quote:The irony of our culture-shaped "beauty search" (and it goes both ways) is that by the time we're sixty, we're all old and decrepit-looking <grin> and most of us have put on weight, so why oh why did it matter so much when we were younger what people LOOKED like?
We agree, which is why we wish to reply that we would like you to write a book with a heroine who is not beautiful looking. (We would prefer short and a bit overweight, for obvious reasons, but tall and a bit overweight or average height and a bit overweight would be good too.)
Is anyone else with us?
-- the residents of chez Maxwell
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, after all, you have to live with people for twenty years at least before they get old. And besides, you can always divorce 'em at fifty and get yourself a fresh-faced trophy wife.
Posted by AC (Member # 7909) on :
if you have enough money
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Read Paladin of Souls. The hero of that story is a dumpy middle-aged woman.
edit: By dumpy I mean that if she were an actress on TV, she would play a dumpy character.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, actually you should read all of Bujold's books, just on general principle. But I don't think Ista is particularly dumpy; after all, she hasn't been eating well for quite a few years now. And in her youth she was considered beautiful enough to marry a king; it's not as though her family connections were that great.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Well, there is the woman in the Atlantis story.... She is described as ugly.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Atlantis story? Bit lost here, is it a Bujold story I haven't read? Where can I get it? Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I am trying to remember... I think it is an OSC short story, and I can't remember the actual name of it. It is a story that binds together the legends of Atlantis/Noah/Gilgamesh. If you are familiar with the novel "Pastwatch" by OSC, it touches on the story. The short story expounds on it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But I don't think Ista is particularly dumpy; after all, she hasn't been eating well for quite a few years now.
skinny != beautiful
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
But dumpy!=skinny. Dumpy=at least slightly overweight. His point was only that if she was half-starved, by definition, she was *not* dumpy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If dumpy implies slightly overweight, then I used the wrong word.
<-- can't think right word
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Frumpy?
Edit: I was looking up adjectives in the dictionary out of curiosity. I didn't know that the word "drab" had strong "prostitute" connotations! I just thought it meant "colorless", "gloomy", or "greyish".
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Atlantis is OSC's short story of the flood. The new pastwatch book is based on it. You can read it in its entirety here at hatrack.
[ August 09, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
A colourful anecdote to ilustrate a point.
I have a very beautiful best friend.
When she is under 52 Kg modelling agencies stop her in the street to work for them.
When she is over 60 kg men stop her on the streets, busses, trains, plans, bars etc to ask her out on dates.
Moral of the story ... there is about 8 kg difference between when the media says you are beautiful and when men find you beautiful.
So be warned! Do not confuse the too!
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
El JT de Spang ... I would love to read that tale.
Can you please post a link?
Thanks
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
You can probably find it by clicking OSC Library up at the top, and then looking through the short story drop down list.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Atlantis Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Moral of the story ... there is about 8 kg difference between when the media says you are beautiful and when men find you beautiful.
This is because the camera adds 8 kg. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
That is brilliant, Tom. I wonder how many cameras I have on me.
<goes off to search for hidden cameras>
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
I was reading this column yesterday and thought about posting on this topic.
The column is a review of Dove's "Real Women" campaign, which features models from size 4 through 12. This comment made my blood boil:
quote:Sadly, this is not a winning play for the long haul. If Dove keeps running ads like this, women will get bored with the feel-good, politically correct message. Eventually (though perhaps only subconsciously), they'll come to think of Dove as the brand for fat girls. Talk about "real beauty" all you want—once you're the brand for fat girls, you're toast.
Women sized 4 to 12 are considered FAT?!?! What's the deal with that? I've always considered myself fat, even when I was in junior high school - looking back of course, I wasn't. I'm overweight now, but I'll never be below a size 10 at best. I promise you that if I ever get down to a size 10, I won't have an extra ounce of fat on me. With my bone structure, a size 12 is certainly the best I could ever hope for, but apparently that's still FAT to the rest of the world.
It doesn't bother me for myself that much, but I have 5 daughters who have my build. My two oldest daughters are just shy of 6 feet tall. They're not FAT, they're BIG and they're BEAUTIFUL, and even campaigns aimed at them, supposedly trying to make themselves feel better about themselves, still tells them that they're fat...
It's just so wrong. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Curious, I've read that story in the less-detailed Pastwatch version, but I never thought of it as the Atlantis story; to me it was the Noah story.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yeah, it was mostly Noah. But it was suppose to also be the origins of the Atlantis and Gilgamesh stories.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote: Dove as the brand for fat girls
I'd NEVER wash with "fat girl soap". It's skinny girl soap for me, or nothing. Now which are the skinny brands of soap?
