This is topic "Dropping" Debt is a Lie! in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.

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Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
Did you know that when they talk about "dropping" the debt of Africa, as they have done in the past, the debt DOES NOT actually get dropped?
The banks transfer that debt from them to us (USA/UK/etc.)...
...It isn't a debt drop it's a debt transfer!

People should be demonstrating against the BANKS to drop the debt, not the government!
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
The banks can't afford to drop the debt. Writing off debts is always charged to OTHER debtors - or the banks go out of business. In other words, banks can't adopt anti-profitable policies without violating their fiduciary trust.

So the only way to "forgive" third-world debt is for someone else to pick up the principal, at least. Otherwise, all the OTHER depositors are being cheated. (And/or the bank's stockholders.)
Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
it's nonsense to say the banks can't afford it,
American debt is 4 trillion dollars while there are only $263 billion of Federal Reserve notes in circulation, only a small percentage of which can be accounted for.
They *better* start dropping some debts because there are more debts then electronic money in deposit.

While I understand why share holders may feel cheated, in any case the lie of debt being "dropped" should no longer be perpetuated.
Posted by TheDisgruntledPostman (Member # 7200) on :
Mr.Card, you always have an answer [Wink]
Posted by Jiminy (Member # 7917) on :
Global economy is one of those topics where nobody should give a damn about the opinions of the masses; it's far too complex to think that everybody understands it to a degree worhty of being listened to. "Those guys need some help" is fine, but please, people, stop imagining you understand how to go about it.

For the record, I am one of the random Joes who doesn't understand these nuances.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Antony, you seem pretty angry about banks and debts, beyond the point of reason ... did someone just foreclose on you or something? [Smile]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

They *better* start dropping some debts because there are more debts then electronic money in deposit.

No, see, this isn't actually a bad thing. It's called monetary policy.
Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
Antony, you seem pretty angry about banks and debts, beyond the point of reason ... did someone just foreclose on you or something?

haha lol! yeah I really hate banks
My own reading led me to this point but I don't really care to expand much because it opens a whole can of worms. Due to the difference between debt and actual money described before the banks actually weild so much more power then is actually reasonable...

The point I'm making though is that people should not be led to believe that Africa (for example) is indebted to US when that is clearly not the case and it is our banks they are indebted to!
It's a smokescreen because a lot of people would be just as angry as I am if they knew what was really going on...
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
So don't use a bank
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
banks have power because people/governments/companies asked them for money...and agreed to certain terms in exchange for that money. Do you expect banks to simply give away money? It has to come from somewhere.
Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
Federal Reserve as-is is unconstitutional, it should be owned by "we, the people" but it isn't.

Thought Provoking:

A Phone Call To The Fed
From Dan Benham ©1988-2002

The following is a conversation with Mr. Ron Supinski of the Public Information Department of the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank. This is an account of that conversation.

