This is topic OSC's review of Harry Potter! in forum Discussions About Orson Scott Card at Hatrack River Forum.

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Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
. . . has just been published in the Rhino Times! Unfortunately, you have to be in the Greensboro area and pick up a copy of the print edition to read it. I'm here visiting my brother who lives here, so I picked up my copy yesterday. Nya, nya, nya-nya, nya. [Taunt]
Posted by Aeroth (Member # 6269) on :
Just when you thought the hype from wanting to read the book itself had died down...
Posted by LordKaosnix (Member # 8458) on :
Is he pro [Big Grin] or con [Mad] ?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Bah, I'm going to investigate finding it online
Posted by soccersprout91 (Member # 8207) on :
could someone be nice and scan it? please? [Smile]
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Double please?
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
It will be online here on Hatrack on Monday [Smile]
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
That's good news. [Smile]
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Posted by accio (Member # 3040) on :
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
Oh come on.....
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
ah never mind I guess I'll wait rather than getting a summary and ruining it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's there now.
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
The following post will contain HBP spoilers. Ye are forewarned.

I agree as far as the snogging was concerned.


But Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.





I'd love to believe Dumbledore is really alive. I really really would. But Jo has said time and time again that even in the wizarding world, once you're dead, you're dead. Dumbledore wouldn't have created a horcrux. It's like what Magonagal said way back in book I -- he's just too noble. When it comes right down to it, he's not afraid of dying. It's the next great adventure. [Frown]

I wouldn't mind being wrong, though.

edit: I totally agree about Snape, too.

[ August 21, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
[Roll Eyes]
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
Originally posted by Jonathan Howard:
[Roll Eyes]
[Roll Eyes] [No No]
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Dang it! For some reason I was under the impression that her name was an Mc sound that wasn't really spelled with an Mc.

From book 1:

I really do know how to spell, honest...

edit: It makes me feel better to point out that OSC called Filch "Finch". So, um, there. [Razz]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Originally posted by MidnightBlue:
Originally posted by Jonathan Howard:
[Roll Eyes]
[Roll Eyes] [No No]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I really do know how to spell, honest...
Sew doo eye, onesst!
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :

Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
[Big Grin] !
Posted by Starr R (Member # 8361) on :
It's the next great adventure.
I think so too!

As for the Dumbledore debate: I'll decide after I reread the book. It's fun to read everyone's opinions, either way.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
[Big Grin] ya ya ya.

Mr Card if you read this I completely and 95% agree with you.

I only differ on Dumbledore being dead/notdead.

I think Dumbledore was talking to Snape pleadingly not to act but to Beg Snape to actually kill him.

Afterall imho if Dumbledore is dead then Harry will not spiritually/physically/mentally rely on Dumbledore's guidence any further.

Everything else though I 100% agree with not only have I though of things similar (I have a knack to predicting the ends of books/films though Rowling eludes me most often) possibilities myself but because these "geusses" feel right.

So all in all good job. A toast to writers!

Posted by DavidGill (Member # 8166) on :
I just opened my copy of HBP. All the words are gone.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
But personally, I hope she has a huge battle inside Harry and that Harry finds a way to subdue Voldemort’s soul-fragment within him through love, which has been established as the most powerful magic of all.

Isn’t that really why we’ve been shown so much of Tom Riddle’s past in this volume? So that when push comes to shove, Harry can overcome his enemy with compassion for his tortured past?

Maybe it's because I read "Magic Street" and "Half-Blood Prince" back to back, but these two paragraphs reminded me of Mack and is relationship to Titania and Oberon.
Posted by Rackham (Member # 8127) on :
"While the ending definitely ends the book, it does not do so in any kind of satisfying way."

hahaha... like uve never done that. [ROFL]
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
oh, Burn! [Razz]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yup -- that's why I haven't even cracked open the latest Women of Genesis book -- I hate reading one third of a novel and then waiting years for the rest of it.

This might be why I'm not a big fan of Xenocide/CotM -- when I read X, CotM wasn't written yet. I was all kinds of annoyed. "This isn't a novel! This is only half of one![/rant]."

By the time I got to read CotM after my mission, I had years of being annoyed at X. It's hard to overcome that.
Posted by Rackham (Member # 8127) on :
wasnt meant to be a burn, lol. just thought it was funny of him to say that.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I agree about Dumbledore, sm. I love the evidence OSC cites for his theory, and it gave me the loveliest moment of hope. There is a small part of me that hopes dearly that it is true. The allusion to Christ would be too much for the book burners to ignore and I suspect it would drive them wild.

But I think that it would be a cheat. Harry has been building to this confrontation for 6 years. He may have patronus help...or something similar...but I think he's going to make this final confrontation alone.

Also, while I know it's a popular thought that Harry is himself a horcrux, I find that so hard to believe. Remember, Rowling wrote the ending a long time ago. She began with the end in mind, yet she's only introducing horcruxis now? If it's that critical to the ultimate resolution of the conflict, I can't see her waiting until book 6 to introduce it. But to play devil's advocate on myself, I could see her not wanting to introduce it til the last minute, since any savvy reader would immediately see it as the source of Voldemort's unnatural death-defense. Still, while I honestly don't think Harry is going to live, I don't think he'll be killing himself because he's a horcrux.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Horcuxes were all kinds of alluded to in previous books, they just weren't named or discussed (it seemed really taboo in book VI). Book II came very close, seeing as how the diary ended up being a horcrux. And there are also a whole lot of references to Harry's scar, and how it gives him a special connection to Voldemort.

I don't think we really know enough about horcruxes to know for sure if Voldemort could unintentionally create one by trying to kill Harry. I don't completely discount OSC's theory, though.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
I also disagree with him about Dumbledore not really being dead. I mean, he was hit with a deadly curse, thrown off the top of the Astronomy Tower, set on fire, and turned into stone. The only way Rowling could have made it more final would be to have Grawp lumber over during the funeral and sit on him.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
lol, but ya anyways the profecy thing.

