This is topic Advent Rising has some technical flaws and also punches you in the neck. Repeatedly. in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
But those punches are therapeutic and feel good.

The story, while intersting and intense. Was TERRIBLY delivered. Where was the character developement? Marin had almost no lines.
I am a big fan of OSC, and I was anxious to play this game when i found out he was involved with it. But the story delivery isn't what makes the game terrible.

Being a game developer myself, i found the flaws in this game to be ridiculously unnecessary, for they had such easy solutions. The developers must have been extremely strapped for time and or money. Many people had frame rate issues, which could be solved with a simple quality option. This is what made the game truly terrible. Glitches and bugs and technical issues, all of which could have been tested and debugged.

Technical issues aside, as i said before, the story was poorly delivered. It had good music, intense action and interesting characters. But the cut scenes felt forced and contrived. Worst of all, and my friends had similar complaints, but at the end, the long speech given by a character was completely unintelligible.

I'd like to see the whole trilogy novelized in some way, because it didn't feel like it belonged in a game, as innovative and fun to play as it was. I'm sort of sad that the publishers touted it with Card's name wherever they went because it was pretty much a waste of potential.

[ June 09, 2005, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Marcelarrow ]
 

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Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
 
that sucks. must be part and parcel of the industry.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
No it is not part and parcel of the industry. Halo (CE and 2) is a perfect example of a game that has a story that is delivered phenomonally in a game, and in novel. People are beginning to recognize that games are a legitimate form of story telling. There are poor novels and there are poor games. Its just... disappointing that this game had so many issues.
 

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Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
 
yes, it is part and parcel.

marcel,

the issue of "issues" is an arrow's delight into the subtle tissues of what marks a marksman as a target and a delight.

Some esconce. Some evade. It's a fool's trade, but whether it remains part and parcel is, (humbly spoken) not for you to decide.

alluvion

(cynic: I think my rhythm could use some coaching)
 

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Posted by Mullitt (Member # 7826) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Marcelarrow:
No it is not part and parcel of the industry. Halo (CE and 2) is a perfect example of a game that has a story that is delivered phenomonally in a game, and in novel.

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I wouldn't say so. The novels weren't that great,and the in game dialogue in Halo is barely decent,dragged down more by Master Chief (Really, really cheesy lines). WarCraft III is agame that has a very well thought out and acted story, and is very easy to follow. StarCraft had one, but less so. As for console games, Ratchet and Clank and TimeSplitters: Future Perfect are two (well, four really) examples of games that really capture a specific mood (both happen to be sci-fi/comedy) while keeping things well written and well acted,so it seemed more like a good Tv show/movie rather than just a good game story, which is a very good thing.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
Alluvion, are the drugs your taking prescribed or from somewhere else? how did you know my name was Marcel?

Anyways,
Advent rising didn't feel like a tvshow/movie. It felt like a train wreck of sorts. It didnt come together that will on the gaming platform.

I agree, the Novels for Halo weren't fantastic in their own right, but they were decent, and were great companions to the games. Master chief didnt really HAVE lines in the game, he was the silent hero. But he had Cortana to do the talking for him. Advent rising had no one to talk or help. Any in game dialogue was impossible to hear, and it was mostly stupid stuff anyways. There was really no one to say 'thats what your looking for up ahead there' or 'this is the enemy hideout'. There was only one part of the game where a character gave directions like 'go right here'. The rest was like 'ok run around and achieve this ambiguous goal.' Also, the character did things that had absolutley no explanation. Will the sequels expain them? I hope so.

Ratchet and Clank are also funny, but very childish. I haven't played any since the first one. Starcraft's single player story did a brilliant job of showing a war from different race's perspectives.

Timespliters: Future Perfect on the other hand, is one of the best games i've ever played. The story is delivered flawlessly. Its is the most movie like gave i've played and thats not the first time i've said that, it was sooo funny. So many good lines. Its what games should try to achieve. I know that games are an entireley different modicum from movies, but i think the more games emulate movies and books, the better they are to play. What better way than to develope a character than have a person play as that character? But it isn't enough.
 

