i have read the shadow series 5 times each..cept the new one..only once
But with the connecting novel..does that mean i should read speaker and that series?
I never fully got into speaker..seemed slow...so i stopped
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
I actually love Speaker, Xenocide and Children. Yes, they are slower-but more mature. They have really beautiful thoughts of family and love. OSC also gets much more metaphysical and presents many wonderful ideas about the universe and how we are connected.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Locke i agree with you. I thought speaker was a little slow, but i to am going to read it out, becuase i want to read the whole Ender Universe books.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Heh.
Speaker is my favorite novel. Period.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It's definitely up there for me too. Just below China Mountain Zhang and Grapes of Wrath, I think, but above A Song of Ice and Fire, which is saying something.
Posted by syipress (Member # 7569) on :
The Speaker series is excellent, and while it may seem slow at first, the story becomes faster paced later on. If you enjoyed Ender's Game, I would reccommend reading Speaker.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I do have to say Speaker is one of the most beautiful novels I've ever read. You're missing out on a lot if you skip it.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I'll echo the Speaker-is-my-favorite-book sentiment.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I loved, loved Speaker, but Xenocide is even better.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I liked Xenocide as well, but COTM was really stretching things I felt.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
They're all good.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'm pretty convinced that the books either get better or worse depending on how much of Novihna and her family you can tolerate.
My tolerance level was pretty low. Still, Speaker is brilliant.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Really? I loved Novinha, always, and still do. She breaks my heart.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I especially liked Olhado. He has got to be one of my favorite characters of all time.
Posted by Human (Member # 2985) on :
I'm also one of the many here who can claim Speaker as their favorite book. Personally, I prefer the interaction between Ender and the Piggies--hence the username.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
I hate Novinha with the fire of a million burning suns.
edit: I'm mostly joking, but Novinha does make me really upset.
[ March 17, 2005, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
***Slight spoily thingy**** I know AntiCool. Novinha just kills me-she really does. What a (insert bad word here). A horrible childhood is no excuse not to improve or control yourself as an adult. Ugh. She stinks. He deserved someone much better. Although just because I hate her dosen't mean I didn't love reading about her. She is a very interesting person.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I know she was an unpleasant adult, but she tried. Ender found something in her to love...
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
* I think there will be spoilers the whole rest of the thread*
It's been a couple of years since I read Speaker. But I remember her having an abusive husband didn't she? I always thought of her as the Protagonist, everything she did was for the welfare of her children right?
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
My problem is that I don't think she tried. She wanted to be a suffering martyr, and she didn't care how many people she made miserable in the process.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
*minor spoilers*
Kat - I can see how you would be attracted to Novinha as a tragic figure struggling with demons from the past.
However, all I could see was a woman that allowed her demons to overwhelm her obligations to raise a family in as healthy an environment as possible. I have no tolerance for this, and so I found Novinha self-indulgent and whiney.
edit: Ditto what porter said.
[ March 17, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Oh, I do hate martyr acts. I don't think it is identification, though, because I always loved Novinha, even in the midst of a mostly-perfect childhood. I think it is because of Ender - Ender loved her, so I do. If she's an unlovably wench, then Ender's a fool. I can't believe that.
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
**spoily** Scott- I don't think she did much at all for the welfare of her children. That was just an excuse she used to herself to justify playing the victim. Man she LOVED doing that!
Lady- I don't think Ender is a fool, I think he loves her partly because she is damaged and needs him a great deal.
[ March 17, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Constant Reader ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I'm all for helping people, but...you only marry one person. I just can't believe that he married her out of pity.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Why not?
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Lady- Oh no, I don't think he married her out of pity at all! I mean it actually attracts him that she is damaged and needs him. Although I may be of that opinion because I am attracted to damaged people myself.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Because marrying someone out of pity is a really...dumb thing to do. Or...it's done by someone who doesn't like themselves very much. I guess that fits Ender, who sort of agrees with hatred the world now feels for him. I don't agree with it, though. I love and think the world of Ender, and so the thought of him thinking so little of himself feels wrong.
