Is it just me or did anyone notice that in "Ender's Shadow" Orson uses the word meshuga as an adjective to describe Bean's heavily modified jump suit? I believe he was using this based on yiddish for meshugina as in crazy. Is Mr. Card really not mormon but jewish?
Maybe I am one of the few jews to read the book and observe this enough to ask...
Neil
Posted by Suri-cool (Member # 7599) on :
Ha I noticed that but just thought OSc was just saying it. You know Meshuga has become very mainstream lately. (I'm Jewish) Prob. just alittle joke of OSc or something.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There's quite a lot of multilingual slang in the Ender books.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
A fair amount of Yiddish has made it into the average American's lexicon. Words like meshuga, megillah, ferklempt . . .
On another forum, I heard someone (not a Yiddish speaker, or Jewish, as far as I know), describe one of these words as a "Brooklynism." Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Bandos like me often use the word "schlep" which I'm told has Yiddish origins.
We use it as a verb, meaning to carry, pull, or pushg our multitude of equipment, instruments, electronics, and music from one location to another. "Hey, drumline, don't forget to get to rehearsal early so you can schlep and be ready to start on time tomorrow!"
As a noun, it is the act of the above definition. "Man, I'm really not looking forward to tomorrow's schlep."
I'm always surprised when a non-musician uses that word.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Shlep is indeed Yiddish, and used exactly in the two ways you mentioned.
And welcome to Hatrack, BC! Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
In another thread (Not sure which one) OSC stated that he purposelly looked up other cultures slang and words to make into slang to make up the battle school "culture."
Posted by Avicus (Member # 7652) on :
Neil-You're not the only jew to see it. I noticed alot of different slang from all over the world in the books. I think Orson said that he has a library behind his computer so when he wants to put something in like a curse or add some more slang to common he flips open a book and puts it in. There's so much of everything in there.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
And you've got the Chutzpa to... um... whatever.
Meshuga is actally Hebrew.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
I thought it was spelt meshuganeh or something....
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Just last night I told my husband I didn't fancy being bit in the tuchus. (We were talking about bugs, get your mind out of the gutter!) Words that have become mainstream are used by everyone, regardless of religion or background.
(Yes, I'm LDS. No, I was not raised Jewish. Although I did go to a Jewish HS 12th grade-- but Reform.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Many Yiddish words are taken from Hebrew, Jon, just as English has taken a number from Yiddish.
Strictly speaking, meshugga is the adjective and meshugenah the noun.
Posted by Meshugener (Member # 7601) on :
*cough*
Posted by WigginWinning (Member # 7811) on :
I also know alot of jews who've read a bunch of the series (it was a jew who got me into it in the first place), but i have to say that all that christian stuff, while it works in the books, is still incredibly creepy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Meshugener, that version is just redundant. Posted by Rose the ____ (Member # 7791) on :
I also know alot of jews who've read a bunch of the series (it was a jew who got me into it in the first place), but i have to say that all that christian stuff, while it works in the books, is still incredibly creepy.
... Anybody figure out what Mr. Wiggin was saying here?
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Yeah, rivka, except that in Hebrew, the word "Meshugga'" means "crazed", so the noun is "crazed" too, as in "a crazed person". The same works with the word "Ga'on" (Babylon, explanations redundant), and even stuff like "Hacham" - you can say "Yosi Hacham" and "HeHacham nichnas laKitta".
Yiddish preserved Hebrew, but ruined its grammar and pronunciation. I'm not blaming Yiddish-speakers. But, I mean, "Burich Osso Adoinai Eloheyni Meilech HaOilum" instead of "Baruch Ata Adonai Elohenu Melech Ha'Olam". (Hey! Did you notice that every word there requires capitalisation?)
JH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I know all that, Jon.
Yiddish grammar most closely resembles that of German, not surprisingly. And don't get me started on the things Yiddish speakers do to English -- "by" especially.
But that's quite distinct from any issues of an accent. It's not like your average Israeli's accent is any more "authentic" either. Probably the Teimanim come closest there. Anyway, the twelve tribes are each supposed to have a distinct accent.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Hey. Yiddish didn't "ruin" Hebrew grammar - Hebrew grammar is doing just fine, thanks. It took GERMAN language structure and added a lot of Hebrew words to it. They are two separate languages, with lots of one-way borrowing (I don't imagine ANYBODY allowed Yiddish to creep into Hebrew ... there was such a savage debate about which should be the language of Israel ...).