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Posted by Mullitt (Member # 7826) on :
 
I love TimeSplitters: Future Perfect also. It's definitely my favorite console FPS. And Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal, while still a bit childish, has some humor kids just won't understand. I agree with you about the developing character thing, which is something more games need to focus on. Games are usually 10 times longer than a movie, we should get some serious development happening.
Even More Off Topic: Do you make maps in TimeSplitters? Also, Im a game developer too. Well, an amatuer one, but I'm learning.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
Unfortunately, the story isn't what sells games, which makes it much harder to justify putting in the time and effort to polish the storytelling aspects of a game when a deadline and a budget are breathing down your neck.
 

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Posted by Mahabarata (Member # 7664) on :
 
Talking about Halo, the first novel, The Fall of Reach. It's fantastic, I have read it three times, at least, and it adds so much to the game it self. Wonderful.
 

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Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
 
You know, I quit playing games before they really got very advanced technologically. Just never much of a gamer and shoot em up games bored me, while build a city from scratch games was way too much work. But I remember an old game that I loved. It was called Buried In Time, from presto studios. Great story, some history thrown in, and the puzzles actually made sense and were integral. Does anyone else remember this game. My only wish was that the tech was more advanced. I'd love to see this redone or something like it. Are there really any games of this caliber out there today, or does anyone even know (or even remember this game)?
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I finished Advent Rising last night, and found the story to be well conceived, and mostly well delivered.

Character Development: I didn't expect much-- this isn't a novel, it's a video game. And it's not an RPG, it's an action game. Those who complain that the characters never 'develop' (whatever that means) need to have their expectations adjusted.

In the action genre, the character CAN'T really change too much, because the important element is the interaction between the player and the scenario.

There can be plot twists and changes of atmosphere, and other shifts of middling to maximum effect in the game world-- but of necessity, video game action heroes are static characters because the developers CAN'T make sweeping character decisions and expect the player to feel fully involved. "WHAT??!! My Sith Lord suddenly develops a love for his Mom?! Eff that! I'm playing GTA from now on. . ."

Even in a CRPG, the character development is an illusion. This is because of the strictures of the technology-- complete freedom of choice just isn't available, and thus real character development isn't possible.

I found the cutscenes to be fairly well done, with the exception of the scene between Gideon and the human general-- that was the only portion of the game that I had frame rate problems with. There were some spots when Gideon storms the Seeker's base where the camera stayed locked on to a destroyed object and would not uncenter; that is my biggest technical gripe (now that I think about it, this happened a couple times on the Seeker's ship as well) It IS something that should have been worked out before shipping, but I can forgive the technical flaw because of the strength of the story concept.

And it has a powerful concept. There are some stories that resonate, and no matter how badly they are told, the concept remains alluring. This is why Star Wars eventually works; the power of the myth overcomes the script's stumbling. Advent Rising's story works similarly-- yes, there are weak points; yes, some of the dialogue is not up to literary standard; but the idea EVOKES.

It is an important story, and well told, in my opinion.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
Character development in a video game is kind of a Catch-22.

Either you give the player a lot of freedom to do their own thing and develop the character themselves, OR you present them with a compelling, dramatic character of your own.

If you do the former, then the player's character essentially becomes a cipher, a surrogate, with no dramatic value because the character simply does what he is told. There is never a moment of "Oh no ... what is he going to do?" or "Augh! How could be make such a disastrous choice!" or "Whew! He pulled through!" because YOU did it, as a player, not him.

However, if you do the latter, and create a powerful character with dramatic choices and tragedies of his own, then the player feels restricted, ramrodded into a certain set of predefined choices.

No matter what you do, you're sacrificing something. I personally think that the best solution is to create a more rare kind of dramatic moment that is geared toward a character under the control of the player. Instead of depending on the question, "What is he going to do?" or "Will he make it?" you can create "What am I going to do?" situations. Hard decisions that force players to make tradeoffs, determining what is most important to them, and experiencing bittersweet moments of simultaneous victory and tragedy caused by their decisions.