Does anybody remember the exact quote for it?

"neither can live while the other is alive" is think is the key but I don't know if i have it word for word.

But neithertheless does it mean only one can live or can both die?
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
I know absolutely nothing about Harry Potter beyond the first 3 books, and yet I am convinced Snape is not evil. I am glad OSC can back me up on that. [Smile]
Posted by Elise (Member # 7898) on :
Here it comes:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the dark lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

That's it.

No, I do not know this by heart. I looked it up. If Rowling is asked about the profecy she only says that she and Professor Trelawney have phrased the profecy very carefully.

Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't think he is still alive, but, I do think he has put some sort of protection on the school which could be why he was buried in the graveyard, the first headmaster to do that.
But, that is my theory.
Posted by SpEeDMaSTeR (Member # 7568) on :
First of all... it's spelt prophecy. There's no 'f'.




As for myself, I found the book to be very empty of any kinds of action. As OSC said, the majority of the book was about certain relationships between male and female characters. Dumbledore was killed very uncerimoniously, and he has said hundreds of times that he has a reason to trust Snape. Snape clearly has some secret or another connecting him to Dumbledore, perhaps a blood relationship, or something similar. However, the fact that Dumbledore was comfortable even when staring down Draco is a huge hole in this argument, because I highly doubt that if there is a conspiracy that Draco himself is in it too. In any case... we wait, and watch the movies as they speed through them.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
yeah, because the movies have all been waaaaaay better than the books... [Roll Eyes]
Posted by mathwiz15 (Member # 8523) on :
the books are way better!!
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
Tell me that comment wasn't the only reason you joined Hatrack! [Eek!]

[Wink] Just kidding! Welcome to the rack! [Wave]
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Anyone else get the feeling that HBP was written with the movie that will be made from it in mind? All the "snogging" and the banter (the clever Ron-Hermione one-liners being a major part of the last 3, and Romance=duh).
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
mathwiz, I agree. Seriously, I do.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Was anyone else disappointed by the resolution of the mystery to who the Half Blood Prince was? I felt it a bit of a cheat that she didn't introduce where the "Prince" came from until the mystery was revealed. And why did Snape call himself a half blood, when as a slyterin, it would hardly be a compliment? Self loathing?

I wonder if book 7 is going to give book 6 a lot more meaning than we take it for now.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
JKR gives a LOT of information in her spoilerific interview with the mugglenet and leakycauldron editors. Or, at least enough info to fuel 3 full years worth of conspiracy theories. A few points:

SPOILER WARNING (as if it hasn't been said enough on this thread)

-She mentions we aought to be curious about Dumbledore's family

-she really, really fudges on the question whether Snape is evil

-she doesn't say what Dumbledore would see in the mirror of Erised

-"memories" in the Penseive represent actual reality, uncolored by the owner's biases.

-she has previously indicated that Harry's two-way mirror with Sirius is important to remember.

-she also indicated that questions about Harry's parent's death and exactly what happened in Godric's Hollow are important

-Dumbledore is probably dead (she didn't out and out confirm it, but indicated it) but I still think there was more to his trusting Snape than we think.

That's all I can remember from the interview right now.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :

Remember, we know almost nothing about Snape's motivations, 'psychology', and little of his family life, except that it was unpleasant.
Posted by SpEeDMaSTeR (Member # 7568) on :
We should be curious about Dumbledore's family, ie: father of Snape perhaps?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Rakeesh, yeah, I know. That's why I felt like it was a bit of a cheat. I figured that the Half Blood Prince had to be a central character...but to have the vital resolving clue be part of the resolution itself was in violation to the rules of good mystery writing. Since I know that Rowling is a good writer, I refuse to believe she'd violate that rule without a really darned good reason. I figure that the clue to that reason is in the name itself, and since we know almost nothing about Snape, the Half Blood Prince must mean more than just a self deprecating title he'd given himself.

Anyway, it's just speculation.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I also disagree with him about Dumbledore not really being dead. I mean, he was hit with a deadly curse, thrown off the top of the Astronomy Tower, set on fire, and turned into stone. The only way Rowling could have made it more final would be to have Grawp lumber over during the funeral and sit on him.

Oh, I agree. Dumbledore's dead. Our Hero is on his own, and he will vanquish on his own.

To have Dumbledore come back at the last second and defeat Voldemort in front of and instead of Harry would be really crappy storytelling. I'm wondering why Card thinks Rowling is that bad.
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
I disagree with OSC about Dumbledore. Yeah, Snape's probably a good guy, but I believe he really killed Dumbledore. I don't think JKR would pull a trick as cheap as having it all be an act. After all, Harry's parents are really dead. Sirius is really dead. Cedric Griggory is really dead. Why shouldn't Dumbledore stay dead?

Having said that, I bet there will still be some interaction with Dumbledore in HP VII, via his portrait in the headmaster's office and/or Pensieve memories he left behind for Harry.

And I don't believe Harry (or his scar) is a Horcrux. I doubt that one can be created by accident.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
So is it going to be seven books? This is a series IMHO that could have dozens of books in it.
Posted by Sandrino (Member # 8531) on :
Dumbledore could really be dead. But the whole business with his familiar being a phoenix cannot just be a coincidence at this point. I am sure Dumbledore will be back in the next book but Harry must face Voldemort alone. It would hurt Harry's character to need Dumbledore or any other wizard for the final fight.

I also don't think Snape is a bad guy. He is an ass but Dumbledore could not be this wrong about Snape. If Dumbledore was such a bad judge of character, he would have been killed long ago. I don't think that Dumbledore was begging for his life but that he was asking Snape to do what he must do and kill him. Snape had to kill Dumbledore for Draco otherwise he would have died and the Order of the Phoenix would have lost the best mole that they have. Snape has had many chances to go to Voldemort's side he could have tried to kill Dumbledore or Harry many times before.

