ostyinmi (Member # 7218) on :
I really feel like the ending of SOTG was the best ending I have ever read in an OSC book! I was almost in tears as I read about Peter talking with Ender. I was just so very perfect. In a way I almost hope OSC ends the series here and does not write a linking book. We really have the forshadow that Bean will never beable to come back and it seems to all be wrapped up very well. I think another book would just give more loose ends to wonder about!
Posted by Mark (Member # 6393) on :
You can all thank me. The Ender/Peter conversation was my idea. Third paragraph in the acknowledgements page.
[ March 10, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Mark ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
The one thing that happened to me was that the emotional climax of the novel was when Bean left Petra, undoubtedly since that was the emotional part that hit the closest to home with me. The end of the book read a lot like the end of a roller coaster, you've had the thrills, chills and spills, now we just need to slow down so we don't fly through the station. Which wasn't necessarily something wrong with it, just how I experienced it.
Hobbes Posted by Quimby2999 (Member # 7044) on :
Bean's letter to Graff. Graff's letter to Bean. I shed a single tear. Posted by Jqueasy (Member # 7085) on :
**** Spoilers **** I agree the ending had so much goodness. I felt like it was the end of a chapter in my life reading the ender books, and it couldnt of ended much better than it did. But then I find out that there are most likley going to be at least 2 more books, shadows in flight and the one about beans missing kid. I never really like the political stuff in the shadow series but the characters are what made me push through it, and was rewarded at the end with the ender peter incounter. And the fact that bean could still make a return in later novels. Maybe i will read the enders series again soon.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I won't be reading it before a long time, but I still want to know... Why the heck did Bean leave Petra ? I can't imagine those two getting a divorce... EDIT : come on, people ! If I ask for spoiling it can't be bad to do it !
[ March 11, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posted by Jasmine (Member # 7370) on :
actually it was kinda bean who forced her to get a divorce. she planned on leaving earth with him and the babies. But bean did the divorce papers stuff.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
Bean was pulling a Mazer Rackham.
Posted by SailorNaboo (Member # 7604) on :
Anna, Since this is a spoiler thread and you have asked, I'll tell you. Bean wanted Petra to feel free to remarry someday (no matter how much she THOUGHT she never would or even could- emotionally) and there were also custody issues of the children that were in the legal divorce document.
This part isn't stated in the book, but in my opinion, Bean had all of these legalities taken care of so she wouldn't start a new custody fight that Bean most likely wouldn't live though (they were giving him 6 months left in earth gravity by about this time).
Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
I knew Petra and Peter were gonna marry I don't remeber how. Maybe I read it somewhere but I just knew it... But still it irks me if feels like Petra was betraying Bean, but I suppose not, since Bean wanted that. Also why didn't Bean write and thorugh ansible?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Also why didn't Bean write and thorugh ansible?"
The simple answer: at relativistic speeds, Petra would grow old and die in the time it would take him to compose a letter.
(Note: of course, practically, this is why ansible communication with a traveling starship should be impossible. While ansible communication between planets might make some sense, ansible communication between a time-shifted traveler and a static point should still remain completely impossible.)
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well, that's not exactly true, Tom. Relitivistic effects aren't THAT drastic. It would only take Bean a few minutes compose a letter. A few minutes for Bean couldn't be more than days for Petra. But keeping up communication with the time differential would be pointless. Not much would happen on the ship even while years pasts for Petra. Besides, it was easier for everyone if they all just went about their lives as if Bean really was dead, and dead people don't write to you. If Bean had kept sending letters, Petra would probably never be able to go on with her life and marry Peter and be happy. Bean knew this.
Anyway, the final chapter was exactly what I've wanted since I read Shadow of the Hegemon! I'm glad that Peter and Petra got together. I always assumned that Peter died alone, and I thought that was a shame. I glad that he did have a family
[ March 20, 2005, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
Yeah I like the answer she would never marry again. But also I know that they can talk. Ender and Valentine talked to their mom. Remember in book it said that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"But also I know that they can talk."
Yep. Which is, again, baffling. Live conversation by ansible should not be possible, but y'know.... Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
Uch come onb you know I meant write letters. Not talk, here I'll quote from sotg..pg 355 first 2 paraggraphs and more...oh wait what am i saying Ender and Peter had a whole convorsations for the book thing!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Guys, Ender and Val wrote to their mom AFTER they arrived at the colony, therefore, no more relativistics effects.
Posted by Agnes Bean (Member # 7614) on :
Everyone has basically already covered what I loved about the ending/last chapter of SotG (tantalizing loose ends, Peter and Petra’s marriage and most importantly Peter and Ender’s last conversation). So I’ll just add that I also found the last section, with Petra by Peter’s grave thinking about Peter and Bean absolutely spot on. It really resonated with me, down to the last sentence, which was perfect in a way few last sentences are. My hat’s off to you, OSC.
