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Posted by EyeRock (Member # 7929) on :
 
First posting - but I read much of the forum so I think this is not redundant.

-Anton's key must lead to the godspoken of the path. The why to be determined. But wouldn't it be interesting if it came from Peter wanting to recreate Bean's genius but in a controlable way?

- Does "the path" come from Han Tzu - and other worlds come from other members of Ender's jeesh?

- The descoloda virus is the obvious solution for Bean's children and perhaps Bean as well. More likely is Jane taking Bean outside and giving him a new body.

- However wouldn't it be more interesting if the virus was CREATED by Bean and his children as a way of solving their own problem (more Bean like than having someone else solve his problem).

- (this is a little over the top) why not meet another species that is expansionist in nature? Imagine if this time, influenced by the Hive Queen/Hegemon/Pequeninos humans try to communicate too long and are almost wiped out. They are saved by a new group of battle room children (even smarter than before) with Bean/Ender playing roles in their training!

Thanks!
 
Posted by Beanny (Member # 7109) on :
 
You're very creative, and your post made me think.

quote:
Sometimes I sit and think.
And sometimes, I just sit.

Welcome to Hatrack!
 
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
 
quote:
(this is a little over the top) why not meet another species that is expansionist in nature? Imagine if this time, influenced by the Hive Queen/Hegemon/Pequeninos humans try to communicate too long and are almost wiped out. They are saved by a new group of battle room children (even smarter than before) with Bean/Ender playing roles in their training!


This can't happen since Ender is already dead and Bean will be dead by the time Shadows in Flight comes out.
 
Posted by prerak (Member # 7923) on :
 
quote:
Anton's key must lead to the godspoken of the path. The why to be determined. But wouldn't it be interesting if it came from Peter wanting to recreate Bean's genius but in a controlable way?

Seems like a stretch, not to mention Path wasn't settled until after Peter died (I believe). Sure, he could have sent in motion research into the issue I guess. For that matter, I don't even think the people of Path were as intelligent as Bean was, even in terms of raw intelligence. I just didn't get that sense from them.

quote:
Does "the path" come from Han Tzu - and other worlds come from other members of Ender's jeesh?

Not likely. Remember that Path isn't one of the Hundred Worlds, its just a colony. THe Hundred Worlds are the ones that were settled (or ships launched to be settled) during Peter's time- which is where Han Tzu's ship would have been.

quote:
The descoloda virus is the obvious solution for Bean's children and perhaps Bean as well. More likely is Jane taking Bean outside and giving him a new body.

As someone said, Bean is likely to be dead. I did the math once, and even if the ship were traveling at 99% the speed of light, 3000 years would be approximately 400+ years... but then again, his children should have died out in that time too. So I don't know. I'm really interested in seeing how that issue is worked out (unless my math is wrong, definitely possible).

But either way, the scenario with Jane would not work. The only reason Miro recieved a new body is because the pattern he held inside his head was of his "old" body, established more through the years he had his "old" body in comparison to the deformed one. Not to mention it was a physical and not genetic flaw. For Bean, the pattern he would hold would be none other than himself, a condition caused by a genetic problem.

quote:
However wouldn't it be more interesting if the virus was CREATED by Bean and his children as a way of solving their own problem (more Bean like than having someone else solve his problem).

I think its been established that the virus was created by another sentient species, not Bean and company, but I suppose surprises are very much possible.

quote:
Why not meet another species that is expansionist in nature? Imagine if this time, influenced by the Hive Queen/Hegemon/Pequeninos humans try to communicate too long and are almost wiped out. They are saved by a new group of battle room children (even smarter than before) with Bean/Ender playing roles in their training!
As someone stated, Bean and Ender will both be (in a sense) dead at the time of the post-COTM novel. Besides, the above novel seems way too similar to what has been done already in two books (EG and ES). I can't imagine OSC returning to the same exact well again.
 
Posted by K.K. Slyder (Member # 7416) on :
 
They mention the colony of Path as being a "new" one- when Jane describes it to Ender, I think. Being only a couple of centuries old or something- maybe younger than that.

I doubt that Bean's descendents would be the Descaladores because after all- they couldn't communicate with each other- Bean's descendents would probably (even if they were in isolation) still speak some form of Common. And they certainly wouldn't forget the fact that the rest of the human species still exists.

Why would creating the Descolada help with Anton's key? Seems to me that it would just kill them just as easily as the other humans. And plus , with people as smart as Bean- why would they create something that would be so completely destructive- they'd probably create something that could just help them- not destroy everything.
 
Posted by EyeRock (Member # 7929) on :
 
Thanks for all the replies!
Some thoughts-

1- Bean's children don't become the descaladora virus - they create version it. They use it to alter Anton's key to allow intelligence without growth - ie abiltiy to cross network neurons without increasing brain size. The virus is a form of "artificial intelligence".