THAT kind of drama still works, and it combines the virtues of the two options listed above. The character is still a surrogate for you, and still gives you a lot of freedom ... but that freedom necessarily brings with it a degree of drama and tragedy that define not just your character, but YOU as well.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
Wow, good replies.
To fix your camera issues, hit the back button on the controller, it throws the game into a first person view. press back again and things are all peachy keen.
Anyways, about the comparisons to Star Wars, don't you find it frustrating when the script stumbles? When i walked out of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, i felt the same after i had played through Advent Rising. Star Wars was cool, interesting, and powerfully intense. But the script was borderline awful, and the acting had the delivery of a autistic mailman. It frustrated me that the movie could have been almost perfect if the editing/scriptwriting had been differenent. Thats why i think Advent Rising deserves another chance, in the form of a novel.
It would work perfect, because the game is already a part of the enderverse. A large portion of the game revolves around the main character infiltrating the enemy ansible to destroy it. Thats right, ansible, a faster than light communication device. Also a main character mentions Buggers! Totally fits in the enderverse. Although, i doubt Mr. Card has the copyright ability or the want to write such a book, because i know he has many other Enderverse books planned.

About char developement in videogames. This is a tough subject. I've become attached to characters who had almost no speaking lines at all (Cloud ff7, Squall ff8). Sometimes its just the attitude a character displays that developes him. That makes you think "i can't believe he just went throught that." Some games, like Fable, are another example of being terrribly delivered. You make choices, that have no real consequences. *Spoilers* Like at the end, when you have a choice to kill your sister and get ultimate power, or let her live, and have a good life. Its dumb because it completley negates anything you've done up to that point. You could be a total jerk and kill every townsperson and then save her and its all gravy. Also, it doesn't help that the main character has no lines at all. Besides, the good and bad formula was poorly conceived. Killing townspeople was "bad" but from who's point of view. Same with killing thiefs and bad guys... that's "good" but from who's point of view. It should have been dynamic, depending on what kind of person you were trying to be in the game. I ultimateley think that open-ended choose your own adventure games like that don't have much a place in the future of gaming. I could be (and probably am) wrong.
 

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Posted by Peter Howell (Member # 8072) on :
 
I think the perfect example of what Dog is talking about is Gordon Freeman from Half-Life. He never speaks a single word throughout the entire game(s), and there is no point where you are not in complete control of him, seeing things from his own eyes. I don't know how Valve did it, but, they basically managed to create the exact experience that Dog described.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
Games that track your moral choices with "points" (Fable, KOTOR) are usually problematic, for the reasons Marcel describes. I prefer games that track your moral choices with consequences (Fallout, Deus Ex), but that is a much more expensive and difficult strategy. Well worth it, though, in the final product.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Howell:
I think the perfect example of what Dog is talking about is Gordon Freeman from Half-Life. He never speaks a single word throughout the entire game(s), and there is no point where you are not in complete control of him, seeing things from his own eyes. I don't know how Valve did it, but, they basically managed to create the exact experience that Dog described.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mahabarata:
Talking about Halo, the first novel, The Fall of Reach. It's fantastic, I have read it three times, at least, and it adds so much to the game it self. Wonderful.

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Yeah, I read it twice. I also enjoyed First Strike, but the second book that is based around the events of the game bored me a bit. I was looking forward to future Halo books, but the story in Halo 2 really downed my excitement by sucking.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
A quick note-- Advent Rising isn't in the Enderverse. 'Buggers,' as used in the script, is not a racial pejorative; and the ansible concept is used in other sci-fi works.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
I know that advent rising was never intended to be in the Enderverse (or it would have been advertised as such), but i saw how it could definitley fit in with it, and sort of wished it did. Well, i was wrong. :-/

And i'll be damned, you were right about the Ansible. I thought OSC invented the word. Thanks for the info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansible
 

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Posted by Pathos Bill (Member # 8144) on :
 
Terrible? Ouch. IGN gave us a 7.8, Play gave us an 8, and Gamepro gave us a 90% (and is awarding us an Editor's Choice in the next issue). We've had some stinky reviews as well, but none of them would fall into the "terrible" range. I'm sorry you didn't like it, Marcel.

This is a fascinating discussion on characterization in gaming. Our original design for Advent revolved around consequence-based morality (similar to what Puppy mentioned). Unfortunately, we learned that this can only be effectively done on a large scale if you have the resources to practically build a new game around every big decision. I think that the Fable guys realized this as well. Like them, we ended up having to cut away from many (but not all!) of the major decisions and focus on the minor.

So now, killing a space marine in self-defense won't get you sent to a planet-side military trial, but it will cause future encounters with potential space marine allies to go sour.

