I was just wondering how Mr. Card came up with the Battle School Slang in the Ender books. Did he make them up or are they actual words? I made my logon name after one. Theres just something cool about using it after a sentance.. Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Neh is a word in (at least) both Portugese and Japanese. In Portugese, it is short for "não é", or "isn't it". Many people believe that the Japanese word actually comes from the Portugese back in the days when the Portugese and Dutch traded with the Japanese a lot. But I've known Japanese to get upset at that idea.
Posted by Verai (Member # 7507) on :
Kuso!
Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
quote:Many people believe that the Japanese word actually comes from the Portugese back in the days when the Portugese and Dutch traded with the Japanese a lot. But I've known Japanese to get upset at that idea.
Because Japanese language came from Chinese. Kanji is basically Chinese. Japanese simplified Kanji, then Katakana and Hiragana were added to the Japanese language we know now.
On the other hand, Japanese culture has had many influences from foreign countries, and Portugal is one of them because of the work of the Portuguese missionaries. One good example is Tempura. Tempura originally came from Portugal. I hope everyone in Japan knows that!
Neh: If I remember correctly, OSC likes to read foreign language dictionaries. I heard him talk about a Russian word he used once that turned out not to be a good idea.
There’re many Japanese in the Battle school. Check out The Philotic Web’s encyclopedia section if you haven’t already: http://www.philoticweb.net/books/encyclopedia.phtml Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Japanese has words that definitely come from either Portugese or Spanish. The Japanese word for bread is "pan", for example.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Thai has a word similar to "neh" as well. It's "na" and is used at the end of a sentence to convey "understand?"
Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
Many times you can tell a Japanese word came from a foreign country because it is written in Katakana. “Pan” is written in Katakana which tells you the origin is not Japan. Katakana indicates foreign origin. (it’s that simple).
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Many people believe that the Japanese word actually comes from the Portugese back in the days when the Portugese and Dutch traded with the Japanese a lot.
Personally, I don't think there's any evidence for that. Japanese has many sentence-final particles that change the tone or meaning of a sentence. For example, putting "ka" at the end of a sentence makes it a question, and putting "yo" makes it more emphatic. "Ne" fits in perfectly well with this system, and I am inclined to think it is native to the language.
quote:Because Japanese language came from Chinese.
Point of clarification: the Japanese writing system came from Chinese. The Japanese language itself is not even related to the Chinese language, or any other language that linguists have so far been able to identify. It is an isolate, for the moment not assigned to any language family.
quote:Katakana indicates foreign origin. (it’s that simple).
No, it's not "that simple". The writing of foreign words in katakana is a general tendency, not an absolute rule.
In addition to writing foreign words, katakana is also used to write onomatopoeic words. It is sometimes used to add emphasis, much like using italics in English. Names are sometimes in katakana even if they are native Japanese names.
Some foreign words are not always written in katakana. "Tempura" comes from Portuguese, but it is usually written with the kanji "ten", meaning "heaven", and the hiragana characters for "pu" and "ra". "Tabako", the word for cigarette, which was derived from "tobacco", is written in hiragana as often as not. I've even seen it written in kanji, but still pronounced "tabako".
And any "rules" you may know about when to use katakana are of recent invention anyway. Before about a hundred years ago, the rules were completely different.
[ March 16, 2005, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by Neh (Member # 7534) on :
What about any of the other words? Anyone know where jeesh came from?
Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
I simply tried to explain the basics. I was being facetious when I added “I hope everyone in Japan knows that!” BTW, Tempura is all in Kanji (天婦羅) but sometimes “pu” and “ra” are written in Katakana for easy writing (I guess). There are other Kanji for “pura” but I’m not going there.
When I am asked about the Japanese language that’s how I always explain it. Most people are not interested in detailed or complicated explanations. They are simply curious. I prefer not to do an extensive explanation of the Japanese language. Languages are living creatures and always evolving, in ways both good and bad.
quote: Names are sometimes in katakana even if they are native Japanese names.
Yap, just to make their name sound and look “cool”. I am sad about this trend but I’m not young anymore. Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
From The Philotic Web
quote: jeesh slang: Troops, army (Arabic: Jaish). This term was widely used to refer to the 12 individuals who played in the Third Bugger Invasion, also known as "Ender's Jeesh:"
Here are some Japanese words: kanhco, imo (I think it was spelled eemo), kuso, kintama, and soko noke.
Russian: goffno, nuzhnik, and shtuka.
[ March 17, 2005, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: accio ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:BTW, Tempura is all in Kanji (天婦羅)
Interesting. I've never seen it written that way before.
quote:When I am asked about the Japanese language that’s how I always explain it. Most people are not interested in detailed or complicated explanations. They are simply curious. I prefer not to do an extensive explanation of the Japanese language.
Perfectly understandable. But when you said it was "that simple", I feared that some people might read that and think they had just learned some absolute rule that would never fail them. And I wanted to clarify for anyone who may care--a beginning Japanese student, for example--that it's more of a highly useful guideline than an absolute rule. It's usually the case that foreign words are written in katakana and native words are not, but if you search long enough, you can find plenty of exceptions to confound the beginning student.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:"Tempura" comes from Portuguese
That one's new to me. I am ... skeptical.
Granted, I first encountered tempura in Brazil, but it was made by a Japanese-Brazilian woman who grew up in a Japanese community in souther Brazil. She made all kinds of Japanese dishes for us.
In other words, I've never encountered tempura an anything but a Japanese setting.