CALLER - Mr. Supinski, does my country own the Federal Reserve System?
MR. SUPINSKI - We are an agency of the government.
CALLER - That's not my question. Is it owned by my country?
MR. SUPINSKI - It is an agency of the government created by congress.
CALLER - Is the Federal Reserve a Corporation?
CALLER - Does my government own any of the stock in the Federal Reserve?
MR. SUPINSKI - No, it is owned by the member banks.
CALLER - Are the member banks private corporations?
CALLER - Are Federal Reserve Notes backed by anything?
MR. SUPINSKI-Yes, by the assets of the Federal Reserve but, primarily by the power of congress to lay tax on the people.
CALLER - Did you say, by the power to collect taxes is what backs Federal Reserve Notes?
CALLER - What are the total assets of the Federal Reserve?
MR. SUPINSKI - The San Francisco Bank has $36 Billion in assets.
CALLER - What are these assets composed of?
MR. SUPINSKI - Gold, the Federal Reserve Bank itself and government securities.
CALLER - What value does the Federal Reserve Bank carry gold per oz. on their books?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't have that information but the San Francisco Bank has $1.6 billion in gold.
CALLER - Are you saying the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco has $1.6 billion in gold, the bank itself and the balance of the assets is government securities?
CALLER - Where does the Federal Reserve get Federal Reserve Notes from?
MR. SUPINSKI - They are authorized by the Treasury.
CALLER - How much does the Federal Reserve pay for a $10 Federal Reserve Note?
MR. SUPINSKI - Fifty to seventy cents.
CALLER - How much do they pay for a $100.00 Federal Reserve Note?
MR. SUPINSKI - The same fifty to seventy cents.
CALLER - To pay only fifty cents for a $100.00 is a tremendous gain, isn't it?
CALLER - According to the US Treasury, the Federal Reserve pays $20.60 per 1,000 denomination or a little over two cents for a $100.00 bill, is that correct?
MR. SUPINSKI - That is probably close.
CALLER - Doesn't the Federal Reserve use the Federal Reserve Notes that cost about two cents each to purchase US Bonds from the government?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, but there is more to it than that.
CALLER - Basically, that is what happens?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, basically you are correct.
CALLER - How many Federal Reserve Notes are in circulation?
MR. SUPINSKI - $263 billion and we can only account for a small percentage.
CALLER - Where did they go?
MR. SUPINSKI - Peoples mattress, buried in their back yards and illegal drug money.
CALLER - Since the debt is payable in Federal Reserve Notes, how can the $4 trillion national debt be paid-off with the total Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.
CALLER - If the Federal Government would collect every Federal Reserve Note in circulation would it be mathematically possible to pay the $4 trillion national debt?
CALLER - Am I correct when I say, $1 deposited in a member bank $8 can be lent out through Fractional Reserve Policy?
MR. SUPINSKI - About $7.
CALLER - Correct me if I am wrong but, $7 of additional Federal Reserve Notes were never put in circulation. But, for lack of better words were "created out of thin air " in the form of credits and the two cents per denomination were not paid either. In other words, the Federal Reserve Notes were not physically printed but, in reality were created by a journal entry and lent at interest. Is that correct?
CALLER - Is that the reason there are only $263 billion Federal Reserve Notes in circulation?
MR. SUPINSKI - That is part of the reason.
CALLER - Am I mistaking that when the Federal Reserve Act was passed (on Christmas Eve) in 1913, it transferred the power to coin and issue our nation's money and to regulate the value thereof from Congress to a Private corporation. And my country now borrows what should be our own money from the Federal Reserve (a private corporation) plus interest. Is that correct and the debt can never be paid off under the current money system of country?
MR. SUPINSKI - Basically, yes.
CALLER - I smell a rat, do you?
MR. SUPINSKI - I am sorry, I can't answer that, I work here.
CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been independently audited?
MR. SUPINSKI - We are audited.
CALLER - Why is there a current House Resolution 1486 calling for a complete audit of the Federal Reserve by the GAO and why is the Federal Reserve resisting?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know.
CALLER - Does the Federal Reserve regulate the value of Federal Reserve Notes and interest rates?
CALLER - Explain how the Federal Reserve System can be Constitutional if, only the Congress of the US, which comprises of the Senate and the House of representatives has the power to coin and issue our money supply and regulate the value thereof? [Article 1 Section 1 and Section 8] Nowhere, in the Constitution does it give Congress the power or authority to transfer any powers granted under the Constitution to a private corporation or, does it?
MR. SUPINSKI - I am not an expert on constitutional law. I can refer you to our legal department.
CALLER - I can tell you I have read the Constitution. It does NOT provide that any power granted can be transferred to a private corporation. Doesn't it specifically state, all other powers not granted are reserved to the States and to the citizens? Does that mean to a private corporation?
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't think so, but we were created by Congress.
CALLER - Would you agree it is our country and it should be our money as provided by our Constitution?
MR. SUPINSKI - I understand what you are saying.
CALLER - Why should we borrow our own money from a private consortium of bankers? Isn't this why we had a revolution, created a separate sovereign nation and a Bill of Rights?
MR. SUPINSKI - (Declined to answer).
CALLER - Has the Federal Reserve ever been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court?
MR. SUPINSKI - I believe there has been court cases on the matter.
CALLER - Have there been Supreme Court Cases?
MR. SUPINSKI - I think so, but I am not sure.
CALLER - Didn't the Supreme Court declare unanimously in A.L.A. Schechter Poultry Corp. vs. US and Carter vs. Carter Coal Co. the corporative-state arrangement an unconstitutional delegation of legislative power? ["The power conferred is the power to regulate. This is legislative delegation in its most obnoxious form; for it is not even delegation to an official or an official body, presumptively disinterested, but to private persons." Carter vs. Carter Coal Co...]
MR. SUPINSKI - I don't know, I can refer you to our legal department.
CALLER - Isn't the current money system a house of cards that must fall because, the debt can mathematically never be paid-off?
MR. SUPINSKI - It appears that way. I can tell you have been looking into this matter and are very knowledgeable. However, we do have a solution.
CALLER - What is the solution?
MR. SUPINSKI - The Debit Card.
CALLER - Do you mean under the EFT Act (Electronic Funds Transfer)? Isn't that very frightening, when one considers the capabilities of computers? It would provide the government and all it's agencies, including the Federal Reserve such information as: You went to the gas station @ 2:30 and bought $10.00 of unleaded gas @ $1.41 per gallon and then you went to the grocery store @ 2:58 and bought bread, lunch meat and milk for $12.32 and then went to the drug store @ 3:30 and bought cold medicine for $5.62. In other words, they would know where we go, when we went, how much we paid, how much the merchant paid and how much profit he made. Under the EFT they will literally know everything about us. Isn't that kind of scary?
MR. SUPINSKI - Yes, it makes you wonder.
CALLER - I smell a GIANT RAT that has overthrown my constitution. Aren't we paying tribute in the form of income taxes to a consortium of private bankers?
MR. SUPINSKI - I can't call it tribute, it is interest.
CALLER - Haven't all elected officials taken an oath of office to preserve and defend the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic? Isn't the Federal Reserve a domestic enemy?
MR. SUPINSKI - I can't say that.
CALLER - Our elected officials and members of the Federal Reserve are guilty of aiding and abetting the overthrowing of my Constitution and that is treason. Isn't the punishment of treason death?
MR. SUPINSKI - I believe so.
CALLER - Thank you for your time and information and if I may say so, I think you should take the necessary steps to protect you and your family and withdraw your money from the banks before the collapse, I am.
MR. SUPINSKI - It doesn't look good.
CALLER - May God have mercy on the souls who are behind this unconstitutional and criminal act called the Federal Reserve. When the ALMIGHTY MASS awakens to this giant hoax, they will not take it with a grain of salt. It has been a pleasure talking to you and I thank you for your time. I hope you will take my advice before it does collapse.
MR. SUPINSKI - Unfortunately, it does not look good.
CALLER - Have a good day and thanks for your time.
MR. SUPINSKI - Thanks for calling.