Ratdog is right on about the strong/weak character dilemma you face writing for a game. For instance, we wanted Gideon to really come off as an arrogant punk in the first part of the game. As his world is destroyed and he discovers these wonderful new abilities, we really wanted to show the conflicting feelings of rage, despair, and hope that would then forge him into a hero. But first he had to be a jerk! Probably one of the greatest challenges we felt in this meta-storytelling was pulling off effective character development without trapping the player inside somebody they didn't want to be.

For a game to be successful in truly dynamic characterization, does it have to require a greater level of surrender from the player? Is this the same thing as the willing suspension of unbelief?

...

Here's an interesting review on the game and on certain reviews of the game:

http://www.playmagazine.com/index.php?fuseaction=SiteMain.showGamePage&Game_ID=88
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
Wow, thanks for the reply Bill! Exactly what part of imput did you have on the game?

Sorry if my terribly written 'review' of your game hurts, but don't take it to harshly (or seriously, haha). What i hated about the game were the serious technical issues that it had, which seriously affected gameplay. My game crashed once, and i had to restart a level a few times. I know that the next game will learn from the first one's mistakes.


I agree with the review you shared. The story was indeed epic. And gideon was a cocky jerk (like when he bragged about taking down the enemy almost single handedly against the ods) but i'm sure by the end of the third game, he'll be as serious and powerful as Luke Skywalker was in Return of the Jedi. Like Gideon, Luke started off as cocky, arrogant, and almost ignorant. When Luke lost everything he knew, he learned great power and became a hero.

Now, about characterization. Games that feature complex morality based gameplay (like the one you attempted) will always be plagued with problems, because they are... too complicated and fail to give what they promise. Will Wright showed us his vision of what games might become with "Spore".

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/595/595975p1.html?fromint=1

No more than half an hour ago, i finished reading Michael Crichton's "PREY". It was terrible. Besides being far fetched, it was a whirlwind of confusion and unsolved mysteries that weren't even solved when the book was over. But the book is relevent to our discussion because it made the point that artificial intelligence and morality of machines can only be achieved through very basic rules that allow the intelligence to grow and learn and 'evolve'. Wouldn't it be amazing to play against robots that TRULY learned your tactics, mimiced them, and even commented on them? Or if characters in a village responded realistically to you, not because they were programmed to do so, but because they had learned to act that way, wouldn't that be amazing? Or would that be a step in the wrong direction for games? Should they be extremely linear and allow for the no room. I liked how in Advent Rising, you could choose who you wanted to save, and it affected the rest of the game, but not adversley. Nice touch.

In a indie flash game i built, i tried playing with the whole 'choose your own adventure' gameplay in the form of a basic RPG. You could save the princess, or save up enough cash to buy your own castle. Or both. And how you got the money was up to you. Get a real job somewhere, or become a bounty hunter, or pickpocket. Or all of the above. It was incredibly hard to do, and i still haven't finished :-P. I can see why you would go with a different direction, Bill. A lot of games tout the "Every decision has a consequence". Streets of L.A. was another pretty terrible game with the 'good cop/bad cop' meter. Hahah, what a joke. It tried to emulate a movie though, but it was riddled with cliches at every corner.

I cannot answer your question, Bill, about what level of surrender is required of a player. I enjoy games like the Sims as much as games like Halo. People all over have been asking for a game where they can do anything they want, like in real life. That game has been attempted before, and it will again. When will a game attempt it and deliver?
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
That's a great article — nice when a reviewer actually "gets it". I love Play.

Hey, which guy at GlyphX are you? Do I know you? (This is Geoff Card.)
 

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Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
 
I feel I must interject here and mention that Wing Commander 4 also had the neat "what do I choose here" type of conundrum-with-consequences gameplay, and the choices you made severely impacted the game (unlike most choices in WC3).

I mention this not to add any sort of relevant or insightful commentary to the discussion, but simply because WC4 was awesome and I like to grab every opportunity I can to showcase my fanboyish tendencies with regards to the Wing Commander series and insist that everyone track down copies of the game and play it. Now.
 

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Posted by K.K. Slyder (Member # 7416) on :
 
Is Pathos Bill- is he Donald Mustard? That's what I thought anyways.

