I think OSC needs a hug. He seems somewhat upset about the review that Entertainment Weekly did of Magic Street .
Posted by R. Ann Dryden (Member # 8186) on :
I think whoever wrote that review was so concerned with making some kind of trite little statement about each book reviewed that he/she didn't actually allow themselves to be immersed in the worlds.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
Well, that "review" doesn't really seem to say much - other than that the reviewer seems to believe that all SciFi/Fantasy have the same plot.
I haven't read Magic Street yet, but I ahve enough trust in OSC's writing to be fairly certain I'll enjoy it.
A little off topic - one thing that I really, REALLY like about OSC is that many of his books have substantially different styles. What I mean is that the 'feel' of his books aren't always the same. With some authors that I enjoy, one of their books is about the same as all of them (the plots might be vastly different, but the style can be almost identicle). With OSC's books, there is a huge amount of variety, it seems to me, in how the books are written.
I suppose that would suggest that some people will love one of his books and hate another one - luckily for me, though, I've found all the ones I've read to be very rewarding.
Posted by Dog Walker (Member # 8301) on :
I read Magic Street and loved it. I dont really care what the critics say anymore. I thought this was one of OSC's better novels. I also agree that OSC has many different styles but have yet to read one book I didn't like ( well maybe Treason) Posted by BryanP (Member # 7772) on :
C'mon, you can't trust anything EW says. Heck, I remember their reviewer gave Hannibal a B+. WHAT??!!
I rarely agree with any of their reviews, whether for movies, books or music. They dislike almost everything I love, so they may as well dislike Card.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
A useful review is one that allows a reader to decided if he will like the book without giving too much away.
This review gave no such information except that Noah Robischon didn't like the book.
Let's see. Should I trust the opinion of some guy who writes book reviews for EW, or should I trust my favorite active author, who's written 3 of my top 10 favorite books and at least 10 of my top 100?
How on earth will I decide?
Posted by Jiminy (Member # 7917) on :
Men do not hug. *Gives OSC a friendly brutal-punch-on-the-shoulder*
Dagonee basically nailed it. This Robischon guy apparently thinks very highly of himself. He made no effort at all of convincing me that his verdict is worth half a gallon of stale milk, let alone worth listening to. He simply took it as a given that everyone trusts and agrees with him, and gave us the equivalent of the concluding paragraph in a second-grader's book report.
I haven't read Magic Street yet, but it is sat half a foot to the left of my keyboard, and will be started soon. I find it astronomically unlikely that this story, all at once, was deemed worthy to publish by OSC, and deserved a D. In fact, using letter grades like that is insufferably pretentious all by itself.
[ July 03, 2005, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Jiminy ]
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
What a useless review! It provides no information about what type of readers will enjoy the book and which would be better served reading something else. How hard it must be to see a work that you love get negative reviews. On the flip side, how great to hear all the glowing reviews from fans around here. I can't wait till I get paid on Friday and can buy my own copy. Hugs Theresa
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
*Anger growing against stupid reviewers* Haven't read it yet but since I haven't read anything by Mr. Card I haven't liked I am sure I will like Magic Street. I liked the short.
quote: Men do not hug. *Gives OSC a friendly brutal-punch-on-the-shoulder*
Haha used to be same way, then joined High school drama.
((OSC))
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
drama club I guess I should say not drama. I think everything in high school was drama in one way or another... Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I tend not to look at single reviews, but rather as many as I can find to get an idea of what the general opinion is on a book or film. In addition, I prefer reviews from average Joes rather than professional sources.
However, since Card is a writer I like already I tend to cut him a little more slack (as I would with all my favorites) than just any writer. So reviews hold less weight for me with authors I already enjoy.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
I seem to only read reviews of books I've already read. Too many times I've read a review that leads me to not read the book for a year or so, only to read the book and end up loving it.
Generally, if I'm looking for a new author I just ask my friends - or come on a messageboard (like this) and tell people what I like and ask for suggestions.