*thinks* It's like Ender married Novinha for the same reason Novinha married Marcao - they disliked themselves so much, they were eager to punish themselves. If Novinha was really unbearable (broken is okay, but unbearable is different), then all the love Ender felt for her, all their quiet moments, were part of the Ender's self-flagellation. He was hard on himself, but he wasn't that twisted.
[ March 17, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Oh, I think he TOTALLY married her to help 'save her'. In fact, it would be exactly in his character. His entire adulthood seemed to be motivated by a driving need for redemption. Marrying a project, someone who would need him more than an independent, solid, healthy person is part of that endless search for propitiation on his past sins.
Ender making an unwise decision when he was battling his own demons doesn't make him any less of a lovable character. Overall, he had so much more to give that I didn't lose any love for him. I've had really good friends marry people who were AWFUL for them. That doesn't mean I like them any less, but that doesn't mean I feel the people they married were any better simply by association.
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
I agree he married her to help save her. Just not out of pity. I do think he was attracted to her extreme need of him and he saw a way to help save himself (in his own mind). Atonement for his sins. But he did love her. Even though she stinks. Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I have had friends marry people who don't make them happy too, and it does lower my opinion of them. It doesn't make me like them less, but I certainly admire them less. How can they be that stupid?
quote:But he did love her. Even though she stinks.
Ender's not an idiot, though. He wouldn't miss her and love her if she was all awful.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
While I liked all of her children, even Grego and Quara, I hated Novinha. Passionately. Loathed her. She was, from the first moment we met her, completely and totally unsympathetic. I always figured that Ender married her out of self-loathing.
The fact that he remained married to her after she rejected him and locked herself away, untouchable -- and that he eventually joined that same convent despite his own complete lack of faith and presence of sexual desire -- emphasizes to me that he remained with her out of guilt and codependency.
I saw in him, actually, a lot of the things that used to doom my relationships with unlovable women.
"Ender's not an idiot, though. He wouldn't miss her and love her if she was all awful."
Why not? He thought she was pretty and needed fixing, and she was a bottomless well of pain into which he could completely subsume his own sense of self. For someone like Ender, that would be very attractive.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Ender's not an idiot, though.
I firmly believe everyone has the capacity to be an idiot. In fact, I find that I like people better when I accept their idiocy and not allow it to interfere with my admiration for them.
It's a form of modesty. If you have a modest outlook on yourself and other people you're far less likely to have your world rocked when they act like what they are - imperfect people struggling with their own imperfections.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Hmm...maybe that's the click. I've certainly been through stages of disliking myself, and I even was engaged once partly out of self-sacrfice. How could he actually do it, though - the only time he'd be married, every day, all his life, to someone completely unlikable? That's sick. Chopping your own legs off sick.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Actually, I think she stinks. Obviously Ender did not.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I dated a crack whore for nine months, thinking I could fix her. It happens.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
quote:How could he actually do it, though - the only time he'd be married, every day, all his life, to someone completely unlikable? That's sick. Chopping your own legs off sick.
Exactly!
I think that he did it is proof that he was an idiot in this regard.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: How could he actually do it, though - the only he'd be married, every day, all his life, to someone completely unlikable? That's sick. Chopping your own legs off sick.
I dunno, Kat. I mean, yeah - it's stupid and self-destructive, but everyone does things that are stupid and self-destructive. Discernment in anything is hard to attain, much less discernment in ALL things. Ender had a lot going for him, but that doesn't mean he had everything going for him.
People make decisions and then they figure out how to live with him. Marrying the wrong person, well, that's a pretty common decision. It's the people who give up when it gets hard, run away and then make the exact same decision because they never let themselves face any of the consequences that I think are cut-their-own-legs-off sick. But even then they can eventually learn.
Nothing is static, not even life-altering decisions for the worse.
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Did you really Tom? I dated a multiple personality alchoholic. We're a pair aren't we? Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I dated a crack whore for nine months, thinking I could fix her. It happens.