I for one really enjoyed the game (and I still haven't finished it- I have to wait for it to come out on PC- but I've been playing on my friend's XBOX) T

he technical aspects really did bug me- but the overall game was really good. My friend was like- I think I'm going to sell this game once I beat it- but then you got Lift and then Surge. As soon as we got Lift my friend was like- this is freaking awesome- just throw em off a bridge. And then you can go into bullettime and pull some cool moves.

I also thought the story rocked- there were some lines that were kind of cheesy- but I loved the cinematics. I was telling my friend how I loved how "epic" this game was- then I had to define to him what 'epic' meant, but I love how everything is on a giant scale.

I really enjoyed this game's art design- not the ultra-realism that plagues the game market- but more of an artistic approach. The only things I didn't like about the graphics were: the human models- the Aurelian and Seeker models looked awesome- but I thought that the human ones didn't look at all that real. And then- I'm not sure what they're called- Lens Flares or Halos I think- what happens when you look at the sun at a weird angle. Even in the cinematics the halo rings were just big multicolored balls.

Flick Targeting too was something I enjoyed- the hardest problem with that was I would try and run away and it would Flick back, but other than that- Flick targeting is awesome.

If I'm not mistaken I do believe this is GlyphX's first game- and for a first game- must I say that I am astonished. Now some areas of the game did suck a little- I don't like technical errors. But- now that GlyphX has proven that even despite some errors- it can still create an amazing game- and hopefully now it's proven that- it might be able to have a larger budget. And then it can hire more game testers and programmers to debug those bugs.

Best game I've played in a long time I think- but still annoying in some areas.
 

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Posted by Pathos Bill (Member # 8144) on :
 
Thanks for the kind words, Marcel. Nothing wrong with a good critique but could we change the title of this Topic to "Advent Rising has some technical flaws"? The term "Terrible" makes it sound like our game will insult you while punching you in the neck repeatedly. The word should be reserved for Nazis and Uwe Boll films.

I was part of the original team of seven guys who pitched this game to Majesco. I wrote up much of the design document and helped design many of the characters and environments - the big bounty hunter Skinwalker is taken from one of my concept sketches. Our team didn't grow much beyond that for the first year of production (I know, I know - bad mistake!) and so I got to do a little bit of everything with the game. Near the end of the developement, I took the role of Lead Level Designer. It was fun because it allowed me to still have my hands in a little bit of everything.

The coolest role I got to play, however, was picking up the script where Mr. Card left off. Attempting to craft the storyline along the trajectory he had set was a fascinating challenge.

Geoff: I agree with you - Play Magazine is one of the only gaming publications out there that is <<gasp>> fun to read. The reviewers have come to the stunning realization that framerate, poly-count and normal mapping should be nothing more than sidebars to the bigger question: is this game fun to play? And their enjoyment of the Art of Fun is palpable.

Oh, and this is Cameron. Not trying to be enigmatic, really. I assumed my email was visible.

Good guess, though, K.K. -- Donald and I went to school together and were the first two graduates from BYU's animation program.

But enough about me - can we get this topic title changed already? Or so help me I'll start a new topic!
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
All right, cool your jets mr. man, I changed the topic title. Not because i take back what i mean by what i said in the review, or because i have no integrity, but because my words were harsh, and i used them to get a reaction. Well Mission accomplished.
Wow man, i hope i have a job like you some day. I write now i'm getting paid to do flash web intros and stuff for websites, but i've made a slew of flash games on the way for fun, which i hope looks good in my portfolio, if i ever go into anything like that as a career. Who knows. I have one question, Cameron. What should i major in? I am heading off to college very soon. I have ambition.

Anyways, i had a question, since you had a part in the shaping the storyline. Do you have access to the script somewhere and paste what Ethan/Olivia says at the end? I swear the sound of their own echo drowns the sound out and i really wanted to hear. The only word i heard was "Seeker", haha. Maybe you could copy/paste it here, or at least summarize it. Also, could you provide insight as to what the seekers were scanning for? Please? :-P

Man i sound like a such a sheep fanboy, especially after all the complaining i did about the game.
aw well.
Also, Cameron, one question that wasn't answered in the other topic. When exactly does OSC stop writing for the screenplay? Also, about how much was cut from the original screenplay, and is it available for reading somewhere?