... I do about the same for movies - since most of my favourite movies have had terrible reviews.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Thanks for the encouraging words. And the impulse behind the "hug" is a noble one.
So this is not at all a complaint when I point out that hugging - the real thing, not the virtual kind - is not a universal favorite. For some people, a hug really does give the kind of "you belong to a community and are valued" message that is intended. And heaven knows we are hardwired to appreciate physical stroking.
But I have grown up, somehow, to have a real aversion to people who take physical liberties with me. Intrusion into my space, that kind of thing. I can do the "Hollywood hug" with the best of them, but in fact I loathe people who assume they have a right to touch my body. (Again, I do not refer to anyone on this thread; just speaking of real-world physical contact.)
First, there is often a message of superiority being given - like when men at church put their arm around another man's shoulder: the message is, I'm your superior. It's condescending.
Then there is that horrible PROBING touch. Like we do to children - the hair-tousle, the tickle. People do this to fat people all the time. As soon as I started gaining weight in my early teens, people thought they had a RIGHT to grab at my middle. That's the surest way to earn my permanent loathing and it always has been. Then again, I've never understood guys who think they have a right to touch women's body parts. It's as if some people think they have a right to touch anything they notice, even if it is intimately attached to another person's body.
So maybe it's just by extension from these obnoxious touches that I have come to resent ANY touch from someone with whom I do not already have an intimate relationship.
But I think it's probably that I'm an introvert, and it takes time for me to feel comfortable with another person - usually YEARS - and so anything other than the socially formalized handshake (or, in Hollywood, the fake hug-kiss, which is equally formalized) feels like an assertion of a relationship that has not been mutually agreed upon. I like a little formality when I first meet someone - I appreciate the respect of "Mr." or (in Mormon society) "Brother." I despise salesmen who assert a first-name relationship upon first meeting.
As for the punch in the shoulder - I was a nonviolent kid who hated pain of any kind and since I didn't inflict it on others, it seemed only fair for people to keep their doggone hands to themselves. I don't think of it as "manly." I think of it as appallingly rude and indicative of an inability to communicate verbally <grin>.
[ July 05, 2005, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Orson Scott Card ]
Posted by Oobie Binoobie (Member # 8059) on :
I guess that settles the "What do you like to be called?" question. :-)
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I guess these things are inherited I didn't gain weight until my late twenties, so I had no problem with that kind of obnoxious touching at a young age. Maybe the fact that my father was uncomfortable with a lot of touching somehow made me uncomfortable with it, but I always react like I've been tickled when someone touches me unexpectedly, and I never seek it out unless I'm seriously intimate with someone. (I used to hug girls a lot in high school, but at that age, all that meant was, I wanted to be seriously intimate with ALL of them.)
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I used to be physically distanced from others too. I found it hard to be around anyone that would give a hug or even stand to close when talking to me. Since my nature is similar to Mr. Card’s (an introvert that needs a lot of time before I become comfortable with someone) I often found those who violated my personal space as rude and offensive. Then I went to work in the medical field and that all came to an end. Heh, heh, heh.
You see, in the medical industry, you have to work in extremely close proximity to your fellow health care providers when treating patients (especially during emergency situations – Ever watch E.R.?).
We often have to get right on top or side-by-side of each other. Sometimes we become human pretzels as our arms interweave through one another. This happens as a result of more than two hands being needed to work a single problem. We pull equipment out of each other’s pockets, pile our hands on top of one another when doing something like applying pressure to a bleed site, and just rub up against one another as we try to put several people in a space meant for one. I guess you could say we all have sex by proxy. LOL
So when I first became a part of that it was REALLY hard to get used to. To make it worse, most health care providers are very touchy-feely people as a result of always being in close contact with each other (just like lovers - LOL). So when one of the girls would come up to me, it was not unusual for them to throw an arm around you when talking about whatever. This made me highly uncomfortable for a long time. Let’s not even mention the first time on of the guys came up behind me and started to massage my shoulders after a rough shift! And he was straight too, but it still made me feel awkward. My mind was screaming for him to quit, but I knew I would be casting myself out of the social order if I refused.