But you didn't marry her. You didn't completely remove all chance of happiness for yourself. I spent two years on the original Peter Pan for much the same reason, but I didn't think that the way things were was a permanent solution, and while I loved him, I always knew that if we got married, he'd have to change beforehand.
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Yeah, Ralphie. I love that Ender is a real person. It makes him a more believable character and easier to identify with.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, I really did. It's a long story, and I'm afraid that the truly incredible sex does not, in hindsight, make up for the skull-crushing stupidity of that decision.
Luckily, I got better. (Oddly, so did the girl in question. After doing a skin flick, she plowed the money into -- of all things -- trade school, and now works quite happily as a bricklayer. Go figure.)
-------
Katie, believe it or not, not everyone takes marriage as seriously -- or marries with as much forethought. *grin* Clearly, Ender -- who married Novinha well before she was fixed -- did not.
I would imagine that many marriages suffer from a lack of proper planning.
It's also worth noting that Ender never did in fact get better, whereas I did. I dumped her because I got some self-respect, whereas Ender not only never developed self-respect but in fact became so consumed by his own self-loathing that he let himself dissolve. I think it's clear he could have benefited from some counseling.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Kat, do you think of yourself as an idealistic person? If so, is it because you see idealism as a protection for you?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I think there are a very, very few decisions in life that are too important to do badly, and who you marry is one of them. There's only one shot. How much do you have to hate yourself and to promise to cherish and tie yourself to someone completely unlikable?
I don't think it's just that he married her - people do do stupid, stupid, stupid things all the time. But twenty years later, he loved her still. If she was truly awful, I think he would have realized that in the intervening twenty years. It isn't the initial decision that's not believable, but the steady love twenty years later that would be impossible if she wasn't lovable, deep in there somewhere. He became a good father and lots of time passed; I think he must have healed some. If she was unremittingly awful, he'd stop putting up with it, one way or another.
--
We're all typing at once. The last paragraph attends the I-got-better part. Time passed - he must have gotten better. It just takes too much energy to hate yourself that long. He was surrounded by children who loved and some of whom were obviously happier because he was there. I think he must have gotten better.
Ralphie: I don't think I'm idealistic. I do think there two things that are too important to do badly and too important to lie about. One is who you marry (the other is religion). I suppose on those topics I may be idealistic.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: After doing a skin flick, she plowed the money into -- of all things -- trade school, and now works quite happily as a bricklayer. Go figure.
Good heavens. Write the book, make a million. . .
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
**Off Ender topic, sorry** Tom- that is so weird. I had the best sex of my life with my messed up person! I like your website. I have not quite figured out what it's all about yet, I've only been looking at it for a mo.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I've thought about doing a story about it, Scott, but I'm afraid no one would find it believable. *laugh* The whole thing was just so much drama. Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:(Oddly, so did the girl in question. After doing a skin flick, she plowed the money into -- of all things -- trade school, and now works quite happily as a bricklayer. Go figure.)
Coccinelle recently ran into her freshman roommate, who was, at that time, a prostitute who used their shared dorm room for work. They HATED each other, and it was a shock to see her. The roommate has since obviously given up the trade, got her degree, and works as a counselor at the local community college. She's very happy - she got better. It happens. Go figure. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:But twenty years later, he loved her still. If she was truly awful, I think he would have realized that in the intervening twenty years. It isn't the initial decision that's not believable, but the steady love twenty years later that would be impossible if she wasn't lovable, deep in there somewhere. He became a good father and lots of time passed; I think he must have healed some. If she was unremittingly awful, he'd stop putting up with it, one way or another.
Yeah, but just cause I like someone doesn't mean I have to like everyone they like, nor does it mean they have some failing if they like people I don't.
Loving someone simply to be in conjunction with someone else your love and admire is substituting your own discernment for another's. It's like saying, "I like blue because my brother likes blue, and I like my brother." Liking and loving people is just as subjective as liking and/or loving colors. It's based on individual tastes and values.
