As far as I know Mr. Card is a mormon- I must confess I know very little about this religion. All I know is that they belive that one tribe left Israel and went to American continent and were going to build New Zion. I read only Ender's saga but there's nothing about mormons there (except Teresa). But there's plenty about catholics. That seems very interesting to me, for Mr. Card is neither a Catholic, nor does he live in a Catholic society (national-wide, perhaps his closest friends are). And so I ask, why does he write about them? Sometimes I think that he wants to critice Catholic faith, ("Boy from Poland") and sometimes vice versa ("Speaker"). It is obvious that catholics are majority in the world, but second to atheists. And religion is a very important part of OSC's output. Why so little Mormons? Why not Buddhism or Orthodox or Islam?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Card has written several books about Mormons. Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Yeah, but I'm writing about his most famous. My most important question is why catholics?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I don't think it is to criticize. In "Folk of the Fringe" he was equally honest about both positive and negative characteristics of the LDS faith.
I think a number of things explain why Catholocism featured so prominently in Speaker and Polish Boy.
We know, from Ender's Game (certainly not 'full' of Catholicism in any way) that Ender's father came from a non-compliant country (in regard to birth control) and was Polish. This explained their willingness to have a third whether authorized or not. To have this be so, there was almost no choice other than have him be born Catholic, though later lapsed. The plot (or more specifically, the character's circumstances) required it. John Paul had to come from a Catholic country and have parents who were serious about ignoring birth control prescriptions.
Note, all of that was done in only a few lines, many many years before Polish Boy was written. But when setting out to write about John Paul's childhood, quite obviously, that up-till-then only briefly hinted at religiously motivated situation would take center stage. And there didn't seem to be any criticism. Nothing that I thought a Catholic might take offense at. If anything, the stance seemed noble.
As for Speaker, well, two things come to mind. One is his open-mindedness when it comes to non-American's in space. He commented on this in the afterward to "We put our blue genes on". He consciously used countries and peoples that were not major players on the world scene because they, too, had a place in the future tales. As he did his LDS mission in Brazil, Brazilians show up frequently in his books and short stories - "America", "Songmaster" and a few other's I know I am missing. But most clearly they appear as the inhabitants of Lusitania. The fact that most Brazilians (AFAIK) are Catholic would necessitate having Catholicism play a role, especially on a small colony world.
Another reason he specifically mentions in the forward to Speaker. He consciously wanted to include a religious leader character who seemed the stereotypically closed-minded, authority driven person that we have come to expect from movies and bookds, and then change our perspective to one of respect and acceptance. Thus, Peregrino seems a stereotype. But gradually, as one sees the reasons behind his resistance to Andrew, his grudging respect for Andrew's speaking, their eventual 'truce', and his willingness to put his flock and the piggies first, our perspective and respect for him grows. At the end, it is Peregrino who cautions Bosquinha from judging the 'planting' of human too quickly, despite his knowing no more than her about what Andrew has been doing.
But in all this, no criticism of Catholicism is implied. It is honest about strengths and weaknesses.
The advantage to dealing with world's made up of colonists from one ethnic, tribal or religious group is that one can explore things in isolation. He did the same with Greek Orthodoxy in "Wyrms".
That's just my opinion, though.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
I would expect that he picked Catholicism becuase he did his mission in Brazil and was exposed to it there.
msquared
Posted by Dread Pendragon (Member # 7239) on :
quote: Yeah, but I'm writing about his most famous. My most important question is why catholics?
I don't think he knows before hand which series will be the most famous. The Homecoming books and the Alvin Maker books are based solidly on Mormon beliefs/history.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I would guess that it's simply because he's not so insular as to believe that all of society revolves around his religion. Just because he's a Mormon himself doesn't mean all his characters, or all his important characters, or all the characters in his "famous" books (like he knows ahead of time which those will be*), have to be Mormons as well.
(*Edit: Looks like we were writing that point at the same time. Great minds, and all that.)
[ April 14, 2005, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote: I would expect that he picked Catholicism becuase he did his mission in Brazil and was exposed to it there.
My thoughts as well. Notice it was Portugese Catholics he wrote extensively about? Brazil was under control of the Portugese according to a deal in the new worlds which divided the colonization up between spain and portugal.
Or something like that.
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Yeah, Tordesillas or something like that. XVI century I didnt know that Mr. Card was there. Thanks, thats the answer I seeked.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I think OSC must identify with Catholics at some level. Throughout the Shadow books there is a great deal of Catholic theology discussed. Shure one of the charecters is a nun....
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Why is this even a topic of discussion? I'm not trying to silence anyone or suggest the thread should be closed, mind you. Not at all. I'm merely asking why anyone thinks it's significant that a writer would include characters that weren't of his own faith. He also has characters that aren't of his gender, his nationality, his political views, his sexual orientation, or his skin color. No one questions any of that; they accept that he's just a writer, and they are just characters. So what if he has Catholic characters? Why would anyone find that questionable?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I kinda thought it was because Card is fascinated by, and writes about, people. How much more reason is necessary?
Posted by olhando (Member # 7866) on :
well there where mormons in Lost Boys.
Posted by Hot Soup (Member # 7840) on :
I thought it was pretty cool how Pope John paul is Saint pope john paul in Polish boy.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: It is obvious that catholics are majority in the world, but second to atheists.