Now I could care less. It’s funny when I walk up to some newbie and throw my arm around him or her. You can see them cringe, and you know they’re thinking: What the hell does this clown think he’s doing? LOL
So I can understand where OSC is coming from. I used to be in the same boat.
*Opens arms to give OSC a big hug* Posted by estavares (Member # 7170) on :
I noticed people felt the need to touch my wife's belly when she was pregnant, as if somehow that gave everyone permisison to stroke her tummy.
Most of these meant well, I think, but it was weird how some things seem to bring out the touchy-feeling in lots of other people who normally keep their distance...
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Yeah, they do that to my wife, too. Totally annoys us both Posted by Jiminy (Member # 7917) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: As for the punch in the shoulder - I was a nonviolent kid who hated pain of any kind and since I didn't inflict it on others, it seemed only fair for people to keep their doggone hands to themselves. I don't think of it as "manly." I think of it as appallingly rude and indicative of an inability to communicate verbally <grin>.
You don't have to convince me; I'm wearing a tie-dye shirt and sandals right now. You won't find me doin' no punchin', suh.
I'm more-or-less where you are on the physical contact thing. It is pretty uncommon for people I *do* know to hug me, unless I happen to be dating the person at the time, and I would feel downright strange if someone else tried it.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
Stinkin hippies! You'll hug trees, but you won't hug each other! Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: Yeah, they do that to my wife, too. Totally annoys us both
*blink* Is that meant to be an announcement, Geoff?
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Heh heh Maybe.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*goes off to find splinters and red-hot poker*
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
People do that to me, too, to find out if I'm pregnant. I then end up strong-arming them, giving them a lecture about never touching my body again unless I give permission, and telling them to mind their own business about my reproduction.
I tried being polite. Didn't work.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
People go after you with splinters and red-hot pokers?
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I think it's possible to be firm and polite - icy reserve rather than white-hot anger. But then, I have perfected a completely blank stare that communicates my nonrecognition of the humanity of the other person. A simple question - "what other parts of my body do you think you have a right to touch?" - will usually abash them and earn an apology and a three-foot space - and the end of the conversation, especially if you turn away and give them, literally, the cold shoulder. That will be the last time that person touches you - unless, of course, it is a relative from whom there is no escape. <grin>
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Rivka, your remark was taken as an aside between you and Geoff.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
That review gave no reason why Magic Street was bad, just one sentence saying that it was bad. It did manage to give away way more of the plot than it probably had to, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*abashed*
Sorry, that was over the top. I'll behave.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Yup, that was definitely an aside between rivka and me. A pretty funny one, too Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*relieved* Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
*Looks at Title.* *Hugs OSC* (((OSC))).
I know people think I'm supposed to be the Anticard, but frankly - you're a great person. I don't know why it appears so, but I'm sorry if I've driven you to the point of... well - any point on negative scales.
You're still the author I use most in book reports!
JH
Posted by lego feet (Member # 8093) on :
I find handshakes to be too corporate. Too boring.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I think we should just bring back bowing. It's a fine way to greet someone or pay them respect, and nobody has to touch anybody. (I don't like being touched either. Unless it's by a pretty young lady. Which isn't very often.)
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
quote:Originally posted by lego feet: I find handshakes to be too corporate. Too boring.
But not everyone is comfortable with physical contact. Over the years I've found it quite easy to ID through body language if it is acceptable for me to embrace someone or not. Most people will give very subtle hints that let you know in advance if it's okay or not.
Handshakes can be very personal in their own right. For example, the double clasp (where you put your left hand on top of the entire handshake) is a good way to express simple affection for someone without violating his or her personal space. Just make sure to clap your other hand down as straightforward as possible, otherwise it can become overly personal. LOL
A handshake need not be sterile nor cold.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Actually, I hate that clasping thing. "Violating" may be too strong a word, but . . . I don't know, it makes me very uncomfortable.