Posted by Quimby2999 (Member # 7044) on :
Seems Petra falls too easily for geniuses. First Dink (EG a/ ES), then Ender (SotH), then Bean (SP a/ SotG), then Peter (SotG). Once she's done with one genius she moves on to the next more intelligent guy. (Except Peter of course, but by this time the other three options were off the planet) She couldn't just marry one of those guys of perfectly average intelligence (after all there were like . . . one or two of 'em). Personally I liked the idea of Peter marrying Virlomi. It would have been a grand way for him to conquer the world and it could account for all those "atrocities" that the Hegemon commits that are spoken about in later (or would in be earlier?) books.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Personally I liked the idea of Peter marrying Virlomi. It would have been a grand way for him to conquer the world and it could account for all those "atrocities" that the Hegemon commits that are spoken about in later (or would in be earlier?) books.
Except that Peter's not an idiot. In fact, I was disappointed in Alai for marrying that poor crazy lady.
Posted by AB (Member # 7458) on :
I was also disappointed with Alai's decision to marry Virlomi. I suppose there is the "young virgin boy confronted with lovely naked woman" argument, but I'm just not buying it. There was also a checkmate sort of situation with the "I;ll either walk out in my clothes or without them." However, there must have been someone in that station that could put her clothes back on her. Plus, Alai could have chosen to just pull out of India all together in response to the threat.
I also want to add that I hated what OSC did to Virlomi's character. Not that it didn't make sense that she went insane, but I really liked her and I was really sad to see her fall so very far. I know that the fall only makes her more believable and human, but for some reason it hurt to see her descend into madness. I would have liked to see more of her redeption as a colony leader - but then again I don't want to add more books to Mr. Card's list. I'd really rather see Pastwatch: Flood, and Master Alvin (please tell me it really didn't end that way in Crystal City!!!).
I was also surprised that we were not made aware exactly which atrocities were considered to be Peter's fault. Certainly there was much killing in the final wars between India/China/Calif-state (?) - maybe those losses were ascribed to Peter for not intervening soon enough? Or maybe people got Peter and Achilles mixed up? People do have a way of ascribing things to people that they didn't really do.
My favorite seen was the flood. Reminded me of Raiders of the Lost Ark 3.
I was a bit miffed by Peter's redemption as uber-daddy and Petra's willingness to marry him and have five (5!!!) more kids. Peter had no training in relating to one-year olds. I know he loved Ender and all (till valentine stole him away!!!) but really - that was not believable for me at all.
Finally, I am not sure how all the threads tie together. I would like to see what happens to the ninth child. I'm wondering if Bean's progeny and Volescu's evil is related to the descolardores, of if they are a truly separate species. Certainly the universe is wide enough for the descolardores to show up on their own. I guess I have to just sit here and wait to find out!!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote: I know that the fall only makes her more believable and human, but for some reason it hurt to see her descend into madness
I think that's what Card was going for. Sometimes characters aren't meant to be liked. At best, they invoke feelings of pity. At worst, extreme annoyance or hatred. Just look at Randi...
Posted by Spondee (Member # 7622) on :
Hi, Newbie alert!
But does anyone think the Descolada might just be the cure for Bean's condition? After all, the genetic tweak applied to the Godspoken of Path sounds like they may have given Anton's key a little jiggle without actually turning it.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
What amused me the most about the ending was that America was the last holdout from joining the New Hegemony or whatever Pete was calling it. I can just see the rest of the world saying to America, "We are peaceful, free, and democratic now, why don't you join us?" and the American President answering "Why do we need to? You finally joined us." It fits that whole 'City on a Hill,' 'Manifest Destiny' thing we've got going.
I have to wonder, though, if America would ever fully join, since even in Children of the Mind one of the worlds Peter/Ender (or PEnder?) visits has an 'American' quarter.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I seriously doubt that America held out for 3000 years.
Posted by urbanX (Member # 1450) on :
what I find to be truely amussing is Peter could be hegemon, but wasn't old enough to be America's prez.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
Reminds me of a robin williams joke about the French for some odd reason: "F you americans! We don't need you! Oh look the Germans are here... We love the Americans!"
Posted by michaels333 (Member # 7631) on :
Although I hate to say it, I was a bit disappointed by the ending of SotG. While the information presented in it is priceless, it is information that I feel should have been left to our imagination. After reading all of the Shadow books, Ender has been immortalized. His reputation should have been left to legend, in my opinion, not presented as just Peter's little brother. But that's just my opinion.
I also agree with the Peter/Petra marriage; it was pretty inevitable, however I would have liked to seen it left to reading between the lines. We all knew it in the last chapter before it is said as fact... I think it would have been best to stay that way.
These are just my rants though, I really enjoyed the book. I just would have liked to see more of the "Ender's Game" mysticism.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:You can all thank me. The Ender/Peter conversation was my idea. Third paragraph in the acknowledgements page. [Smile]
You know, I didn't mention it before, but I'm actually kinda jealous. Your contribution resulted in a whole chapter (and a very good one, too). Mine resulted in exactly 3 lines.
Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
Ha you guys are soo lucky and smart I mean I'm in awe. That yu contributed to maiing the book, ifd it's 3 lines or a chapter it's amazinmg. I mean it's all of ours dreams that OSc decides to like somethin we said and use it.