The portraits in the headmaster's office are no more than simulacra. They don't hold all the knowledge of the person. The portraits are no different than the other magical photos in the books. They don't hold the intellect of the person just their image.

JKR has always said that there will be seven books and only seven books. She insists that there will be no more Harry Potter books. We'll see in a few years when the movies are all done and her publishers offer her more money.
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
Re: Dumbledore's family -- FYI, Dumbledore's brother Aberforth is the bartender at the Hog's Head in Hogsmeade.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
There is a theory that Dumbledore actually died while attempting to destroy the ring horcrux, and that Snape was able to defer his death by way of a potion. In book 1, Snape said to his class that he could show them how to bottle glory, stopper death. This theory builds on the idea that he can "stopper" death, deferring it for a little while. It explains a lot...explains why he'd be willing to then kill Dumbledore, since he knows the man is already dead. And explains some of the phoenix symbolism.

Interesting theory, but I don't know if I buy it.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Jo has gone as far to say that she would be willing to do sort of background books about the characters or world, but who knows how that'll work out.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
jeniwren - that is a very interesting theory that I had not heard up to this point!

I agree with Mr. Card in that the scene in which Dumbledore pleads with Snape does not make any sense if you read it with the idea that Dumbledore is pleading for his life. It would be TOTALLY out of character for Dumbledore to beg for his life.

The scene reads:

"But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.
The sound frightend Harry beyond anything he had experienced al evening. For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.
Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewofl seemed cowed.
Anape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
'Severus ....please...'
Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
'Avada Kedavra!'
A jet of green light shot from the end of Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest. Harry's scream of horror never left him; silent and unmoving, he was forced to watch as Dumbledore was blasted into the air."

Combine this scene with the one on page 405 where Harry asks Hagrid:

"'Hagrid, why is Dumbledore angry with Snape' Harry asked loudly....
....'What's Snape done?'
" I dunno Hary, I shouldn'ta heard it at all! I - well, I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin; an' I overheard'em talkng -- well, arguin'. Didn't like ter draw attention to meself, so I sorta skulked an'tried not ter listen, but it was a -- well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out.'
'Well?' Harry urged him, as Hagraid shuffled his enormous feel uneasily.
'Well - I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore --'
'Do what?'
'I dunno Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all -- anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him...'"

And it makes it seem that regardless of whether Dumbledore is dead or not - Snape is probably did not betray Dumbledore.

Snape's father was a muggle (not Dumbledore) so he's a Half-Blood and his mother's maiden name Eileen Prince. Snape is a half-blood prince and at the time he was in school I don't think the pureblood movement was at its height. Snape is just like Voldemort - muggle dad, witch mother.

I think Harry must face Voldemort alone. It's archetypal.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
I feel so torn over Dumbledore being *actually dead*. On the one hand, I WANT HIM BACK!!! But on the other hand, if he comes back I'll feel cheated, because it doesn't make sense. As folks already pointed out a) typical hero must do it on his own in the end, and b) he's buried in a really thorough way.

There is the Phoenix thing... As I was reading along, totally in shock, I read the next chapter's title- you know, the one that is "the Phoenix's Lament" or something like that. I felt hope swell, but again, he couldn't come back. Sirius is really dead, after all. Particularly in the later books, Rowling doesn't fool around with making everything Happy Schoolkid-Friendly Fantasy Land. It wouldn't be in character for her to be so hokey and cliched and patronizing as to bring Dumbledore back somehow. And if it didn't happen with the Phoenix in book 6, it *couldn't* happen in book 7 unless she wants to lose all her reputation as a serious fantasy writer. The whole coming-back-in-final-book thing can't happen. Too forced of a happy ending. I mean, Gandalf came back in the middle book... and he'd only "fallen into shadow." Imagine if, oh, say, Theoden came back just in time to lead Rohan to victory. Could never happen. At some point you have to admit that magic only works so far against the basic forces of nature. Willow couldn't raise Tara even as an completely black-arts-saturated morals-to-the-winds witch.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
I do not think that JK Rowling would "lose all her reputation as a serious fantasy writer" if Dumbledore is not really dead. There are too many clues and possibilities that would make his return as plausible as Gandalf's return in the Tolkein books.

Sirius fell through the curtain of the arch in the death chamber. That is the wizarding world's execution chamber for enforcing the death penalty on their kind. Thus is would be much more implausible if Sirius returned than Dumbledore.

That said - I believe Harry will face Voldemort on his own and that the "feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort" emotion that Dumbledore questions him about after one of their pensieve journeys will be what enables him to destroy Voldemort. Dumbledore repeatedly tells Harry that the power which Harry possesses "of which the Dark Lord knows not" is simply his ability to love.

Perhaps Harry will kill Lord Voldemort and we'll find Harry and Tom Riddle left standing after the dust settles.

I don't think Harry's scar is a horcrux and that's why Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself. Voldemort decides to be rid of Harry in the Ministry battle at the end of Order of the Phoenix and tries repeatedly to kill Harry only to be thwarted by Dumbledore. Voldemort doesn't want anyone else to kill Harry because then that person has accomplished a task that the all powerful Lord Voldemort has botched about half a dozen times.

How good could that be for his image? [Wink]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Stray, that was a fantastic paragraph. [Big Grin]

And yes, I agree. Dumbledore is Deadydore. Gone and gone.
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
um.. is it just me, or is anyone else wondering what Harry's parents did before they died? I've read the series several times and I fail to see where JKR has mentioned them except in reference to their death. Were they Aurors? Did they work for the Ministry at all? We know they defied Voldemort 3 times, but we don't know what those defiances were.

man, I can't wait for book 7. This is torture.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
We have not yet ever been told what Lily and James did from the time they left Hogwarts to their death except marry, have Harry, join the original Order of the Phonenix, defy Voldemort 3 times, go into hiding with Harry and die at Voldemort's hands.

I'd be surprised if they were Aurors since much is made of the Longbottoms having been top notch Aurors until Bellatrix and crew tortured them into insanity.