Ivory? Nah, reminds me of elephants, not the most svelte of the animals.
Dial? Nah, reminds me of the dial on my bathroom scale.
Lever? Oh please! That's got to be for the seriously obese.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Yes, bev, I noticed on re-reading it. I'm just commenting on how different the first impressions, or the classification-words, of the two readers were. Noah and Atlantis are mentioned, I think, about equally often in the story; there is no reason to prefer the one over the other, as far as I can see. Yet I, the rabid atheist, filed it under 'Noah', a Bible story; while you, a believer, put it under 'Atlantis', which comes to us from the pagan Greeks. You would think the opposite more natural.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Huh. Go figure. Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
Maybe not KoM.
The way I figure it, is you can see the differences of something easier than the similarities. So you, being the rabid atheist, see the Bible influence. While the Christian sees Pagan influence. It makes sense in my head- I can't just put it in words.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I realize that this conversation has moved away from the issue raised at the top ... but i have lots of women in my books who aren't particularly beautiful. and those who ARE beautiful aren't nothing BUT beautiful, and often find their beauty to be a burden. I have sympathetic female characters whom men don't always find attractive, or who wish they were more attractive than they are, etc.
Maybe it's confusing because I don't describe my characters much, and so you supply the assumption that the character is beautiful when i don't say so. (Though of course there are characters where i do say so.)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Tante makes me laugh. Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
Hey Yozhik,
I haven't been around for a long time, but I just popped in and your post interested me.
As Mr. Card noted many of his characters are not "beautiful" women in our present culture's sense of the word. In fact, my (unattractive?) aging mind can't really remember any characters that he does describe as beautiful - although he says that he does on some occasion. Oh wait, the woman in Teasure Box - Madeleine - is described as beautiful, but then ... SPOILER ... she's not real, hmmmmm...? Interesting.
But back to other major characters,I never pictured any of these women as "beautiful": Peggy, Novinha, Petra, Virlomi, Tagiri, the realtor lady who is the romantic interest in Homebody.
In fact, Alvin's Peggy is described as plain as a child but she later learns how to be "beautiful" from the inside out. She works to achieve a beauty that is not simply physical attributes, but is the result of how she perceives herself, presents herself to others and more importantly how she treats others as if they were interesting, attractive and important to her. Not in a manipulative way but in a genuine way. And in doing this, Peggy finds that in everyone she can find something (even Calvin) noble, worthy of praise. She makes others feel good and beautiful about themselves - thus they are attracted to her presence. Her inner beauty of spirit transforms her physical looks.
I think that's one of the best role models of beauty that any woman - young or old - can have.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:the realtor lady who is the romantic interest in Homebody
Well, she disappears halfway through the book, to be replaced by the REAL romantic interest, who's a lot younger than she is.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:Her inner beauty of spirit transforms her physical looks.
That's one of those lovely fantasies that happens in books, but not in real life.
quote:I think that's one of the best role models of beauty that any woman - young or old - can have.
Why do women in books HAVE to transform their physical looks at all? Why does the plain child in every book have to become gorgeous as she enters womanhood? And what does that say about plain little girls in real life who grew up to be plain adults?
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Sorry about the tone. I feel alone and sad lately.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
But that's the thing Yozhik! I don't know that Peggy really changed physically but mentally. She changed they way she felt about herself and others.
I think it's a natural instinct in all humans - male or female - to want to be attractive to the opposite sex. One of those built in, keep the species going things much like self preservation. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive to others. It is when it is taken to the extreme that it becomes destructive and outright dangerous (ie, anorexia, bulimia, extreme makeovers).
Many "beautiful people" are downright unattractive because of their attitude, personality, and way they treat others. And vice versa. I never imagined that Peggy changed so much as that she maximized her looks so that she felt pretty, attractive, and desirable to other people.
We choose our own transformations. What we are willing to do to become what we want to be. A plain adult may exercise, change their hairstyle or makeup. A disfigured adult may opt for plastic surgery. An attractive neurotic who always picks abusive partners may go to a psychologist. Etc.
I should have said "that's THE best role model of beauty or attractiveness that any PERSON can have."
I'm sorry you are feeling sad and lonely lately. Unfortunately it's often when we are sad, lonely and neediest that we put off other people - thus making us even more sad, lonely and needy. Mostly I think it's because they really don't know what to do for us and unconsciously fear that our sadness will "infect" them. It's not us they are avoiding, but the fear that our sadness will bring out their own sadness.
Enough though!I hope that today things will be brighter for you!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
(We would prefer short and a bit overweight, for obvious reasons, but tall and a bit overweight or average height and a bit overweight would be good too.) ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)