I read Rosten's "The Joy of Yiddish" as a teenager and have been aware of Yiddishisms in English my whole life. Keep in mind that many of the most lionized and emulated writers of the post-WWII era were Jewish, and their usages were picked up by many. Yiddish was the "cool slang" of a certain era in American letters, and some of the words remain even though now ebonics is the "cool slang."
So these Yiddish words COULD have come into the Battle School culture or into Common itself directly from Yiddish, but it's more likely that they simply were part of the English that became Common. After a while, borrowed words lose the traces of their origins and become, simply, English.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: I don't imagine ANYBODY allowed Yiddish to creep into Hebrew ... there was such a savage debate about which should be the language of Israel ...
You forget that it has been a long time since the debate. Also, it's not like Israel has the equivalent of l'Académie française. Modern Hebrew has picked up a fair bit of Yiddish, although not as much as it's absorbed from English.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I was forgetting that in Israel, Hebrew is a modern language. Liturgical Hebrew, I'm quite sure, remains pure <grin>. But a living language will borrow whatever its speakers decide to borrow, and even where there's an academie, their efforts are often futile. So I stand corrected <grin>.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Uh . . . which liturgical Hebrew would that be? There's more than one.
Posted by AutumnFire (Member # 7320) on :
My cousins are Israeli Jews, and so I've had the opportunity to see exactly how much Israeli Hebrew borrows from other languages. In fact, it has essentially ONE major doner: english. Speficially, any words having to do with technology (from the calculator on up). It's not that they don't have their own words - there's a hebrew word for "to calculate" or "to determine" and a construction used to describe the device: "one that calculates" or "calculator" - it's just that most people don't use it. They use the English word instead.
I know that was rather off topic, but someone mentioned modern hebrew, so I thought I'd offer my $0.02.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I love that the Hebrew word for "Coke" is an onomatopoeia. That's just freakin' awesome.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Is that like Utopia because I love my coca-cola! I have a not so slight addiction. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
What grade are you in? Haven't they taught you about onomatopoeia? We did it in sixth grade.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: There's more than one.
I second that. So many questions I asked Dr Yitzhak Shim'oni regarding the differences between two words ("אלה", "אלו"; as well as "לאמר" and "לומר") were simply Bible/Mishnah.
quote: Hebrew grammar is doing just fine
There are 22 letters in Hebrew, and 17 remain, according to a person from the Hebrew Language Academy. People's use of grammar is horrid, and colloquialism is going into the writing ("אני יומר", it should be spelt "יאמר", and should have "אומר", in any case). When I wrote the word "מבכה" to someone once - a standard word as commonly found as, say, "unintentional" - people looked at me asking what the hell I was talking about.
Ah, ze moden jois of pipel zat kant rait o tok (that was in my phonetic pronunciation imitating a Hebrite talking English).
JH
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
My fiance (methodist) and her mother have been using "schmuck" all their lives never knowing what it meant. He mom (rather conservative) turned many shades of red when I explained it's meaning.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Wow, that must've been hard.
"A 'Shmock' is a Yiddish term that means someone who is particularly annoying: however, this is deriative of the same place one of those people would be called in English - and please excuse my obscene vulgarity - a 'prick'; Naturally, the literal meaning of a Yiddish 'Schmock' and an English 'prick' are very similar, as they refer to a certain organ in the male anatomy that is not possessed by females."
Try it that way, and you might manage without the various shades of red.
JH
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I assume you're speaking of the prominent adams apple, and I just don't understand what the embarrassment is about.
Or did you mean the sheaves of unshaved armpit hair? I don't get it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Hee, hee. That's cute, JH. I remember hearing Kate Rusby explaining why she changed "Willy" to "Billy" in a song she sang, and saying that there was one audience that didn't get it, so she just kept explaining and explaining... Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Yeah, that wild armpit hair can be kind of prickly. Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
*Link to hardcore pornography.*
*THAT...*
Please do not take this seriously.
JH
Posted by heff_neil (Member # 7010) on :
Thanks for the respone Orson. Is it much appreciated and its nice to see an author who is so well rounded.
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That's just freakin' awesome.
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