Hatrack River Forum: OSC and symbolism

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Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :

I spent the last 30 minutes searching and reading about your(OSC) views, and ideas on symbolism. I have found a couple things, but nothing too concrete.

Symbolism has a nasty habit of annoying me, due to English teachers ranting on unnecessarily about it. Personally, I've always gathered that when I write a paper or story, I never associate anything with the symbolism kind of subtle meanings behind every action or thought in my stories, the way my English teachers make it seem like most authors do.

The only insight that I've found in my short search, is part of an answer of an old 1997 interview that was conducted on you, by Jeff Duke. It is in the answer the the question, What do you think are the most important principles in writing (style, theme, mood, etc.)?

Part your answer includes-
...The writers who work on theme end up writing essays disguised as fiction. The writers who work on symbolism end up writing puzzles. STORIES are written by people who are, not surprisingly, thinking about what happens and why....

I know that your writing is influenced greatly by mormonism, but I don't think any of that directly relates to you writing anything like symbolism. Is this true?

Do you think most authors think about including symbolism in their work when they write it?
Or does it slip in their at an unconscious level?

English teachers seem to make a bigger deal of finding symbolism in a book than even the author that writes it does. How do you feel symbolism should be taught or ignored in schools?

Thanks for your time and input,
Harrison

Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :

There's a funny quote from Roger Ebert that basically goes (paraphrased) 'If you have to ask what something symbolized, it didn't.'

Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :

quote:
The writers who work on symbolism end up writing puzzles.

I'm sure Dan Brown (Author of The Da Vinci Code and Angels & Demons ) would beg to differ. [Razz]

Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :

After the film Fatal Attraction, my sister asked me, what was the deal with water? I hadn't even noticed. But she was right: when they Did It, she was pushed onto the sink and flipped the faucet on. The bunny was killed with water. The final attempted murder scene was in the bathtub. While it rained, IIRC.

It made sense. Water is symbolic of life and sex. And here, water was tied to sex with the initial scene, and then continued to be used in ways that were Fatal or nearly Fatal. Maybe it was too much, for my sister, since she noticed it. But since I didn't, it worked just the way it should: subconsciously.

Posted by Dr. Evil (Member # 8095) on :

Ham,

I have had the same experience with English teachers forcing symbolism into every phase of reading. Often times, the stretch to find the symbolism was so extreme, it was like playing 7 degrees of separation. Luckily, my Mom, who was an English teacher, was not one of them. [Big Grin]

And by the way, 'The Da Vinci Code' may be one of the most overrated, overblown novels of all time. It was a bad story with shallow characters (apologies to Silas though) and was written in what we like to refer to as "best-seller" mode.

Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :

Thanks for your input everyone.

Hehe, and Dr. Evil, those english teachers drive me crazy, even the ones that are really cool seem to lose all sense of rationality when it comes to discussing symbolism. Wayyy overboard.

Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :

I like symbolism, it gives a deeper meaning to a book. True, it is no longer just the story, it is more the theme of the symbolism being described in great length. But in a way you get more out of a symbolic book, maybe not an awesome story(but one can hope) but you will probably have something you can relate to your life, or at least give a long hard think. Ray Bradbury is an excellent example, he often gets a bit off topic and disjointed in his books, but there is always a wealth of symbolism and room for interpretation. If any of you have read Of the Dead Returned you'll know what I mean.

Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :

See, for me, the silliness begins with statements like "water symbolizes life and sex." Why? To whom? ANYTHING can symbolize ANYTHING.

which is not to say that there aren't REAL symbols. But what I think has value is the symbol the writer is unconscious of - and the reader as well.

A large number of student writers have had it drummed into them by their english teachers that the point of writing fiction is to have a lot of cool symbols (and metaphors and similes etc.) to be noticed and decoded by discerning readers.

But when that is the process, the story is no longer central and, in most cases, it is either chaotic or cliched.

But when writers concentrate on the story, natural symbols, metaphors, etc. slip into the work unawares. Now, instead of getting the writer's PLAN, you get the writer's true beliefs below the level of consciousness. Then you have something powerful. And, best of all, you're likely NOT to notice it.

In fact, if you're noticing symbols on your first reading, as far as I'm concerned it shows that the story failed. If you are truly engaged in the story, then what you'll be "decoding" is the plain tale: What happens and why. And that's what we read FOR, because it is the plain tale that provides us with vicarious memories that help us make sense of the behavior of the strangers around us.

The kind of storytelling I love is not "nonsymbolic" or "antisymbolic," it simply wasn't written to be read that way. Good stories are written to be absorbed into the memory as vividly and powerfully as the most piquant moments of real life. You can't receive a story that way if you're busy figuring out what the author "meant" by having a lot of water or whatever.

And then when you have a list of what certain things symbolize - especially when it's a list so general that it could suit an astrologer in making up horoscopes that will fit everybody - then I think you're just flat out wasting time.

Obviously, most English professors disagree with me.

But the literature that functions as I prefer is the literature that continues to be read by volunteers despite being ignored by the professors.

Posted by Dr. Evil (Member # 8095) on :

The only author I can remember reading who had some blatant symbolism was C.S. Lewis and I believe that he admitted as much too. Other than that, I have read essays on the obvious (obvious to whom, I don't know) religious symbolism in Lord of the Rings and symbolism in the short stories of Ray Bradbury and Kurt Vonnegut. I disagreed with these writings and for the most part took the stories that I read at face value.

Good to see that La Viro himself again agrees.

Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :

Thank you for taking the time to respond Mr. Card, I agree with your opening statement completely.

Edit: If I summed up what you said, would it be that you belive that good symbolism is always in fiction, but also always unconscious?

[ June 02, 2005, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Hamson ]

Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :

The problem with trying to explain your own opinion on this forum is there are plenty of people, including OSC who are better at explaining a more reasonable opinion than yours, to the point where you say THATS what I was trying to say.