During math class today i started thinking of the origin of numbers. I didn't really research it, but thinking in class, i thought that cavenmen(or any other form of early humans) used numbers only for organzation. Their numbers could have simply been a swigle or something along the line of that. But if you around in todays world, numbers rule. Almost everywhere you look you'll see a number. Even when i started thinking even more, math it self is organazation, all of it. well at least i think all of it is. So i thought of posting on hatrack, and now i am, i just wanted to see what everyone thought about this kind of subject, cause i was talking to my math teacher about it and he sort of agreed with me but said math isnt just that.
Posted by Just another Dharma bum (Member # 6879) on :
I hate math. I wish I could've learned how to add subtract multiply and divide, and be done with it. When am I EVER going to use tig??
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I feel ya, Dharma. I never use tig either.
Posted by The Great Bilby (Member # 8033) on :
I am an electrician, I use trig all the time
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
I use both tig and trig!
I design weldments.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
You might use trig if you ever decide to have an addition built onto your house and you want to do some simple figure checking to make sure that you are not beig over charged. You might use math beyond the simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division if you are trying to decide whether to put a portion of your raise into extra priciple payments on your mortgage or put it into an investment account of some sort. Sure, you will pay a proffessional to do the heavy lifting, but simply knowing how to do the calculations yourself can alert you to fraud before it is too late. If you are still deciding what you want to do in life don't dismiss math out of hand. In many occupations math is a very important aspect, and those occupations are not limited to business, science, and engineering work either. Also, since I seem to have entered rant mode, I wish that the graduates of our school system could be counted on to have at least picked up simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. I can't tell you the number of cashiers who can't give proper change if the register doesn't calculate it for them. If I've only met my share of them then our educational systems ability to impart even this basic level of knowledge is very bad.
/end rant
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
Most people won't use more advanced math in real life.
You learn it to challenge your mind.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
quote:Most people won't use more advanced math in real life.
When I was in the Marines I worked as an aircraft mechanic, specifically doing structures and hydraulics. We needed to be able to do some advanced math in order to do our work on both the metal bending and the hydraulics jobs. Now I am not talking about Calculus here, but I am talking trig and some analytic geometry which are definately in the category that this thread has been treating as advanced math.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Im just in honors algebra so im using alot of algebra, not that i dont enjoy doing it, i actaully do, i look towards a math science career down the road, the only thing i dont enjoy about math and numbers is when they're wrong, when the dont add up. Thats the only time i dont like math.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
You might need basic trig but where the heck do you ever you'se things like imaginary numbers and sinasoids in real life? Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I just took a Geo/Trig test last hour and I'm still a little bitter.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
TheDisgruntledPostman,
I wish you good luck with it. An interest in math can lead to a large number of different fields of interest and careers down the road from the obvious to the not so obvious. For example you could go into teaching, statistics, economics, computer science, science, engineering, computer graphics, robotics, and many other fields. The above are by no means an exhaustive listing of fields and are all very general with many opportunities within each. Even if you don't end up concentrating on math in your future a understanding of it and curiousness about it will serve you well whatever you end up doing.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:the only thing i dont enjoy about math and numbers is when they're wrong, when the dont add up.
DP - As someone who has a math minor, let me assure you that numbers always add up. That's the beauty of them. It's a hard lesson to learn, that when they don't seem to add up it's your mistake, not theirs (and sometimes the professor's).
JT
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
0range7Penguin,
What do you plan to do in real life? What I am getting at is do you have a clue right now what you will be doing in 5 to 10 years? I bet the people who decided on the content of your math classes have even less of a clue about what you or any of you classmates will be doing 5 to 10 years down the road, but they are charged with preparing you for whatever that may be. If the most math you ever use is the four basic operations of addition, subtractions, multiplication, and division, then yes, I can see where that may make you bitter, but depending on your chosen career and hobbies you may possibly find yourself using some of the stuff in these clases even if that doesn't include the imaginary numbers.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: You might need basic trig but where the heck do you ever you'se things like imaginary numbers and sinasoids in real life?
Sine functions have a plethora of uses from describing simple harmonic to the wave properties of light.
Nonetheless, there are a few real world quantities for which complex numbers are the natural model. The strength of an electromagnetic field is one example. The field has both an electric and a magnetic component, so it takes a pair of real numbers (one for the intensity of the electric field, one for the intensity of the magnetic field) to describe the field strength. This pair of real numbers can be thought of as a complex number, and it turns out that the strange rule of multiplication of complex numbers has relevance to the physics of an electromagnetic field.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
The great thing about math is that it's really just a description of the universe. So even if it seems that some math doesn't have any use in the real world--and there is some math on the edges of the field that doesn't at the moment--eventually science will catch up, and the math will be able to be applied. Chaos theory was just some mathematicians playing around; now it’s used in things like meteorology and crowd control.