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
LOL I remember those days Verily. I can respect that mindset even though I personally am happier that I have broken out of it. Nothing wrong with wanting the sanctity of your body respected. Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm not trying to break up your "I'm uncomfortable with people touching me." fest, but I would like to point out that there are people who are uncomfortable when they can't have human contact. I'm a very tactile person. I enjoy touching things and people. One of the things that really calms me down is to give someone else a massage. I like contact sports in part because of the contact thing.
Seeng as how this is the internet, I may be the only person who's oging to represent this side, but I thought it might be important to note that they exist. Sort of like how I enjoyed high school.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
want to hear a weird story? well when I was born my parents were told that babys like to be held and hugged, etc. Well not me. If anyone tried to hug me I would curl up in the fetal position and cry untill they stopped. My mom, my dad, everyone. Weird hugh?
Posted by Exploding Monkey (Member # 7612) on :
I'm with you Squicky. Physical contact gives me a much more intimate relationship with the people around me (those that allow it anyhow).
I think those that do not enjoy contact feel as though they are being violated on a psychological and/or a sexual level. I believe this because that’s how I used to feel before I entered into medicine. Unnecessary contact to me felt like a sexual violation, unless I felt that person was trying to open up emotionally to me. If that was the case, then to initiate unwanted contact with me was the same as being mentally violated; as if the person was entering my thought processes without permission (think of a Vulcan mind meld, but more like a mind rape). So I can understand when others do not like contact, and I can respect their wishes regarding it.
Unfortunately for me, by physically separating from others I was missing out on an important facet of fellowship. I can’t see myself anymore not hugging my friends or putting my arm around someone I care about when we are sharing an important emotional moment. And as you said, tackling someone in football, or getting a massage from a friend is an important part of your life experience, as it is mine. These experiences are still mental connections for me, but I embrace them now rather than shun them. All I am saying is I can appreciate the other end of the spectrum; even though I feel those people are missing out by restricting themselves like that.
I believe through my own personal experiences that physical contact is just as important in human interaction as speech is.
Orange,
There has been evidence to support the claim that tactile contact in the first six months of an infant's life helps to create more neurons in the brain. Touch is an important part of the human experience IMHO.
Posted by estavares (Member # 7170) on :
I think we swing too far to either side at times. I agree with Squicky in that it can be important to others. So much of it is cultural and learned behavior; my first "bisou" (cheek to cheek) in France was embarrassing at first but then you get used to it. Friends from Japan love to stand right next to me which is tough sometimes, but I can get used to it.
For me, it's a matter of sincerity. If the touch feels like a sincere gesture of affection or connection (from a man or woman), I can usually tell. And it's fine. If I get creeped out, it's a sure sign there's more than meets the eye.
Posted by Haloed Silhouette (Member # 8062) on :
This whole handshake business reminds me of Seinfeld's first episode, greeting what'shername at the airport.
Posted by Gsee (Member # 3479) on :
"I think we should just bring back bowing. It's a fine way to greet someone or pay them respect, and nobody has to touch anybody."
Bowing are you insane? Some of us have a bad back
Maybee we could just stick to hello.
Posted by Thantos_2000 (Member # 8285) on :
I consider myself to be a touchy person but one time at church this lady walks up to me and hugs me. It total gave me the heebeegeebees (sp). My wife was standing right next to me looked at me like, "what in the world is she doing?" I can also tell you that a couple of weeks ago I saw a co-worker I hadn't seen in a long time she gave me a hug and I couldn't have been happier to hug her back. (I should be mentioned my wife was standing there waiting for her hug) I guess its all about the relationship and the context of the gesture. After reading all of osc's books I feel like I know you and I would love to give you a bear hug. Samoan Style.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I should point out that I don't hate all forms of human contact. For example, I have a friend who, just about every time I go to visit her, asks me for a massage. I'm more than happy to oblige, frankly, and before anyone says anything, no, there's nothing sexual about it. We really are just friends, and neither of us gets any sexual gratification out of it. Which is not at all the same thing as saying we get no physical gratification out of it. We both do, in fact, and yes, humans are supposed to be an intimate, tactile species.