Posted by Mark (Member # 6393) on :
LOL, I KNOW. My dream as well. Heh, I apoligise if I'm comming off a bit arrogant here. You can thank me AND OSC. Afterall, he did write the book.
That's really neat though Neo. Which 3 lines were those?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm credited in the acknowledgments for finding a continuity error between EG and SotG. Basically, OSC, as brilliant as we all know he is (no sarcasm there, I swear!), had forgotten that Mazer was supposed to have left Earth. So the 3 lines on page 13 starting with Han saying something like "Everyone knows you piloted the first colony ship." were added after I brought up the issue. See this thread for the whole story I was thrilled beyond belief for all the weeks after I was told I'd be in the acknowledgments, while I waited for the book to come out. So you see, it wasn't any brilliance on my part. I was just lucky enough to have noticed it when he posted the first few chapters of the manuscript.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
That was fun. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Yeah, AntiCool is also mr_porteiro_head. He helped sort out the continuity error, and he's the other guy who's credited for it.
Posted by Seventh Daughter (Member # 7642) on :
Besides being really sad and happy at the same time (something that happens whenever I get to the end of a really good book), I was mainly thinking: What about that lousy so-and-so, Randi?!
But a little less than a week after reading SotG I went to the Joseph-Beth Booksellers Orson Scott Card signing in Pittsburgh, and got some answers. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I assume you mean the book about Ender meeting her.
Posted by Seventh Daughter (Member # 7642) on :
Yeah. I was all set to ask about her, and before Mr. Card began taking questions he mentioned the upcoming book. It would have been kind of a let down if I wasn't so excited about reading the new book.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
It was I who months ago started a thread called Peter and Petra which I am sure someone else could find if they have time, in which I proposed that the two would end up married together after Bean was gone. I Win!
It is clear that the fact of the super splicer and Jane's ability to transport ships instantly to destinations makes it certain that Bean, a forth alein species will soon be on Lusitainia.
As for the last of Bean's children, we must assume that whatever world he went to after a few thousand years to compete will have Bean's decendants as the sole or the dominant species and they are likely either a strong threat or a cabal behind the scenes of the hundred worlds.
The super splicer that heals Bean could well be used to end the threat of these super-men.
However a thing occured to me when the image of Bean as a growing brain inside a great container came up. What if he were given knowlege of what Jane does? How long or at what point might he not aquire the ability to move outside and recreate himself? It seems possible under the rules described. The Descoladores and Bean's species will be the foes in the next of the Ender Books, though I guess they will be Peter Books! The next question is who will Bean marry? My vote... Quara! That girl needs to get laid so bad I scream it at the Book and Bean is used to Bitchiness. Remember I am batting 1000!
BC
Posted by Quimby2999 (Member # 7044) on :
quote: It seems possible under the rules described. The Descoladores and Bean's species will be the foes in the next of the Ender Books, though I guess they will be Peter Books! The next question is who will Bean marry? My vote... Quara! That girl needs to get laid so bad I scream it at the Book and Bean is used to Bitchiness. Remember I am batting 1000!
There's so many things wrong with that I don't where to start. So I won't.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Oh I don't know I started a "What Quara really needs..." thread long ago, she so has to get over her unnatural lust for Miro and her step father Ender/Peter.
Anyway OSC has said he is reluctant to use the super splicer to save Bean, however it is kind of a catch 22 for him, if they do not have the know how, the ship will not slow down nee? So perhaps he will slow it down for the children, okay fine, but there is no reason to kill Bean off to show that he is no David Eddings, there is a reasonable expectation of Bean living!
I agree with killing off the hero and aging them and giving them wives and children, but Bean is like 16 or so, seems to me he could use another lifetime very well. What if the Descoladores or some other threat materializes that requires all the races to fight with all the skill and furry that Bean can bring to bere, after all that is what we missed with the later Ender Books, the brilliant space conflicts leading to victory against impossible odds!
BC
Posted by jongo05 (Member # 7580) on :
I have a hard time seeing Bean's ability used to fight the Descaloredes. Whatever he stops his ship for, I see Beans kids doing more than Bean himself. Three of Beans children together have an enormous intellect that could do what Bean alone couldn't I think.
Posted by qirien (Member # 7638) on :
Actually, I was thinking that, with no cure in sight and Bean nearing his end, he might decide that the children deserve to at least know something of what "real life" on a planet is like, thus landing on Lusitania. But he makes them promise (or they decide on their own) not to have children until a cure is found . . . but falling in love is inevitable, so one of the children ends up joining Os Filhos with their loved one (I can see Bean giving his children a sort of pseudo-Catholic upbringing). Is a cure found? Maybe, but maybe not. If anyone could find it, though, it'd be Bean's children along with the Lusitania researchers.
Posted by val (Member # 7687) on :
It's been about a year since I read the books about Andrew on Lusitania, but if I remember correctly, the Descalordes could actually re--write human genes. Could that ability eventally develope into a cure -- re-writing Anton's key for Bean and the children? It wouldn't reverse his growth, but it would at least stop it.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
Which wasn't necessarily something wrong with it, just how I experienced it. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)