--says the math major who went through the "I hate math" stage as well.
edited for spelling
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I just had math, and usually I feel like screaming, but today was actually not that bad. We discovered that triangles can have three right angles, so 270 degrees instead of 180. Mind boggling..
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I'm confused. 270 degrees interior angles? How can this be?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
You can have more than 180 degrees in spherical triangles.
Think of a right angle at the North Pole, with the 2 legs going to the Equator, which makes the 3rd leg. All three angles are 90 degrees or right angles--the triangle has 270 degrees.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
I don't think you can really call that a triangle, since the edges are not straight lines.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
While I was teaching Intermediate Algebra at the local Community College I used this as an extra credit problem, but it is true.
I built a bridge in my back yard a few years ago. I want to use 2x8 lumber for the span, and I want the span to be 7 feet long. I want a perfectly round arch on the bridge that is 4 inches into the wood at the center, and exits the wood four inches from either end. If I use a string to draw the circle for the arch, how long does the string need to be? I'm not asking for the answer, I'm asking you to think about how to find the answer.
Come on, people. Math isn't just about learning how to use numbers, it's about learning how to think logically and rationally. It's about learning from your mistakes. I hated math until I started applying myself and getting things right. There is a certain point in your math education where you can finally see the forest. All through school you are taught the individual trees because it's impossible to teach the forest. Too bad, because the forest is very beautiful.
Besides, the ignorant miss all the inside jokes. The symbolic notation for the antiderivative of the base of the natural exponential is quite funny. /// Complex numbers are used in circuit analysis for alternating current. Sinusoids are everywhere, from the aforementioned alternating current to any kind of wave.
I often use advanced mathematics when preparing to write fiction. From calculating effects of relativity to understanding the ramifications of a supernova on a spacecraft, I need to be able to digest the technical to write effective descriptions.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
To El JT de Spang
quote:As someone who has a math minor, let me assure you that numbers always add up. That's the beauty of them. It's a hard lesson to learn, that when they don't seem to add up it's your mistake, not theirs (and sometimes the professor's).
Thats my favorite part of math, when all the numbers add up and you've succesfully done whatever equation. I just hate it when the numbers dont add up, but like you said, its only your fault (or the profesor's) so you can usualy back track your work. -DP
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
You don't learn anything from the math you do right.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
quote:Originally posted by Portabello: I don't think you can really call that a triangle, since the edges are not straight lines.
It's called a spherical triangle.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Wait, cant you only have that 270 degree triangle if it was displayed in 3 dimensions rather than two? Cause if thats the case i dont think its a triangle, at least i think so.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:You don't learn anything from the math you do right.
You learn that you are doing it right. That's kinda important to know.
Although, as with everything in life, you learn more from mistakes than anything else.
Posted by teoivan (Member # 8049) on :
Another problem: I can uderstand and even use more complex math but I am just unable to calculate, just can't keep in my mind the numbers.Addition, subtractions, multiplication, and division are my hell! And that leads to another problem: some people dont believe my conclusions just becouse I can't figure the numbers. Can anyone explain this.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I can't explain it, but I can give you a similar story, courtesy of one of my engineering professors.
He consulted for a major defense contractor, or some such fancy company, and his supervisor was an engineer as well (electrical, I think both of them). His supervisor could see the solutions to most, if not all problems they came across, but he had neither the desire or the ability to actually solve the problem. He would see the solution, tell his underlings how to get it, but they had to do the work because he couldn't do it. Some people can just see stuff, through inductive reasoning and subconscious flashes of insight.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
People who buy lottery tickets and who gamble at casinos and dog tracks, or place bets with sports bookies, really need more understanding of math. Those same people who claim "oh it's so much fun and I usually come out ahead and even when I don't I spend much less gambling than for many things I enjoy less" never talk about how much fun it is to just toss cash from their wallets into the ocean and watch it sink or drop it from the car window while they're driving down the interstate. Because of this I'm convinced that they don't really understand in a deep way what is actually going on in those situations. The people who run casinos, sports bookies, and the states who have lotteries are all quite glad for that ignorance, I'm sure.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Another reason to study math is if you are interested in reality, nature, existence, and so on. The natural laws of the universe, gravity and all that, are fundamentally mathematical in nature, not mechanical. In other words, on the deep level there are no nuts-and-bolts explanations of the laws of physics, of why masses attract, as far as we know. It's just equations. Matter is knots in the fields and fields are numbers in space. The table in front of me which seems to have so much solid reality, which I can pound on and feel it resisting my pounding is actually made up of electromagnetic forces from atoms, from the charges they carry, and the charges are little packets of energy which are temporarily tightly bundled (mass is energy) so it's all fields, in essence, it's numbers in space, related from place to place and through time by equations. God is a mathematician, if you want to put it like that.