I can't see the Potters working for the Ministry since they are "Dumbledore's man through and through" and Dumbledore didn't ever get along with the Ministry.

I guess we'll find out in Book 7 when Harry goes home to Godric Hollow?
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
I'm getting extremely worried that book seven isn't going to be quite as good as we've been anticipating. The last two books have made me start to think that I've built up the expectations too high. The end of book five when Harry hears the prophecy and is talking to Dumbledore was literally an entire chapter of review of the series. JKR simply stated things that have been implied fact almost since book 1. Not to mention book six, which as has been said before, is mostly just fluff... set-up for book seven. But what if book seven doesn't deliver?? [Angst] [Angst] [Angst]
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
I didn't see book six as mostly just fluff so I'm not worried about book seven. Merely worried that it won't come out soon enough for me - which would be, say, yesterday!
Posted by Paco_The_Insane (Member # 8263) on :
Forgoten by every one else, we do know there will be a new character: R. A. B. They probably are dead and we know they were a death eater, which makes me think it was Regulus Black, Sirius's brother.

I think Dumbledore is dead, but maybe he left clues for Harry through the pensive or some other way. I also think Snape is not evil and Dumbledore forced Snape to kill him. This would keep Snape alive and able to work for Voldemort.

And what was the whole point of Harry and Ginny's relationship if they were just Going to break up at the end. If they don't get back together in the next book, then it was such a waste of room that could have been about horcruxes.
Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
I think that it is quite plausible that Harry's scar is a horicrux. After all, at the end of book five, Voldemort posesses Harry for a short while, and that is while voldemort has a physical body is supposedly unable to posess people. Another thing, also in book five, Harry "becomes part of" Nagina-Voldemort's snake- which is supposedly also a horicrux. Its all quite convoluted.
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
I don't think that Voldemort posessing Harry in book 5 was so much "posessing" as it was extremely strong occlumency/imperious curse. But i could be wrong about that.

But I do know for sure that Harry becoming part of Nagini and also feeling the same emotions that Voldemort felt WAS occlumency... the accidental sort that came from the curse scar.

Don't forget that Dumbledore himself was an extremely gifted occlumens, as JKR hints in all six books with small comments about how it seems that Dumbledore knows when Harry, Ron & Hermione are sneaking around, can see them under the invisibility cloak, knows when they're hiding something, etc.

Also, in regards to the person who said that the paintings in the Headmasters office do not have the full wisdom of the actual person, I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Phineas Nigellus often gives his annoyed opinions about Harry, and even Sirius, and Harry often walks into Dumbledore's office just as Dumbledore is discussing a serious problem with the previous headmasters in the paintings. One of the most hilarious visuals that JKR gives is the Portraits in the Headmaster's office pretending to be asleep all the time, but really listening to everything thats going on so they can give their opinions to Dumbledore after Harry has left the office.

ALSO on that note, Dumbledore said (in book 4 or 5?) that the more prestigious headmasters were lucky enough to have their portraits in more than one place. So the question becomes (since with McGonagall as new headmasterwill probably not let Harry just "hang out" in her office)
Where is Dumbledore's other portrait??
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I don't see how Snape could be good AND Dumbledore could come back. This is because of the Unbreakable Vow. If Dumbledore survived and Snape knew he would, then that means he would have broken his vow.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
If Harry is a horcrux, I cannot believe that Dumbledore even guesses at it, which seems impossible given his considerable thought toward the subject. If Harry were a horcrux, and Dumbledore knew, it would be the height of callousness to continue to train him to counter the man whose soul fragment he carries. Plus I would think that the influence of evil and selfishness from the soul fragment would slowly turn Harry evil.

The more I think about it, the less I can believe that Harry is a horcrux.
Posted by EndertheJedi (Member # 7889) on :
I really dnot think that Harry could be a Horcrux primarily because Voldemort would have ahd to amke him one unintentionally wihich I dont think is possble. since A horcrux is something a dark wizard makes to contain a soul fragment than it would have to be a complicatd spell with incantationsand complex wand movements among other thing. i thik unintentionally making a horcrux would be imposslble. also if voldemort did it on purpoese than he wouldnt be trying to kill harry. but then again you have to remember that thescar woud be the horcrux not harry himself. in this case it could be a separate thing that just happens to be attached to harry.
I really cant decidew if i mthink Dumbledore is dead or not. It is obvios that the astronomy tower scene was an act but then Dumble dore pwas pretty thorroughly destroyed.
one thing i thought of is with there being nonverbal spells would it be posssble to say a spell at the same as casting ano verbla spell to mask the real spell being cast. i dont think dumbledore should come back to hhelp harry as its his destiny to defeat voldemort himself.
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
AHA! Someone with worse spelling then I! Ahahahahaha!

(no offence Ender [Razz] , i get heat about my spelling sometimes [Smile] )
Posted by EndertheJedi (Member # 7889) on :
none taken. I really have good spelling in real life. Im just too lazy to edit my typing.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Theory time.

Could Dumbledore have killed the old pheonix, and turned the new baby into a Horcrux? And wouldn't that make him immortal?
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
First of all, on page 813 of the Order of the Phoenix, Voldemort tries to kill Harry. Would he kill his own horcrux?

Quote: "'I have nothing more to say to you, Potter,' he (Voldemort)said quietly. 'You have irked me too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA'.

Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist. His mind was blank, his wand pointing uselessly at the floor."

Here Dumbledore arrives to save Harry using the golden wizard statue to deflect the spell.

Dumbledore calmly talks and fights with Voldemort - each time referring to him as "Tom". Then they have the following exchange:

"'There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore,' snarled Voldemort.

'You ae quite wrong,' said Dumbledore ...'Indeed, your failure to undertsand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness ---'"

Then more fighting and suddenly Voldemort disappears and "And then Harry's scar burst open. He knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past endurance ---"

Voldemort possesses Harry and tries to get Dumbledore to "Kill me now, Dumbledore.... If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy ...."