Um, I hate to tell you this, but atheists are not the majority in the world. You can get more information on it here. Atheists, agnostics, and other nonreligious people comprise 16% of the worldwide total. Christians, including Catholics and everyone else, are 33%, and Islam is at 21%.
Posted by Hot Soup (Member # 7840) on :
Yeah athiests are quite the minority. Catholics are the single largest religion, at 1.01 billion at last count, and Islam is right behind.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I am baffled that you might think I was criticizing Catholicism in any way. In "The Polish Boy" I showed a future Poland in which Catholics were being persecuted for practicing their faith. I showed a family that was sacrificing for their faith. Just what was negative OR positive about Catholicism in this? What I was writing about was religious people sacrificing for their beliefs.
I don't choose my characters' religions for them, according to some program. If I want to discuss a religion and give MY point of view, I'll write an essay about it. In my fiction, I give the point of view of my characters. The only program I have - if I have one - is to show characters having a commitment to a set of beliefs about religious subjects and membership in a community of believers, the former of which is absolutely a human universal, and the latter of which is nearly so - though many people don't think of their beliefs or their membership as a religion.
Also, I must point out that that which you thought you "knew" about Mormonism is not correct. Which is fine - there is no reason you should know any more. But when all you know about a religion is what you learned from its opponents, you must assume that you don't know anything about it ...
[ April 23, 2005, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Orson Scott Card ]
Posted by Hot Soup (Member # 7840) on :
One of the things I like best about OSC books is the level of accuracy. In some other scifi I've looked at Catholics allways come across so...wrong. Their beliefs, their disiplines, their traditions, thier oraganizational structure; at least one of these is way off. When i first read Speaker for the Dead (the second OSC book I read) I was deeply impressed. I thought, yes, at last someone actually took the time to do a bit of research and get it right.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
One of the things I most admire about the Shadow books is their view of Muslims. The view that the relgion of Islam will have corected most of its fualts in a few hundred years heartwarming. Thank you Mr Card.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I haven't read "The Polish Boy," but I haven't thought OSC was criticizing Catholics. It was pretty clear when I read Speaker that he wasn't Catholic, but that he had done a lot of research and respected many elements of the Catholic faith. Certainly, it was far more respectful and accurate than many stories written by Catholics and ex-Catholics. But there was a sensibility that was just different.
I've never been able to put my finger on precisely what the different sensibility was, but I was very unsurprised when I read Lost Boys and confirmed my impression that OSC was not Catholic. Just as I was utterly unsurprised when I found out Tolkien or Chesterton were Catholic after reading some of their better known works.
The perfect example is Qim - his character's growth in Speaker and his martyrdom in Xenocide could not have been written by someone without great empathy for Catholics.
In short, I found OSC's treatment of Catholics to be respectful, accurate, and well-meaning.
Dagonee
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Perhaps I know nothing about Mormons. Nothing but what is said by those elegant, suit-dressed men that are lecturing on Warsaw streets, and what is written in their leaflets. They speak english though.
I dont get much of it right, most probably. Sorry
The critisism in "Polish Boy" IS visible in my opinion. Father is shown in a way of someone blinded by his religion. He is stubborn and behaving in kiddish way. None father with this many children can allow himself to behave like this. He is responsible for them, and you also wrote that his a educated man.
I asked because if I were a writer I would most probably write about something that is close to me, that I belive in. You can't just write about a life in Hong-Kong if you've never been there. You;ll describe what you see all around. But then, I'm not a writer and I would most probably be not a good one. That is why I asked, and I think I've got the answer.
On such forums (fora?) I have a opportunity to see deeper, what was in writer mind. I am just trying to settle? my couriosity. It's great.
I write it cause I feel as though I was critised for asking
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
and thanks quidscribis, I didnt know that. 96% of Poles say that they're Catholics. I doubt it. I just meant that in fact there are more atheists
Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
Szymon - you must be thinking about some other group. LDS missionaries learn the language of where they are serving and don't hand out leaflets either. I think you might be thinking of JW's.
Jesse
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I'm Catholic, and just wrote a novel. The main religious perspective for the Americans in it (besides "agnostic") was Baptist, because it's set in the South. (Flannery O'Connor was a Southern Catholic, and I don't think we ever got that any of her characters were Catholic.)
One thing about the Catholic Church: it's old. It'll probably be around 2000 years from now. PC-USA or Assembly of God probably won't -- although it's likely that something much like them will exist, under a different name.
--
Here's what the CIA world factbook says about religion in Poland: Roman Catholic 95% (about 75% practicing), Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, and other 5%. Suggests Poland is therefore 20-25% atheist. Could be more, but there's a long way from 20-25% to 51%+.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I'm not entirely sure that non practicing catholics should neccesarily be grouped under atheism. I'm under the impression that the 95% are people who would identify themselves as catholics, but the 75% actively participate in religious functions.
According to the cia factbook, atheism accounts for just over 2%, with an additional 12% listed as non religious. The United States has a total of 10% who list their religion as none, although part of the 10% who are listed as other may also be atheist.
So from what I can see, there is very little evidence to say that atheism anywhere near the largest religious group.
[ May 01, 2005, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: ricree101 ]
Posted by Silifi (Member # 7901) on :
Atheism is not the majority. This is what it looks like:
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I didnt know that Mr. Card was there. Thanks, thats the answer I seeked.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)