[ June 09, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Marcelarrow ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
:lol:
 

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Posted by Mullitt (Member # 7826) on :
 
When is the PC version coming out? I don't have an Xbox, and I hear that the PC version will probably not suffer from the bad technical problems. Also, will the controls work with just a keyboard/mouse? Or will I have to buy a gamepad? And it's great to have a few game designers here- amateur or not.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
The PC release is set at 06/30/2005. Thats all i know about it.
 

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Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
 
PC version works just fine with the mouse/keyboard. I played a little of it at E3, and the controls seemed very intuitive. I was afraid this would be difficult to play without a gamepad, but the way the targeting and movement controls work seems to do just fine with mouse and keyboard.
 

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Posted by Pathos Bill (Member # 8144) on :
 
LOL Marcel! I appreciate it.

For certain legal reasons I can't give you the script or even excerpts, but the gist of the Koroem dialog is that he (or she) is a TRUE human and that Gideon is the remnant of an overambitious race that committed the sacrilege of mimicking the human form. These upstart creatures were warned repeatedly to no avail, and so the loyal Seekers were charged with the horrible but necessary mission of destroying them. The Koroem is essentially trying to interdict the Aurelian charge against the Seekers, and to make Gideon appear to be a criminal before the Senate.

As for career questions and general non-Advent story stuff, I suppose I should start a thread over on the Other Side so as to avoid a tangent too far from the thrust of "Discussion on OSC" forum.

I actually prefer the PC controls, Bekenn (being an avid PC gamer may have something to do with that). You have the added accuracy of the mouse-targeting, and for those who loved the "flick," you can scroll the mouse wheel to cycle through the nearest bad guys. Left and right mouse button are left and right hand. And if you would rather have it some other way, we have a fully customizable control setup ('cuz we hate PC games that don't allow that).

BTW, I forgot to thank you for your kind words as well, K.K. You can avoid the flick targeting "flicking back" as you run through several methods. First, you can lessen the controller sensitivity in the options menu (we set that up because we found that everyone has a different "flick strength"). Or you can deselect the Lift power and put something else in your free hand when you are ready to run. Finally, a swift "pop" down on the right analog stick will clear any selected item. Hope that helps, and I'm glad you're enjoying the game!
 

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Posted by Mullitt (Member # 7826) on :
 
Good, then I'll buy the PC version. It will work with a Intel Xtreme Pro Savage DDR, 128 MB RAM and a 455 Mhz processor, right? Right?
(Just kidding. My processor is better).
 

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Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pathos Bill:
I actually prefer the PC controls, Bekenn (being an avid PC gamer may have something to do with that).

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quote:

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Gamepads are not good for first-person shooters, and I imagine that has a bit to do with why you chose flick targeting in the first place, neh?

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If there so bad then why are there so many console first person shooters? Besides, AR is so different from Halo, why bother comparing? AR had a pointless First Person mode. First Person shooting was inferior to the flick targeting system, for this game, anyways.

[ June 09, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Marcelarrow ]
 

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Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
 
There are so many console first-person shooters because there's something about that style of gameplay is, for whatever reason, appealing to large amounts of people. For the sake of that style of gameplay, most especially the multiplayer aspect, people are willing to put up with the crummy control scheme.

I imagine it would be very difficult to find an fps champion who actually prefers the gamepad to the mouse-and-keyboard setup.

I guarantee you that on a game server that allows both console and PC players to play in the same game, mouse-and-keyboard players will pretty much always trounce gamepad players.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
Ive never played a mouse and keyboard first person shooter, unless you count "Descent". I prefer the the console controller. Haven't you seen the countless people who play halo? These people learn how to shoot the sniper rifle and get headshots without using the scope. The controller is no longer the bulking mass that was hard to figure out, like teh N64 pad was.
 

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Posted by Mullitt (Member # 7826) on :
 
Mouse and keyboard is pretty much universally excepted as the way to control an FPS, unless you're talking to console gamers, which for some reason can't do it. I can use both fine, I just prefer the accuracy of a mouse.
 