So if you're curious to understand the mind of God (in a literal sense for those of us who are believers, or in a figurative sense for those who aren't) then study mathematics. At many times during my study of math I've had that experience, too, of being touched by something pure and eternal, of seeing the pattern laid plain. I think that's what draws a lot of people to math, its beauty and perfection.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: I can uderstand and even use more complex math but I am just unable to calculate, just can't keep in my mind the numbers.Addition, subtractions, multiplication, and division are my hell! And that leads to another problem: some people dont believe my conclusions just becouse I can't figure the numbers. Can anyone explain this.
Dont use calculators, do everything by hand, and you will get better at it.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Well kaioshin, wants you have your equation down and you know how to do it, inside and out. Its much more suffient to use a calculator. Also calcs are very good to use to check work, not do the whole thing, but make sure you are right too.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:People who buy lottery tickets and who gamble at casinos and dog tracks, or place bets with sports bookies, really need more understanding of math.
Of course, the ones who really understand math are the ones who come up with card counting techniques that allow them to beat the house.
Even for those of us who don't know how to overcome the house percentage, we still can understand math and think casinos are enjoyable. Free drinks, fun with friends, small outlay of cash, and a chance you'll walk away a big winner. Even if you lose, if you manage your money correctly it can be cheaper than a night clubbing.
Posted by teoivan (Member # 8049) on :
kaioshin00, dont tuch my calculator. Without it I am "dead". I work with a lot of numbers, statistic and so long. It is easy to say "just dont use it".
Posted by teoivan (Member # 8049) on :
Sorry. If I forget about the calc I must quit my job. It is not necessery but very confortably hop-hop in your mind and you now the answer. I even read for diferent systems wich can help you for that. Just can't imagine the numbers. One frend of mine (math teacher) says that for understanding math you must have a lot of imagimation. Maybe there is lack by me. But I don't think that is true. Everyone can see the nature, can acept the miracle of energy, the power. If you just wont to see it. Look at me. I live in the middle, betwеen eastern and western math civilization. I don't want to calculate the world, just acept it. OK I do my job, I even love it but it is just a job, for existence. This is not a religion or some philosophy it is way of living.
Da moga slynce da dokosna. Da byda myni4ka luna. Da pija kapka podir kapka. Da spja do toplata zemja.
I try to translate: Can I tuch the sun. Can I be a tiny moon. Can I drink drop after drop. Can I sleep to the warm earth. Dosn't sound so beatyful
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Sorry to those who think of a triangle that can be 270 degrees, thats not a triangle. A triangle is 180 degrees and thats like a law. If you wish to make it more, that is a 3-D porportion, only when making a pyramid.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Too true. As to other things I want to go into business management and my favorite courses are history and English. I need to learn more game theory becuase I love the game of poker.
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
The way i understand spherical triangles is that they can appear 2D depending on how you look at them, but they are really 3D and can contain all 90 degree angles, but i might be wrong
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
TDP, that's true in Euclidean geometry, not in other kinds.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
A triangle has 180 degrees only if Euclid's Fifth Postulate is true. THis postulate states "If a straight line crossing two straight lines makes the interior angles on the same side less than two right angles, the two straight lines, if extended indefinitely, meet on that side on which are the angles less than the two right angles."
The thing is, unlikle the other 4, we have no good reason to suspect this is true. From the beginning it was questioned, and it has never been proven.
I'm so insanely jealous of people who are natural with numbers. I love them, but I have to work hard at it, and as soon as I make a break-through in my thinking I forget. Not everyone can be Newton or Keppler, I suppose.
The Fibonacci Sequence is one of my most favorite things in the world. It used to make sense to me, but now all I can remember is something about a rectangle and the scenter of daisies.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sartorius: I'm so insanely jealous of people who are natural with numbers. I love them, but I have to work hard at it, and as soon as I make a break-through in my thinking I forget. Not everyone can be Newton or Keppler, I suppose.
I'm a terrible mathematician, but I now have a 99th percentile understanding of mathematics through hard work.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Spaceman, are you actually a mathamatician? Or did you just use that as an example of sorts, cause if you were you'd be a pretty smart cookie
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
I'm not a mathematician, but I have a degree in math, and several graduate level mathematical physics classes. That one percent of people who know more math than I do contains a large number of people, including all mathematicians.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
O, was it hard to get a degree in tha spaceman, because im looking towards a career in math and science.
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
My brother never really was that big a fan of math. Always had some trouble with it, but he decided he liked astronomy and hes now a senior at U of M on his way to a degree in astrophysics. So I'd vouch that math can be learned if you do it enough. Heh yeah what you guys said about people not believeing you because you can't re-create a problem. When my math teacher like wants whoever does a problem fastest to come up to the board a lot of the time I will write so little down on my paper, and it will be so dis-jointed I wont be able to explain it even though a few seconds before I had a perfectly good explanation and thought process.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
Postman, success comes to those who hold on long after everyone else lets go.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Thats a great saying
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 8107) on :
It's one of my favorites. I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. I'lll try to dig up the reference.
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