[ March 17, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I have a library of dictionaries in many languages sitting within arm's reach of my chair when I write. I especially collect slang dictionaries. I used crude words from other languages so my books would be PG rated in English. I will not provide translations <grin>.
There were three waves of slang creation. I had my made-up slang when I wrote the story and novel Ender's Game, which included neh, eh, ho ... the basics (this was before "ho" entered general American slang as a word for prostitute or loose woman).
Then I worked on a futuristic computer game and invented a lot of underworld slang using Arabic, Russian, and Japanese slang dictionaries and transliterating and altering the words into ones that Americans could pronounce and spelled as we would spell them (thus: imo becomes eemo).
Since I still had this glossary of crude underworld terms on my computer, when I was writing ender's Shadow I dipped into that glossary and used the appropriate ones.
appropriate in my opinion.
I also used the russian slang dictionary (along with a regular Russian dictionary) to create names for characters in the Homecoming series. Unfortunately, I named the baboon with a crude word that, unbeknownst to me, was the crudest word in the Russian language (or so a couple of russians have told me).
It's dangerous to play around in other people's languages ...
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: I used crude words from other languages so my books would be PG rated in English. I will not provide translations <grin>.
Posted by Tsukiko (Member # 7578) on :
quote:
quote: I used crude words from other languages so my books would be PG rated in English. I will not provide translations <grin>.
[Eek!]
I must admit, I have had my share of odd looks when I burst out laughing while reading the Japanese slang on many a bus. Posted by augirl987 (Member # 7577) on :
I use "ho" as a greeting with my friends that have read Ender's Game... and also with my cat, Ender. Posted by Neh (Member # 7534) on :
Thanks for your imput everyone! Its always intresting to know a couple of slang words in other languages. Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
"Ho there!" "You keep your 'ho there.'"
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Oh great, I'm never going to think of that baboon the same way now... ^_^ And he was so important to Nafai!
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Yes, I couldn't believe that so many Ender fans didn't get it when I greeted them in chat. I think "Ho, Friend'sname!" is a cool greeting. But it's not unique to Card. A. A. Milne used it too..."Ho, Piglet!"
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I'm pretty sure that used to be a common greeting in English. It's fallen out of favor now, and probably won't be revived any time soon, considering if you addressed most people that way now, their response would be something like, "How dare you call me that." Sad, really.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I'm somewhat fluent in Ender's Game slang. You have to use it in your writing when you are a member of Virtual Battle School. At least I think you do, it makes it more authentic, neh?
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I don't think Ho was ever American; the Brits and Yanks used different greeting for a long time. Their "ho" became our "hi" and their "holloa!" became our "hello."
Right now our greeting is changing, too, from "hi" to "hey." The latter is a southern usage that is spreading, both through black popular culture and country music/NASCAR culture.
Other seemingly changeless usages change quite suddenly. "Have a nice day" was new in the 1970s, simply a creative alternative to "seeya" or "good-bye."
In Brazil, the last time I was there (which was a long, long time ago, I'm afraid) the old version of "you're welcome", which used to be "de nada" (of nothing), had suddenly morphed to "nao ha de que," meaning "there's nothing to be thanked for." (Technically "obliged for" since the Brazilian thank-you is "obliged.") In every shop we went into, every obrigado from me (or obrigada from Kristine) was answered, "nao ha de que."
These things seem absolutely universal and changeless ... and within a few years they can be almost completely replaced. Evolution without genes is MUCH quicker ...
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Actually I think the American greeting has evolved from "hey" to "whats up."
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
The greeting "howdy" seems to be spreading and losing its rural stigma.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Really Porter? Not in the midwest, from what I've seen.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Well, maybe it's just me then. Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
"Howdy" has been increasing popularity in my area as well.
Posted by Axess Denyd (Member # 7613) on :
Perhaps "Ho" changed to "Yo".
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
quote:"Howdy" has been increasing popularity in my area as well.
I don't want to brag, but I think I may be single-handedly responsible for this trend.
I start all emails and letters with "Howdy." I started this years ago, like, over a decade ago, and I think it's finally starting to take hold.
I suddenly feel omnipotent.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Get in line. I've been using "howdy" as my default greeting for a long time as well.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I can't hear the word "howdy" without thinking of the opening of "Robin Williams: Live at the Met":
quote:How-DEE! whoops, wrong opera house!
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
The correct pronunciation of "What's up?" is actually "'tsup." "'zzup," is usually an accepted varient.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I pronounce it "Wuh-Dupp".
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I have combined they Hey and the Was Up and now greet people with "Hey was up?"
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
"country music/NASCAR culture." Rank generalization! It is a common misconception, I know, but it's just not true. Sorry, I know this is your board, but I had to speak up. I am a NASCAR fan - and yes, I am a southerner, native Texan by birth. I'm also a first generation american - mom's from Ireland. I am college educated with a BA dbl major in Poly Sci & Communications, and a dbl minor in English and Theology. (Yes, I have an official Degree in Bullshit, but that's not the point...) I am a city gal, I don't listen to country music with any regularity, and altho NASCAR has in the past been, by and large, a rendneck sport, things they are a changin'. Stereotypes are just too easy... I was really surprised to read that from the Almighty OSC.
and so I'm not totally derailing the thread, I've used "jeesh" forever. For me, it's a polite version of "Jesus H. Christ!" The hubby hasn't ever read Ender's Game (He's not a reader despite all my best efforts!!!) but he understood "neh" the first time I used it with him. I think there are some sounds that are universal (should I say global instead?)in meaning, especially when combined with facial/body expressions, even if you don't speak the language.
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