2- The virus then develops over thousands of years its own true intelligence and becomes what Ender encounters.

3- The path was created by the Congress for intelligence but crippled by OCD - doesn't that sound like a variation of Bean/Anton's key? They do not have his extreme intelligence but some intermediate compromise. Why couldn't that have come from a plan Peter started?

4- I can imagine a future where the lessons humans have learned do not prepare them for a war-like species. After learning about the Formics and Pequeninos the factions running humanity believe in a peaceful solution. The opponent is merciless.

5- Why can't Bean "skip" through time like Ender did? Why can't the virus have stopped his growth and allowed him to age? We are talking genetic alteration here - no?

6- So I am picturing a full circle scenario with children, trained by Bean (ok I forgot there'd be no Ender) and perhaps Peter incarnate. Imagine the book ending with a line like "The enemy's gate is down".

Boy its fun to speculate!
 
Posted by TheClone (Member # 6141) on :
 
Prerak, I think I'm a little confused - how can Ender age, what as it?, 15 years hoping through space but... it'd be 400 for Bean?

Not quite fair to Bean!
 
Posted by SpEeDMaSTeR (Member # 7568) on :
 
Yes, I noticed the same thing. Ender is roughly 3000 Earth years old at his time of death, but is only somewhere from 50-100... OSC never gave a true number that I noticed. Bean would possibly still be alive at that time, as he is the same age and in space his body can be more easily support itself with the lack of gravity.
 
Posted by prerak (Member # 7923) on :
 
I'm honestly not sure about the age thing. All I'm going on is the basic time dilation equation I learned in physics class (keeping in mind I took a "dumbed-down" physics specifically meant only for bio majors, so I really can't say for certain what the entire story would be).

Here's the basic equation:
LINK

Basically, in that equation "t with a zero as a subscript, t0" implies the time Bean would experience. The "t" is the time passing in the main reference frame, the universe as a whole in our case. The "v" is the velocity of Bean's spacecraft and the "c" is the speed of light.

Putting in the following values:

c= 299,792,458 m/s
v= 296,794,533 m/s
t= 3000
t0= what we're trying to solve

I'm assuming he's going as fast as, say, 99% the speed of light. A nice number. And using those numbers we get an answer of 423 years.

Of course, the easy problem to see here is that Ender and Valentine should have been dead way before the events of the Speaker series. But hey, author's perogative. I definitely won't complain, and I doubt any of you will either.

Not to mention I may be wrong about the equation.
 
Posted by prerak (Member # 7923) on :
 
quote:
1- Bean's children don't become the descaladora virus - they create version it. They use it to alter Anton's key to allow intelligence without growth - ie abiltiy to cross network neurons without increasing brain size. The virus is a form of "artificial intelligence".

2- The virus then develops over thousands of years its own true intelligence and becomes what Ender encounters.

The virus wasn't the intelligent species. The descolada was merely one thing that was produced a planet populated by what appears to be organisms which communicate using organic chemicals. The actual species was vastly different. In fact, I believe it said in the book that during Miro/Val's scouting trips they encountered rougher versions of the virus that was on Lusitania.

The virus itself was a creation, not a sentient life form (assumption).

quote:
3- The path was created by the Congress for intelligence but crippled by OCD - doesn't that sound like a variation of Bean/Anton's key? They do not have his extreme intelligence but some intermediate compromise. Why couldn't that have come from a plan Peter started?

Definitely probable.

quote:
4- I can imagine a future where the lessons humans have learned do not prepare them for a war-like species. After learning about the Formics and Pequeninos the factions running humanity believe in a peaceful solution. The opponent is merciless.

Well, they haven't learned about the formics or the pequeninos YET, but at some point in the future I guess thats probable.

quote:
5- Why can't Bean "skip" through time like Ender did? Why can't the virus have stopped his growth and allowed him to age? We are talking genetic alteration here - no?

See the above post on this. I'm as confused as anyone, maybe even more so.

quote:
6- So I am picturing a full circle scenario with children, trained by Bean (ok I forgot there'd be no Ender) and perhaps Peter incarnate. Imagine the book ending with a line like "The enemy's gate is down".
I can't say the idea doesn't hold some nostalgia, but I'm more interested in seeing what new stuff OSC can do with the story. I just think a new form of the battle school would be less effective that imagining what else can be done with the uniqueness of this storyline. But thats all personal opinion.
 
Posted by EyeRock (Member # 7929) on :
 
I went on the assumption that if Ender could skip through time so could Bean. In fact since Ender stopped a few times to live in "real time" Bean should then be younger by the time he catches Ender.

Could Bean have checked in via the ansible? In fact since he has an ansible does he then talk to Jane? Or even help her along to awakening?

I really like the descaladora virus being one that got out of control after Bean's children used it to cure themselves. It also seems to make sense that Peter put into place a program to create smarter humans he could control using the geneticists he had around. Afterall the US used german rocket scientists to cteate our space program!