Harry thinks to himself that he wants Dumbledore to kill him to end the current physical pain AND to end the emotional pain because then he would be with Sirius again.

And that love of Sirius is what forces Voldemort out of Harry's body.

Then on page 826 Dumbledore explains that 15 years ago when he saw the scar upon Harry's forehead that the scar "might be the sign of a connection between you and Voldemort." And later he explains on page 828 that he had suspected that Voldemort would use the connection once he discovered it to try to possess Harry.

"'Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. He hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would sacrifice you in the hope of killing him.'"

Later on page 843 Dumbledore tells Harry that love is a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature ... and it is the poer that Harry posseses in such quantities and Voldemort has not at all. That is what brought him to the Ministry to save Sirius and forced Voldemort out of Harry's body because he coul dnot bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests.

So how then could Harry be the horcrux?
Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
We know that voldemort has more than one horcrux. If I knew that there was only one person in the world capable of killing me, but to kill him I would have to die, I might be a bit nervous. But if I had a few extra lives handy, I'd kill them in a heart beat.

So he is sacrificing one horcrux, in order to ensure the survival of the others, and more importantly; himself.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
If Harry (or scar) is a Horcrux...does Voldemort actually know that Harry's an accidental Horcrux?
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
There is no indication in the books so far that anyone can make a horcrux accidentally. If use of the killing spells could result in the creation of accidental horcruxes then presumably Voldemort would have created lots more horcruxes as would numerous Death Eaters. i.e., Voldemort didn't create horcruxes in killing his father and grandparents(that would be three right there)

I believe the implication is that a specific spell must be performed after the killing to create the horcrux. Dumbledore suggests that the snake Nagini was Voldemort's first use of a living creature for a Horcrux and that occured well after Voldemort's attack on baby Harry.

R.A.B. is surely Regulus Alphard Black. Alphard was Sirius's uncle who died when Sirius was 17 and left him a decent bit of gold enabling him to get his own place. (p.111 OoftheP) And Alphard's name has subsequently been wiped off The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black "Toujours Pur" tapestry seen in Grimmauld Place. Sirius tells Harry that Regulus got uncomfortable about some of the stuff he was asked to do as a death eater and tried to "resign" from Voldemort's service. But of course they killed him b/c you don't resign a death eater job.

Which would be why the writer of the note signed R.A.B. states that he will surely be dead by the time the reader (he's presuming Voldemort) reads his note stating that's he's taken the locket horcrux and intends to destroy it. Whether he succeeds or whether he's killed first and whether the heavy locket that no one could open found during the cleaning of Grimmaul Place in Order of the Phoenix is the horcrux locket, I guess we'll find out in book 7.
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
Whoa Kege. excellent deduction.
Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
Wow, I'd have to agree with Lucy.

However, I don't believe that you can accidentally create a horcrux just by killing someone. I think its the fact that Voldemort tried to kill Harry and failed. In the process, Voldemort was nearly killed due to the fact that the soul fragment he was currently inhabiting transferred to Harry's scar, I'm not sure if I think that, but it is plausible.

Voldemort probably stopped making horcruxes after he got to number seven. Remember in the memory he asked about using seven because its the most magical number.

One other preponderance of my own, A horcrux is an object that contains a fragment of one's soul. We know that dementors can suck the soul right out of a person. I'm wondering if a dementor could destroy a horcrux in the same way. Its not at all likely because, they are on his side. But I wonder if its possible.
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
excellent point about Dementors....and on the plus side for Harry, I don't think Dementors really pick sides, they just like to suck souls, and they're currently on Voldemort's "side" just because he gives them victims. They were on the "side" of the ministry because without Voldemort to provide them with victims, they could hang out at Azkaban and suck the happiness there without getting into trouble.
All Harry has to do is get close enough to a dementor to have it suck the soul from the horcrux (without it sucking his own soul)
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Originally posted by CRash:
If Harry (or scar) is a Horcrux...does Voldemort actually know that Harry's an accidental Horcrux?

I don't think you can split your soul and not know it. I've heard it's VERY painful. On the other hand, if he knows where each bit of his soul is simply because it's his soul, I would think he'd know that one had gotten stolen and was (probably) at Grimmauld place.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Well, after Voldemort failed at killing baby Harry, wasn't his body destroyed? So, unless the magic to create a horcrux is done before the actual killing required for it, Voldemort wouldn't have been able to do it. He was only a weak dark spirit and couldn't do anything but enter the bodies of other living things.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
HPB page 498 Professor Slughorn tells Tom Riddle:
"'By an act of evil -- the supreme act of evil. Killing rips the soul apart.The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use hte damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion --'

'Encase? But how --?'

'There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know' said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. 'Do I look as though I have tried it -- do I look like a killer?'"

So a specific spell has to be used to encase the torn part of the soul in the Horcrux.

Also page 506 Dumbledore tells Harry "'However, if my calculations are correct, Voldemort was still at least on Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' house with the intention of killing you.

'He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.'

'As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might have occured to him to turn her into his last Horcrux. She underlines the Slytherin connection, which enchances Lord Voldemort's mystique; I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything...'"

So Nagini is #6 part of the soul and #7 lives in Voldemort.

On page 507 Harry asks "'Does Voldemort know when a Horcrux is destroyed, sir? Can he feel it?' Harry asked, ignoring the portraits.
'A very interesting question, Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and the crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss .. but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold.'"

So, no he doesn't know where these bits of his soul are anymore.
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
Horcrux Possibilities (rambling)
Okay, a couple of possibilities I see that would allow Harry to be one of Voldemort's seven Horcruxes... I don't know if they're that plausible...

So we know for sure about these 4 Horcruxes: diary, ring, locket (and of course Voldy's original fragment inside himself). We also have speculations on: Hufflepuff's cup, Nagini, Harry, or something of Ravenclaw's for the remaining 3.