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Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
 
As for comparing AR with Halo, uh... I didn't. I mentioned Halo as a means of contrasting control schemes which amount to movement, targeting, and shooting in a real-time action environment. My point was simply that flick targeting makes a great deal of sense when designing an action game for multiple platforms with wildly differing input devices, and brought up the Halo control scheme because

1) it could potentially work for this game, to the same degree that it works for Halo (there but for a design choice go we) and

2) people are familiar with the Halo control scheme, so I don't feel I need to go into detail describing it just to highlight the differences between that control scheme and AR's.

I was looking at the control schemes, not the games themselves.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
Sorry , i wasnt trying to accuse you of anything.

And i actually agree with you, but now that every next gen controller has dual analog sticks, they all support first person shooters. Also, i'm not as sure as you about it being difficult to find someone who prefers controllers to mouses and keyboards. Besides , logistically, between the two, which were designed for gaming in the first place? Theres only one keyboard i know out there that is designed for use with Doom 3.

Also, in AR, you have the choice to enter the first person mode, and it plays and looks similar to Halo.
 

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Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
 
Hey, no worries; if I come off as at all hostile or defensive or adversarial, that's probably due at least in part to my strong aversion to smilies. Don't like 'em, never have, and I ain't givin' up on not using 'em, dagnab it!

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Originally posted by Marcelarrow:
now that every next gen controller has dual analog sticks, they all support first person shooters.

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Also, i'm not as sure as you about it being difficult to find someone who prefers controllers to mouses and keyboards.

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Besides, logistically, between the two, which were designed for gaming in the first place?

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Theres only one keyboard i know out there that is designed for use with Doom 3.

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Yup. And you'll find that almost nobody would ever want to purchase it, because normal keyboards already work just fine.
 

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Posted by Marcelarrow (Member # 8198) on :
 
What the heck is wrong with smilies? Emoticons are just as nessesary in displaying emotions as the punctuation marks at the end of sentences!1!!!

I agree some are a little dumb and out of controls, but... i mean, some are really purposeful.



Ahem.

With that said....

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But when you limit your choices to those who are accustomed to both modes of play and do well with them, I'd bet you dollars to donuts that finding someone who prefers dual analog sticks to mouse-and-keyboard would be very hard.

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which, I suppose I should mention, are not really games that I tend to enjoy

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So you spending all this arguing over something you don't even do? What kinds of games DO you enjoy? Fpsers, are probably my favorite, because of the multiplayer aspect. Quite simply, i don't purchase single player games. Playing games by myself isn't too much fun. But get a group of 4 together for ANY multiplayer game and its usually a blast (but i HATE sports games). For example, Super Smash Brothers (both N64 and Melee). I love those games, how about you?

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Moreover, the speed at which you can turn around is limited entirely by how fast you decide to move the mouse, combined with a mouse sensitivity setting. A mouse user can turn 180 degrees in a small fraction of a second without any special "turn 180 degrees" command, whereas someone using an analog stick bumps up against a maximum rotation speed.

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because normal keyboards already work just fine.

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Originally posted by Marcelarrow:
What the heck is wrong with smilies? Emoticons are just as nessesary in displaying emotions as the punctuation marks at the end of sentences!1!!!

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Console FPSers are always more... casual when it comes to gaming.

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I'm not saying console gamers aren't any less dedicated sometimes though. I'm sure you've at least heard of massive 16+ player lan games.

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I've participated in them. I think they are more fun than online play, too.

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So you spending all this arguing over something you don't even do?

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What kinds of games DO you enjoy?

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Fpsers, are probably my favorite, because of the multiplayer aspect. Quite simply, i don't purchase single player games. Playing games by myself isn't too much fun. But get a group of 4 together for ANY multiplayer game and its usually a blast (but i HATE sports games).

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For example, Super Smash Brothers (both N64 and Melee). I love those games, how about you?

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Well, there is a sensitivity adjustment for most first person shooters, and as i said before, i know gamers who can snipe heads without zooming in. Thats a task that you might think would require the precision of a mouse.

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Also, in the years i've been playing games, i never thought to myself 'boy i wish i could turn around faster'.

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On the other hand, i haven't really played too many PC shooters. Is the difference THAT marginal?

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I think its kinda funny that games have evolved the use of a KEYBOARD and mouse to play their games. Imagine telling the creator of the Qwerty typewriter that people would be using his tool, not only for its original purpose, but to play games.

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