If you want some more details, I got that from here:
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
lol, an "account" of the conversation. And the caller was predicting a complete collapse of the banking system...and it was before the debit card was even introduced. Seems like he was wrong so far.

Of course the fact that the main page of that website also claims that government officials saw a "UFO fleet" fly over Mexico lowers the credibility of the page. They also said there were some flying humanoid thing flying over the USA.
Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
well, to be fair one has nothing to do with the other, it's a relatively free form site for talk of "consipracy" so obviously there is goign to be incredible mixed with the credable, just like EVERY OTHER media sire or outlet.

THe fact is you just side stepped all of the actual FACTS in the article to comment on peripherals. Like when you get into an argument and make fun of someone to avoid adressing the point.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I hope your structure of beliefs are not all based on internet information, especially from conspiracy theorist conversations that probably didn't even actually occur.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Banks are accountable to stockholders. They are not allowed to cancel debts except under certain circumstances. And the banks have NOTHING to do with America's national debt. Do you think we owe it to BANKS? Some small part - but most of it is owed to foreigners who have invested in American debt instruments. The two issues - the national debt and debts owed to banks by African countries - are not related.

If you cancel a debt owed by a country, you have essentially erased money. If, for instance, the U.S. repudiated its OWN national debt, thereby canceling it, it would collapse the world's monetary system.

Asking for debt forgiveness for governments that borrowed the money, then wasted it, turns the money into a grant. It's bankruptcy - and bankruptcy has consequences.
Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
I understand your point Mr. Card but the money that you would be "erasing" is the same money that was "created out of thin air" and does not actually exist, so it works both ways.

It's a tough one though.

Back to my main point: People should not be DECEIVED into thinking that when we in the west "Drop" the debt it magically gets paid off by pixies, when that is not the case.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
That phone conversation reminds me of the same type of reasoning that is used to support the belief that the holocaust never happened, that man never made it to the moon, and that the earth is still flat. They all use facts to support a false conclusion based on incorrect inferences. And then those false conclusions become the basis of further incorrect assumptions.

For example:

by the power to collect taxes is what backs Federal Reserve Notes?
That isn't exactly a secret, and no one is being deceived about this.

Are the member banks private corporations?
Yes, but the Federal Reserve Banks are not operated for profit. Yet, the caller suggests treason and possibly a revolution and the punishment of death.

Isn't the current money system a house of cards that must fall because, the debt can mathematically never be paid-off?
Another inaccurate assumption that the caller uses to support his conclusions. For example, consider all the paper money that's taken out of circulation each year. The money still remains in the form of electronic funds even though the Federal Reserve Note no longer exists. Just because there isn't a dollar bill representing every dollar of the nation debt, it doesn't mean it's impossible for the debt to be paid off.

Under the EFT they will literally know everything about us.
Kind of an extreme conclusion considering there have always been ways to monitor someone's activity.

$7 of additional Federal Reserve Notes were never put in circulation. But, for lack of better words were "created out of thin air " in the form of credits and the two cents per denomination were not paid either.
True, but having a gold standard would greatly restrict the US economy. There isn't enough gold, or other resource, that could back all the transactions that take place using US dollars.

I highly doubt this phone conversation actually took place, because the points seem too contrived. So I hope no one gets too worked up about the Fed based on this phone conversation.
Posted by Antony (Member # 7947) on :
whether the Fed is run for profit or not is irrelevant, it should be owned by the US government.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I think the type of website that the article was posted at is very relevant. The only evidence that this conversation took place was the text posted on this website...with no other proof. The fact that the same site also posts info about the cover up of alien fly overs damages their credibility. That and the fact that "SUPINSKI" says things that a government official would never say.

You keep saying that this money was created out of thin air...and come to the conclusion that it can be erased because it doesn't really exist to start with. This is simply not true. While our money is not directly related to things like gold, or even currency is tied to trust. It is tied to the trust that the debts can and will be paid. When you cancel debts, that trust (or expectation) is taken away.

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