In Ender's Shadow, when Bean is on his way to tell Ender about his transfer to Rabbit, he tells Itu that "I'll bet the total who graduated was nine."
He then says that it is every toon leader and every second.
Now if I remember correctly, didn't Ender create 5 toons of 8? So shouldn't there have been 10 of them, plus Bean... So 11 transfers?
Just curious if anyone else ever noticed it.
Posted by LilBee91 (Member # 7475) on :
Ya, I noticed that too. I started coming up with all these theories as to how it might be. Bean couldn't have done the math wrong! After two minutes I decided it was just a mistake and moved on. I did the same thing with the end of the 4th Harry Potter book (except that one involved a lot a more research to explain).
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
So where were you when we were proofreading the !@#$% thing?
Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
My first time posting and I get to respond to THAT from OSC?! Awesome!
Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
This seems to be a touchy subject and I am sure someone has brought it up before, but... I was confused by how, on the morning that Ender is taken by the IF, Peter at breakfast, says that the IF found out about what Ender did to Stilson. But how did PETER find out about what Ender did to Stilson? Am I being stupid or what?
Posted by Locke2525 (Member # 7554) on :
he saw the blood on enders shoe ender showed him
Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
And then Peter had a premonition that it was from Stilson's body and not a "capper-tiller"? I'm not making the connection.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
How do you notice these things? Suspend disbeleif a little. Posted by Johivin (Member # 6746) on :
Wow....
Geez, didn't think I would offend with that question. Was just curious about it. Wasn't sure if I read it wrong or what.
Good grief.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I don't think you offended. I think maybe you just startled.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Or maybe he was joking? He doesnt seem like one that would be seriously troubled by that.
[ March 20, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Little_Doctor ]
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
Every toon leader and every second not necessarily graduated, merely promoted. Some of those who were promoted actually graduated.
The following graduated: Hot Soup (Dragon) Dink Meeker (Rat) Vlad (Dragon) Dumper (Dragon) Alai (Unknown) Petra (Phoenix) Bean (Dragon) Fly Molo (Dragon) Crazy Tom (Dragon)
They met up with Carn Carby (Rat) who had graduated a while before them, and Ender doesn't count since he never went to Tactical School.
No way could they graduate the all toon leaders and their seconds. Why? The same reason they made Bean create an entirely new army for Ender in the first place.
[ March 20, 2005, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Gosu ]
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
quote: My first time posting and I get to respond to THAT from OSC?! Awesome!
Sigh
Posted by Johivin (Member # 6746) on :
Not sure what you're talking about Gosu. They could easily have graduated 11 commanders and fill them with Dragon toon leaders. It doesn't say that they graduated all of the toon leaders and seconds. It says essentially that they all got their own command.
Easily explained because it was necessary to get the best of those who knew both Bean and Ender into command positions before they had to go to Tactical.
Also, I believe the reason they gave Ender Dragon Army was that otherwise they would have had to kick kids out of whatever other one they decided to put him in. All other armies were filled with kids and they wanted to stack his army, thus they gave him a retired army... Dragon.
My question was just that I thought that he had five toons of 8, thus if it was every toon leader and every second 5+5= 10 + Bean = 11. These were the number to get their own command. Not to be graduated at the time. Bean wasn't graduated on that day, he was promoted.
Anyway, I'm not nit-picking the story. Was just curious.
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
My point is that at first, Bean mentions to Itu who graduated, but to Ender he says who got promoted, so the error you mention does not exist.
quote: Also, I believe the reason they gave Ender Dragon Army was that otherwise they would have had to kick kids out of whatever other one they decided to put him in. All other armies were filled with kids and they wanted to stack his army, thus they gave him a retired army... Dragon.
That's the analysis you would reach by reading only Ender's Game. This is Ender's Shadow. So, that's true, but only half-right. Bean didn't want to give Ender kids who he already had experience with because he would rely on them too much and favor them a bit more (he thought).
Similarly, at Eros, if you gave Ender a squadron group filled with say, 9 Dragons and 1 Rat, wouldn't that make it hard for the Rat or at least for him to be able to use the Rat. Even if the Rat soldier is his best friend, he has no experience with him and so relies on the Dragons more.
quote: 5+5= 10 + Bean = 11
<Grin> lol?
Posted by RoyHobbs (Member # 7594) on :
Now that that question is decided, would any care to tackle mine? Which is... in EG, how did Peter find out what Ender does to Stilson at the beginning? I realize that Ender shows him his shoe, but that doesn't explain how Peter knew that the blood was from Stilson... This is a bit nitpicky but...
Posted by Johivin (Member # 6746) on :
You're missing the entire point Gosu. I have most certainly read both novels and you are listening with closed ears.
You are right that he says to Itu how many graduated, however, this is to coincide with the numbers who were promoted in Dragon Army. Bean had no other information regarding the promotions and graduations except what he was given from the toon leaders. It would be illogical for the toon leaders or seconds to be graduated without having been a commander, as these were by Bean's standards, the best students.
To quote Ender's Shadow... "The toon leaders and seconds had all received transfer orders. Every single one of them was being given command of an army."
Perhaps you never read this sentence.
It was Graff's order to give him Dragon army, not Bean's. How you can say that that decision had anything to do with Bean. From Graff's perspective, he couldn't bust a current commander because he was stacking the army. That is why he gave him Dragon Army.
As for your last comment, he used Petra more than most and she wasn't a Dragon. So what's your point?
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
Posted by Johivin (Member # 6746) on :
Roy,
To answer your question, the incident with the blood on his shoe happened the night before the IF showed up. I personally believe that Peter knew what had happened and was just being arrogant and sarcastic regarding the whole caterpillar phrase.
Peter is very smart. He's also an arse. I would assume that he was just being the latter and had actually known what had happened.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
Johivin, I had the same question when I read ES, and I think I posted it somewhere else. I figure that it was just a mistake based on the old way of doing things (four toons of ten) instead of the new way (five toons of eight). Or, it was saying nine plus Bonzo and Ender, forgetting that Dragon army gets disbanded and Bonzo is part of the nine counted.
Posted by Johivin (Member # 6746) on :
I figured it was just an error too, Midnight. I was just curious if it was a mistake, or maybe I missed something in the book regarding Ender returning to the 4 toons.
Whether or not Bonzo and Ender left, I was basing on simply the number of toons and seconds that there were. Plus Bean. It would work if there were 4 toons, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't losing it. I meant no harm, but it was a curious question that puzzled me for awhile.
As a Math teacher, it was something that popped out at me.
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
Ah you're a math teacher, that explains a lot. Sorry for the confusion I may have caused. What grade/area of math do you teach?
Posted by Johivin (Member # 6746) on :
7th grade.. Pre-algebra, basic math, some basic geometry. It stuck out to me while re-reading both Ender's Game & Ender's Shadow.
Johivin Ryson
Those who watch rarely speak up. Those who speak rarely hear all. But those who listen see all there is.
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He doesnt seem like one that would be seriously troubled by that.