But there's a vast gulf between giving a massage to a friend whom you've known for a decade, and having random people you barely know--or don't know at all!--just come up to you and take physical liberties. If you don't know me, don't touch me. You haven't earned the right to act that close.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
wait, wait, wait.
If this is true:
quote: First, there is often a message of superiority being given - like when men at church put their arm around another man's shoulder: the message is, I'm your superior. It's condescending.
then what exactly does THIS PHOTO say about you and Bob_Scopatz?
FG
Posted by Thantos_2000 (Member # 8285) on :
Ok, Here is something that just happened to me I was talking to this lady I wanted to give her a hug, but I was afraid she didn't want a hug so I reached up and gave her shoulder a gentle squeeze, as if to say, "I wanted to hug you, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea".
Now, I'm not hugging, I'm giving a shoulder squeezes. And I'm completely self-conscience about it.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
haha i love photoshop! (hey i did it in 5 minutes, so i know its not all that good, and no disrespect is meant, i just thought it was funny)
[ July 06, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Angiomorphism ]
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: wait, wait, wait.
If this is true:
quote: First, there is often a message of superiority being given - like when men at church put their arm around another man's shoulder: the message is, I'm your superior. It's condescending.
then what exactly does THIS PHOTO say about you and Bob_Scopatz?
FG
It says they weren't in church?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Well, Chris -- with your stance in that photo - of course he didn't put his arm around you! Those folded arms just say "don't touch me!" all over the place!
angio -- can you shorten the link (since it doesn't seem to work anyway) so it doesn't mess up the thread size please?
FG
Posted by dab (Member # 7847) on :
For me the worst thing as a child was when my aunts and grandmother would try to kiss me goodbye. slobber on the face as a kid is terrible.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I think OSC hates me....... Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
you think everyone hates you.
::: gives Steve a nuggie to make him feel better.:::
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*pat pat*
Everyone thinks OSC hates them.
(Except probably Puppy and KACard.)
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:But I have grown up, somehow, to have a real aversion to people who take physical liberties with me.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about being kissed by dogs?
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
And does the size of the dog make a difference?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I blinked at Geoff's comment too rivka. I found myself wondering if I was just behind in the news.
As for touchy feely, I used to be a lot more huggy than I am. I still don't mind it when people hug me, but it does weird me out if it's someone I don't know very well. There's the hug that signals "Yes. We are now very good friends and I'm signifying this to everyone else by hugging you at the end of our very short and meaningless conversation in the hallway." I hate those.
On the other hand, I do touch people a lot when I talk to them. (Never on the stomach, I hate that!) I don't know why I do it, but I'll touch them on the forearm (if their arms are folded and they're in front of me), or on the upper arm. I'm not sure if I do it to reassure myself that the person is still there in front of me (duh!) or to more fully make a point. I think I do it a lot when I'm giving a compliment or reassuring someone. And it's definitely not a grab, just light touches here and there. It's weird.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: I blinked at Geoff's comment too rivka. I found myself wondering if I was just behind in the news.
Well, since OSC stated outright (at the signing) that there will be a grandchild in December, I guess we can stop blinking. Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
I have always been a little uncomfortable with people I didn't know really well hugging me. There are some guys my age who I wouldn't let hug me for a long time, and I would just say "don't touch me" and glare at them. I am good friends with them now, and I would hug them, but now they think I just don't like hugs. They decided I have a "bubble", and no one is allowed in the "bubble".
But what I really hate people doing is using me as an armrest. I know I'm short! I know my head and or shoulders are the right height for an armrest for you! But that doesn't mean you have to use me as one!
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
Didn't work.
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People go after you with splinters and red-hot pokers?
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
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