Scenario 1: Nagini is not a Horcrux.
I really don't know about this. I mean, Nagini has acted quite non-snakelike before (attack on Mr. Weasley), but does that mean she's a Horcrux?
Page 506: "and it might have occured to him to turn [Nagini] into his last Horcrux."
So Dumbledore believes she is, but doesn't know for certain. Still, I think Dumbledore has pretty good judgement, so right now I think this scenario is unlikely.

Scenario 2: There is no Ravenclaw artifact.
One of the Horcruxes Dumbledore speculated on was a trophy collected by Voldemort of Ravenclaw's. However, there was no evidence to support that Voldemort had ever discovered such an artifact. Therefore, an accidental Harry Horcrux could be number 6, and Nagini could be his final attempt.
Why this scenario is unlikely: If Voldy was trying to make a Horcrux at the time he attacked
Harry, he probably already had a vessel for his soul fragment ready.

I'm still speculating on Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" from Goblet... could that be soul-related, possibly? Anyway, these are just some random thoughts I've been thinking. Don't take them too seriously.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
I'm still speculating on Dumbledore's "gleam of triumph" from Goblet... could that be soul-related, possibly?
Good thinking! I'd forgotten about that little "gleam". It made no sense, plotwise, at the time- the only thing the sharing of blood meant was that Voldemorte could touch Harry without being in terrible pain. This leads to the theory that by taking Harry's blood to regain corporeal form Voldemort made an even stronger bond (or perhaps just became even more similar) with harry... maybe Harry was a horcrux and Dumbledore knew/suspected it, so when Voldemort took such a fundamental part (blood) back into himself, those two parts of his soul rejoined. What exactly that would accomplish for the Good side I'm not sure, but there are certainly advantages that could be invented by JKR that would not be at all outlandish.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
Can you quote the passage from Goblet so I don't have to go pull out that book too? [Smile]
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
If Harry was a horcrux, and Voldy took his blood, thus rejoining that part of his soul, that means harry wouldn't have to kill himself to kill voldy. That's a VERY good thing for the good guys.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
that would be cool, but that doesn't seem to renig the connection between Harry and Voldie--which has always been pointed out as quite odd for a curse scar.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
I'm sure Voldemort would have noticed that he had rejoined part of his soul back to the little soul he has left by using Harry's blood in the potion. But wouldn't you think Voldemort would have had to inject the blood directly into his body rather than it go into the big brew bath?

What other killing curse rebound scars does anyone else have in the HP universe with which to compare Harry's?
Posted by SpEeDMaSTeR (Member # 7568) on :
Originally posted by KEGE:
What other killing curse rebound scars does anyone else have in the HP universe with which to compare Harry's?

That's exactly the point. We have no basis for comparison, and so can only purely speculate as to whether or not Harry's scar or Harry himself are horcruxes.
Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
You know that when the book comes out we're all going to be proven horribly wrong. Gwahahahahaha.
Posted by Paco_The_Insane (Member # 8263) on :
If it has to be done before, then when Dumbledore said Voldemort made Nagini a horcrux couldnt have been right, because the old guy didn't hear a spell. But then again, it could have been nonverbal, whcih i doubt because voldemort was weak at the time and it was a very complex spell.
So, I could see her as the horcrux still, with Bertha Jorkins murder, so we cant really rule it out. Harry's scar probably is a horcrux, and Ravenclaw's trophy is probably in Godric's Hollow. It definetly isnt something of Gryfindor's, as Dumbledore says. This is the list:
1. Voldemort's body
X 2. The Diary
X 3. Slytherin's ring
/ 4. Slytherin's locket
5. Hufflepuff's cup
6. Harry's Scar
7. Nagini
Posted by LucyPevensie (Member # 8537) on :
well i doubt very much that frank the gardner was the murder that created a horcrux in Nagini since she was already obeying Voldemort's command at that point. More likely it was Bertha Jorkins, the one that told them about the tri-wizard tournament, or even someone before her.

Also, in HBP Dumbledore told Harry that the only remaining artifact of Gryffindor's was the sword that Harry used in book 2, but there is another artifact of his: the sorting hat. I dunno how it would be possible for the sorting hat to have been made into a horcrux.... but several times it's pointed out that it knows when danger is approaching.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I was reading the various responses to the is Snape evil question here on Hatrack and was reminded of a quote from an interview given by JKR on the date of the HBP release to Emerson of Mugglenet and Melissa of The Leaky Cauldron two of the most popular Harry Potter fan sites on the internet. (JKR has given both of them awards on her own website.) I needed to see the direct quote again and thought I'd post it here. The following is a direct JKR quote in response to Melissa's question, "Is Snape Evil?"

Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

In essence, she refuses to answer. Her reasoning, it's a spoiler. What she has to say however is interesting. She won't admit that Snape is evil, and she won't say he isn't, but what can we infer from what she has to say about the effect it will have on Harry?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that Snape is still a "good guy". Of course, I've been with Harry all along on this, I've never really believed that Snape wasn't trying to fool everyone, so maybe I've gotten sucked in. I'm sure the fact that I had a teacher who abused her power much as Snape does has influenced me. The question is, if the Harry/Snape relationship is really just as personal now as the Harry/Voldemort, can Snape truly be working on the side of good?

I don't think so. I truly believe that Snape is evil and always has been. Dumbledore himself admits, as Harry points out, that he is capable of making mistakes and that usually they are BIG mistakes. I think Dumbledore is dead, and Snape killed him.

Does this mean that redemption is no longer possible for Snape? Absolutely not. Redemption is possible for anyone up until death. I will be interested to see what happens to Draco Malfoy. He COULDN'T bring himself to kill Dumbledore and Harry remembers that and does feel somewhat sorry for Malfoy as a result. I think that's where we'll see an unexpected ally.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

The question is, if the Harry/Snape relationship is really just as personal now as the Harry/Voldemort, can Snape truly be working on the side of good?

It's as personal for Harry. The key here is that Harry is wrong.