I mean, if you were arguing your love of Novinha based on her individual merits, then there could be no discussion. That's how YOU feel, and it's in conjunction with YOUR tastes, and debating that is moot. But arguing your love of Novinha based on Ender's merits isn't a reflection on your tastes or values at all, unless it's a need to see those we admire as flawless in practice, if not in theory.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
I think something needs repeating though. ENDER didn't think she was awful. We all do, but he loved her. Awful depends on your point of view. He thought she had problems, yes. But he certainly didn't think she was as terrible as we think she is.
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Sorry, I didn't type fast enough! Ralphie said it better anyway.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Constant Reader ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I'm arguing that Ender loved her for twenty years, and he knows her better, and he's not an idiot, so there must be something to her that we don't see.
As for why I like her in Speaker, I think it's the same oh,-someone-needs-to-take-care-of-her tug.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
You know, Kat, I think you're both. Of course, that's simply from observing your posts in the length of time we've known each other, but my gut tells me you're extremely idealistic.
Idealism often leads to cynicism. We want things in a certain way, and we need people to meet certain expectations. The more idealistic we are, the less likely people are to meet these expectations and more cynical we become of people in general. However, that doesn't mean that - dep down inside - we aren't still really, really hoping we'll find those people who will be everything we've ever wanted them to be, and more. The root is idealism, the result is cyncism.
I think that's why characters in books are so appealing. We can safely pick and choose from the discreet distance of 'it's JUST fiction', and then when we find that character that becomes more than simply fiction to us we have the luxury of filling in all the holes with what we want.
I've seen in some of your previous posts a tendency to not back down, not for the most obvious "need to be right" reasons, but because you have a certain (idealistic, from my seat) expectation of who you are and how you should be perceived. I think you would hate it if someone didn't see all of your decisions as being right as based on the precedent of "who you are," because you would hate for people to lose even a modicum of respect for you. I can appreciate this, but I think it ends up biting you in the long run.
In the case of Ender, as with anyone, you don't have to lose respect for people simply because they make bad decisions. The most important qualities of love, kindness, humility, joy, peace, self-control, etc... are sometimes obscured in individual circumstances, but that doesn't mean a person didn't try everything they had to reflect these qualities.
I know I'm in the minority when I say this, but "smart" isn't a virtue. It's most arbitrary. Wisdom, discernment - these are virtues, but they are based on experience and information which both take time to acquire. Making bad decisions actually goes a long way to acquire both of these things, and that means the people I love the most have done, are doing, or most likely are going to do exceptionally stupid things to themselves and others.
edit: I'm not sure why I decided to post all that. If you object to my arm-chair analysis, or find it unduly presumptuous (which it is), I'll take it down. I think I'm just musing out loud, and - as usual - talking out of my ass. But it's what I'm good at, so I continue to persist.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I think you would hate it if someone didn't see all of your decisions as being right as based on the precedent of "who you are," because you would hate for people to lose even a modicum of respect for you. I can appreciate this, but I think it ends up biting you in the long run.
Aww...I'm wrong a lot, though. I admit I'm wrong. That doesn't really fit that characterization.
Hmm...maybe I'm different now from when I first came to Hatrack? I do fight a great deal less. I also don't really court opinion anymore. It's too ephemeral.
Oh, and sorry. I did change the added part after I thought about it a little bit. To sum up: Practical about most things. Very idealistic in two.
[ March 17, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Actually, there is a lot to that. I haven't been around for a while, and so my perceptions are going to be pretty retro. I've changed a TON in the last year, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if you have, too. We're about the same age, and I wouldn't be surprised if we're going through similar stuff.
FWIW - I've discovered I think while talking (and/or typing), not before, and so I've been doing far more observing-out-loud than ever. Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I've skipped a bit, but Ender fell in love with Novihna when she first called for a speaker, because she was the only person he knew, who as a child, felt responsible for bringing horrible destruction on someone she loved. He loved her because they shared that pain. And they were both intimately acquainted with Alien cultures.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
That's fine. The characteristics you described do seem...young, and they do sound like me before, but I don't think they are true anymore.