Thoughts?
 
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
 
And because Petra and Bean lived in Blackstream, Brazil, naturally some of their descendants colonized the planet Baia, and some of their descendants colonized Lusitania. So naturally Ender finally settled in a world populated by the descendants of Petra and Bean. Naturally.

Thought while we were all stretching reality with highly improbable connections, I'd add my two cents. [Taunt]

Oh yeah, and the descoladores were a scheme by Graff and Rackham to once again unite seperate factions (this time species instead of countries) against a common enemy.

It's a small Hundred Worlds after all. [Wink]
 
Posted by EyeRock (Member # 7929) on :
 
These series are all connected by improbable connections!

How improbable was it that Ender was around at exactly the moment when ships got to the Formics home planet?

That Ender's brother becomes Hegemon? (Genetics in a family rarely play out that way)

That Bean would survive? Be found by a nun who would recognize his capabilities? Be found by a nun with IF connections??

That Bean would meet the worst monster as a child in Rotterdam?

I could go on...

The idea that a virus that can re-write the genetic code would have originally been created ON PURPOSE by a group a child geniuses to save their own lives does not strike me as too big a reach.

Bean is alive, on a ship with kids who are smarter -genetically - than the greatest hero (Ender) earth ever knew. They gotta end up doing something!

Further where did the people of the Path come from ? Genetic manipulation from a government project - right? So why is it far-fetched that Peter (who was trying to find a cure for Bean) would have begun this program?

These characters were all drawn as focal points for human history.

Just my 2 cents worth...
 
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
 
quote:
How improbable was it that Ender was around at exactly the moment when ships got to the Formics home planet?
That Ender's brother becomes Hegemon? (Genetics in a family rarely play out that way)
That Bean would survive? Be found by a nun who would recognize his capabilities? Be found by a nun with IF connections??
That Bean would meet the worst monster as a child in Rotterdam?

That doesn't make the Enderverse any smaller, EyeRock. Those examples are just coincidences that could happen in any world, just chains of unlikely events.

It's just improbable connections between events that already exist that annoy me. Like connecting Path to Peter, or the Descolada to Bean, or the descoladores to Graff. It's disappointing to think that all of the important stuff in Card's created universe comes as a result of the connections between two or three people who know each other.

And I think your posts are interesting and have valid reasoning to them. Your ideas are plausible. It would make for a pretty good book. However, I would rather have some new ideas to entertain me in a new book, not just reused characters and events with the expected script.

Besides which, there are usually annoying plot inconsistencies that always turn up later when Card revisits some of his ideas. Like how the short story "Investment Counselor" tears "Chapter 11: Jane" in Speaker for the Dead to meaningless shreds. And how there seem to be only a dozen members in Ender's jeesh in the Shadow series, while in Ender's Game there appeared to be a lot more (along with another person who broke down besides Petra and Vlad--I think it was Fly Molo). So it's easier on everyone if we get a new novel that doesn't feature any old material.
 
Posted by EyeRock (Member # 7929) on :
 
Well said. I think if before the shadow series I said, "Hey - Alai becomes the head of all the muslim countries, Han Tzu heads china and Achilles (a minor character before Shadow) becomes the most dangerous person on earth". You'd have laughed at me!

You are correct that the books are more interesting when new characters are developed. Isn't that why we like the Ender follow ups? But Shadow was originally great because it re-visited old friends.

With the touch points we al;ready have the fill in books can only tell us what we know. Its like Anakin Skywalker becoming Darth Vader - no surprise - only filling in blanks. That is a different type of intellectual interest.

So what I was doing was filling in the blanks using the known characters - just as OSC did throughout the Shadow series.
 
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
 
Aha- Star Wars. Prime example of two series connecting where they really shouldn't. There are HORRIBLE connections that make this scifi setting, which is supposed to be a whole galaxy, as big as a school playground.

Like Anakin making C3PO. There's a good one. An illogical connection between the two trilogies that there was no reason to ever make. It's like (simplified) Bean making Descoladores. Why? What's the point? Couldn't someone else have made the droid just as easily? Because now we have to explain how 3PO got from the prequels to the originals. Just a mess.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Prerak
Nothing wrong with your math, it's your assumption. Everyone since Einstein knows that faster than light travel is impossible, but travel up to the speed of light should be achievable. Let Bean travel at 99.9999% of the speed of light and see how much time elapses.

ps- I agree with crash, loose ends are alright. When everything is too perfect, it's annoying.

[ May 04, 2005, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I let Bean travel at 99.999% of the speed of light, and I got 13.4 years for 3000 years of real time.
 
Posted by K.K. Slyder (Member # 7416) on :
 
Okay, that's a lot closer in SftD Ender is thinking about how he's flying at infitessimally to the speed of light.
 


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