Keep in mind that Snape spared his life.

Dumbledore is dead, Snape killed him, and Dumbledore asked him to.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I don't agree that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. [Wall Bash]

I realize that this is a popular theory among Harry Potter fans, and it was my first thought as well. However, once I read the book for the second, third, fourth and fifth times, I began to see that the idea that Dumbledore would ask Snape to kill him doesn't fit.

Avada Kedavra is a curse that requires hatred to power it (see Goblet of Fire). It's not a curse that you can work if you don't mean it. None of the Unforgivable Curses are. That's why Harry had so much trouble with the Cruciatus Curse at the end of OoP. Despite his anger, and yes even hatred for Bellatrix Lestrange, he was unable to make the curse work for any length of time because he didn't want to cause anyone that kind of pain. If the same holds true for the other two curses (you have to want to control someone's actions to work Imperius, or kill to work Avada Kedavra) then Snape had to want to kill Dumbledore in order to make the curse work.

I think that one of the reasons so many Harry Potter fans want to believe that Dumbledore's request was for Snape to kill him because Rowling's deception was so well done. Most Potter fans took Snape's actions in saving Harry during Sorcerer's Stone at face value, and were willing to overlook the underlying nastiness that is Severus Snape because we had to believe that his actions in the first book were the real Severus Snape. I admit that there have been times throughout the books when I've thought it was possible that Snape's attitude toward many of his students was for the sake of those Slytherin students whose parents were Death Eaters. His actions in this most recent book indicate otherwise.

We have no evidence that Dumbledore knew of his promise to Narcissa Malfoy before or after he made it. Nothing indicates that he suggested to Snape that he promise to commit murder if he was asked to. The hesitation before the final promise in the Unbreakable Vow does not have to indicate a reluctance to kill Dumbledore, it can just as easily show a reluctance to give up his roll as a double agent. While Dumbledore believes him to be on the side of good he is safe, whatever his actions may seem to show, because he is a spy. If he is forced to kill Dumbledore, he loses that position. If Dumbledore was told by Snape that he had been forced into making this vow shouldn't he have warned somebody? Shouldn't other members of the Order have been told that this was a possibility? It isn't only Harry who now thinks of Snape as someone who is evil, the entire Order of the Phoenix believes it. No one was even given a hint that Dumbledore and Snape had this planned.

I believe that Dumbledore's request was not for Snape to kill him, but for Snape to be the man that Dumbledore believed him to be. For nearly sixteen years Dumbledore believed in Snape's redemption. He was unwilling to even consider that Snape might be other than what he seemed. More than once Harry brought concerns about what Snape was doing to Dumbledore, and although Dumbledore listened to what Harry said, he dismisses the statements almost out of hand. They don't mesh with his idea of who Severus Snape is, and so he is unwilling to accept them. Dumbledore was not asking for either (a) his life to be spared or (b) for Snape to kill him, he was asking for Snape to prove that his trust had been well placed.

Snape didn't.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

It isn't only Harry who now thinks of Snape as someone who is evil, the entire Order of the Phoenix believes it.

I suspect that this is extremely deliberate.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
As for the fact that Snape spared Harry's life, we have not been given any reason to believe that this is for any reaon other than what Snape himself says. Voldemort has given orders that no one is to kill Harry but himself. Voldemort might be willing to allow a change in who kills Dumbledore (he simply wants Dumbledore out of the way) but he has marked Harry as his personal kill and Snape knows he will not tolerate anyone violating that order.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I suspect that this is extremely deliberate.

So do I. Just not for the same reason you do. [Wink]
Posted by Paco_The_Insane (Member # 8263) on :
if the curse on dumbledore's hand was going to kill him as i believe, and he knew snape would have to kill him of the unbreakable vow he made, he would know snape had to leave anyway. also, this is why dumbledore let himself be killed, i think, because of that curse. Why he didnt tell anyone is obvious. no one can do occlumency. if they could, snape wouldnt have given harry lessons, someone who didnt hate him would. if they knew, voldemort would too.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
But, except in the case of Harry, who is linked to Voldemort by his scar, eye contact is necessary for legilimency to work properly. Unless Voldemort sees them personally it's unlikely he'll glean that information from anyone's mind. Don't forget, Voldemort is now so concerned about Harry's ability to see what he is doing that he is using Occlumency himself.
Posted by jd2cly60 (Member # 450) on :
I've decided to wait out the 'is Snape evil' question. Yes it clearly puts Snape in an irrefutable advantageous situation. On the other hand, Snape has been a red-herring for so long, it wouldn't surprise me if he really is as evil sounding as Rowling writes the events until he says "blocked again and again potter until you learn to close your mind!"

Plus Rowling has said that we learn alot about James past in books six and seven, which is apparently now seven. My guess is there could be more to the Lily James Snape triangle than previously suspected. Snape may have been playing Dumbledore all along or he may have been playing Voldemort all along--it's hard to tell and still somewhat open, though many convincing arguments have been made for Snape's innocence of treachery.

Imo it's no where near as clear as the Ron-Hermione relationship was in previous books.

MA: OK, big big big book six question. Is Snape evil?

JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?

ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

ES: Yes!
MA: Yes!

ES: Like certain shippers we know!

[All laugh]

JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously – Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it, whatever I say, and obviously, it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories, I love the theories.

ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

[Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree.

ES: How can someone so -

JKR: Intelligent -

ES: be so blind with regard to certain things?

JKR: Well, there is information on that to come, in seven. But I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that. In fact, I would tend to think that being very, very intelligent might create some problems and it has done for Dumbledore, because his wisdom has isolated him, and I think you can see that in the books, because where is his equal, where is his confidante, where is his partner? He has none of those things. He’s always the one who gives, he’s always the one who has the insight and has the knowledge. So I think that, while I ask the reader to accept that McGonagall is a very worthy second in command, she is not an equal. You have a slightly circuitous answer, but I can't get much closer than that.