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Yes, I think it is true he identified with her then, but I don't think that's when he fell in love with her. I think she intrigued (sp?) him.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
We should totally make time to chat it up again sometime, Kat. We haven't talked in way too long. Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Kat, you keep saying that Ender isn't an idiot. Why do you keep saying that? When Ender acts like an idiot, you assume that there must be something hidden that we just can't see. The simpler answer is that even though he is beloved and very smart, he is still an idiot.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: One is who you marry (the other is religion). I suppose on those topics I may be idealistic.
btw - I think these are the two topics it's MOST dangerous to be idealistic about. Idealism leaves very little room for error, and when you're so emotionally vested in something you already have a tendency to be unforgiving because you're so vulnerable to being hurt.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I don't think people can be classified as good or bad, smart or dumb. They're both. Novhina can be a raging, self-centered b$%^&. That doesn't preclude her from also being a loving, considerate person. We always see her when she's under stress, which she deals with by trying to control everything and distancingherself from everyone else. Of course, she's not going to be attractive. Stories show us the dramatic parts and she's particularly unsuited to deal with drama.
I was actually more upset with Ender's role in the marriage than Novhina's. He's supposed to be this super-insightful and ruthlessly forceful (when it's necessary) guy, but he totally wusses out whenever it comes to his wife, whcih is exactly the sort of behavior she doesn't need. She gets so screwed up because she's pathologically dominant. She needed someone to over-dominate her and not put up with her bs. She needed to learn that trying control everything makes it so you don't control anything. She needed to not be taken seriously when she went off on her "It's all about me" kicks. And it doesn't look like Ender did any of that.
It seems like (especially in the off-screen times) he went with the flow and tried not to rock the boat. Playing the submissive may be what it looked what Nohvina wanted, but it wasn't at all what she needed. Not to take away from her responsibility, but Ender knew the situation he was marrying into, but wa apparently unwilling to do what needed to be done. He failed her as a husband because he was content to be the nice guy and pretend that, because Novhina was a loving, tender person when she wasn't under stress, that she did need anything more than this nice guy.
[ March 17, 2005, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Constant Reader (Member # 7282) on :
Ender isn't perfect! What?!
No, I see what you are saying Sqiucky. But I think he just wanted to be the nice guy and screwed himself. (and her) I think he had enough of being the bad guy to last a lifetime.
[ March 17, 2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Constant Reader ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
We definitely need to catch up. I'm never on AIM, but my e-mail works.
Hmmm...I don't agree about the religion part, especially. There is a difference between the way the Lord wants things to be and the way humans execute it, but that's okay. That's going to happen. If there's something wrong with the fundamental basis of the religion, then there's a problem.
Specifically, if Joseph Smith was lying and the Book of Mormon is just a collection of good ideas, that would not be okay, even if the church in general made me happy.
For marriage, you may be right, but I'd rather be idealistic there. I don't think I'm even idealistic by choice in that area - I mean, I have been engaged twice, and I meant it when I said yes. Something in me just couldn't do it, though. I'm all for participating in the game of life with all its bumps and bruises, but marrying the wrong person is just too colossally dumb to go through with it. On the other hand, I've mellowed about many things. Maybe I'll get married when I've mellowed enough that it doesn't matter to me anymore.
Hhmm...it is probably not a coincidence that the only things worth being idealistic about are the only things that will not change after the whistle blows and the game is over.
[ March 17, 2005, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Novhina can be a raging, self-centered b$%^&. That doesn't preclude her from also being a loving, considerate person. We always see her when she's under stress, which she deals with by trying to control everything and distancingherself from everyone else. Of course, she's not going to be attractive. Stories show us the dramatic parts and she's particularly unsuited to deal with drama.
I would agree, Squick.
However, I'm trying to understand the value of any fictional character's "off-screen" time, unless it is directly reflected in their subsequent "on-screen" moments.
quote: There is a difference between the way the Lord wants things to be and the way humans execute it, but that's okay. That's going to happen. If there's something wrong with the fundamental basis of the religion, then there's a problem.
Yes, I definitely agree. I'm not sure if it's the same within your theology, but within mine there is also room for error in how we currently understand theological truths. But again that's human error.
Also, in marriage: I think it's far better to have a certain measure of idealism before you get married than after. If you keep your idealism into your marriage, I personally believe you're in for a world of hurt.
I guess it's all in how the idealism is allocated.
[ March 17, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think the off-screen stuff is relevant because Ender and Novhina's relationship can best be understood by this indirect stuff. OSC touches on it indirectly, I think, because that's the only way I think he can and still write keep it interesting. At a certain level, Ender's still that little boy who wants to avoid making his older brother mad at him. This comes out most clearly to me in his interactions, on-screen and projected off ones, with his wife. This, coupled with her explosive rages and isolationism, build up the core of their maritial problems and bleed over into their personal issues. Ender isn't just the innocent victim that some people seem to making him out to be. They fail each other. Or at least, that's how I see it.
Also, I don't know, keeping with indirection, there's this mystification that people can be very nice and, in other situations, very nasty. I was sort of aiming for explaining that too.
[ March 17, 2005, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Yeah, I agree that they fail each other. But as a reader the on-screen moments are going to be most influential in how I view the character. And so insinuations of a kinder, gentler Novinha are going to be difficult to remember when her dialogue and actions stupify me with their self-indulgence and -absorbtion.
[ March 17, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
quote: Yes, I think it is true he identified with her then, but I don't think that's when he fell in love with her. I think she intrigued (sp?) him.
Given that he was early 20's and she was 9, I don't guess he was "in love" in any general understanding. But he loved her enough to leave Valentine behind. And you have to consider that he was very familiar with the ways in which relativity seems to age people.
I think he always saw that in her, before she decided a sham marriage and adultery was the best way to manage what she thought was going on.
Novinha's main flaw is she doesn't really consider that there are things she doesn't know, even when it is glaringly obvious that they are things she doesn't know (as was the case when Pipo died and she decided to undertake her life of deception). Yet how can we not act upon as much as we know? This is why I can sympathize with her.
I generally agree with Squicky that insofar as Novinha wanted to play martyr, Ender wanted to play Savior. But the little drama doesn't work unless you have a persecutor. People in Martyr/Savior mode are therefore always looking to turn others who are innocent as often as not into persecutors. In the end I guess she turned the "persecutor" ray on him. The hopeful thing is that these are just roles people choose sometimes. It's not who they actually are. I think in general the martyr/victim has the greatest ability to break the cycle.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Oh, no doubt. Were I in the story, I might have gone all Plikt on her too. Of course, I feel pretty much the same way about Bean and especially Petra in the Shadow series (although, they don't really come across as real, flesh and blood characters to me, so that may be part of it).
It's just...err...one of the things I really enjoy about OSC's writing is the subtle ways he adds tremendous amount of depth to his characters. When he does it well, few writers are his equal and the Ender and Novhina thing is, in my opinion, one of the places were he does it very well.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I've always felt that in their quiet moments, away from the kids and away from the stage, Novinha and Ender were very sweet to each other.
Having now encountered smart, cruel, narcissistic people in reality, I probably would have stopped speaking to Novinha in about a day and half. I think that's why I can't imagine that she was unpleasant all the time - I KNOW people who are unpleasant all the time. Ender doesn't ACT like he can't go to the bathroom without someone holding his hand; there's just no way he'd put up her if she always acted the way she did at times of stress.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
M. Scott Peck opined that writers don't actually create real living souls (he was speaking here of fiction- I believe it was in his Care of the Soul book on Euthanasia and he was trying to define the soul). I don't know about that, really, maybe we just cast people we know as the figures in the book. I think of that whenever people claim that this or that character didn't seem real to them. I don't know if I believe it or not. In the end, I either like the book or I don't.
Is the fudge made with margarine or butter? If you can't tell, are you really going to let it spoil your enjoyment? Too many times I've seen someone claim there was margarine and it turned out to be butter.
It would be sad it if were true that we can never get to know someone we haven't met. Bringing up, for an unrelated reason, Joseph Smith as an example.
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I know she was an unpleasant adult, but she tried. Ender found something in her to love...
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