Really how do you interpret that 'desperate hope' is it people's desperate hope that Snape is evil (haven't seen/heard too much of that) or people's desperate hope that Snape is really good and now has Voldemort's complete trust (have heard lots and lots of that). Did Dumbledore make an emotional mistake in trusting Snape?

On the other hand, I think it's very clear that Dumbledore is dead dead dead. In exactly the same way that a certain beloved character is dead dead dead halfway through Stephen King's The Stand, it's something that you want so badly to not be true that you go through a long period of disbelief because that's not how stories are supposed to go, heroes don't die, they live to be loved another day.

And I would say it's equally clear that Dumbledore has put a new protection on Harry or all of Hogwarts. After all Dumbledore faced death and chose to die to protect Harry (and Draco and Snape). It's exactly what Lily did that distinguished her death from James' death.

S: This is one of my burning questions since the third book - why did Voldemort offer Lily so many chances to live? Would he actually have let her live?

JKR: Mmhm.

ES: Why?

JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice -

ES: And James didn't.

JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.

I would agree that it's clear from Dumbledore's character he wasn't begging from mercy, he was either asking to be killed or still slightly delusional from the potion and on seeing Snape was simply asking help in purging himself of the poison, not recognizing a threat.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
The only thing I am absolutely certain of is that when it comes to Dumbledore's death scene, things aren't as they seem to be. Other than that, I'll just wait it out.

JKR did hint in her interview that there was someone else in Godric's Hollow the night that James and Lily died. My guess is that it was Snape.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
Wow - several things since I last posted.

First, I've argued against Harry/Harry's scar being the Horcrux all along.

BUT IF, ya'll and OSC are right about that then I agree with IdahoEEBoy (great idea, never occured to me) that maybe the complex spell to creat the Horcrux IS performed prior to the murder and THAT would be the only way the scar could be an accidental Horcrux.

AND IF that is the case maybe Harry himself IS the relic of Godric Gryffindor's? James Potter was from a pureblood wizarding family - maybe descended from Gryffindor himself just as Voldemort is a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin? That would be another explanation of why in Chamber of Secrets that Harry pulls the Gryffindor sword out of the sorting hat in order to defeat the basilisk. Once again Gryffindor fighting Slytherin - which is the most intense of ALL the school rivalries.

Dumbledore tells Harry on page 334 CoS that "'Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat, Harry,' said Dumbledore simply." We assumed then that by "true Gryffindor" Dumbledore was referring only to the context of their conversation where Harry tells him that the Sorting Hat was considering putting him in Slytherin house because:

"'The Sorting Hat could see Slytherin's power in me, and it ---'"

Maybe Dumbledore had a double meaning by "true Gryffindor"?

The Sorting Hat is not a relic of Godric Gryffindor but he was the one who put the spell on it to allow it to sort.

SNAPE - I think he's disgustingly mean and horrible but not "Voldemort's man and through and through". There is more to the James/Lily/Snape thing I'm sure. Probably Snape loved Lily which Dumbledore knew and THAT was why when Snape came to him with such remorse over Voldemort killing her that Dumbledore believed his "reformation". The Order only scoff at the idea that (Order p. 616):

"'And Dumbledore believed that?' said Lupin incredulously. " Dumbledore believed that Snape was sorry James was dead? Snape hated James ....'"

Harry then adds that Snape didn't think Lily was worth a damn because she was a mudblood. BUT lots of things changed from the James/Lily/Snape triangle after the scene that Harry views in the pensieve where Snape calls Lily a mudblood and Lily calls James a bully - obviously. One of the them could be Snape's love for Lily which would also explain his willingness to work against Voldemort for the Order. He hates Voldemort for killing Lily and wants him dead.

He has to hide this emotion from Voldemort and as accomplished an occlumens as Snape is - he couldn't keep it from Voldemort if he were in his presence all the time as other Death Eaters are. So he's presumably Voldemort's spy at Hogwarts and has very little physical contact with Voldemort.

Why Voldemort offered to spare Lily's life? For Snape? Did he know Snape's feelings for Lily back then? Probably not because then he'd suspect Snape hating him for Lily's death. So don't know what his motive was at that point.

Really like the distinction between James and Lily's deaths that JRK makes. Thanks for posting that.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I'm sorry, but there's no way Lily's death was the reason Snape worked for the Order. Because just after Lily died Voldemort was reduced to a mere vapour, and the fight was less itense, and I don't think Dumbledore would have believed a Death Eater that changed his mind just after his master's supposed death.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning Anna. Could you be more clear?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Anna's saying that if Snape joined Dumbledore after Lily died, he also joined Dumbledore after Voldemort died -- which would have made his conversion seem less sincere.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
Well, we have no information as to at what point Snape supposedly turned spy for the original Order of the Phoenix, but he'd NOT in the group photo from that novel that Mad Eyed Moody shows to Harry in the basement kitchen of Grimmauld Place.

In fact it does seem that it HAD to be after Voldemort's death that Snape joined the Order because the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape given was that Snape didn't know when he reported what he had overheard of the Trelawney to Dumbledore prophecy that Voldemort would go after the James Potter family. So Snape tells Voldemort the partial part of the prophecy that he overheard - at which point he's still a Death Eater - and Voldemort acts on the info by going after the Potters.

It would seem that THAT is when Snape asks Dumbledore for "forgiveness" and Dumbledore believes that Snape's sorrow about Voldemort killing the Potters is genuine.

I'm not sure how the chain of events could have occured differently unless there is a piece of information yet to be revealed in Book 7.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
GoF pensive scene: Snape changed sides "at great personal risk" and turned spy BEFORE Voldemort's fall/Lily's death. What if it happened BEFORE the prophecy?
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
If it happened before the prophecy, then why was Dumbledore's evidence of Snape's sincerity based on something that didn't happen until much later? In other words, using the GoF page 590-91 quote from Dumbledore:

"'Several Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am.'"

So then WHAT caused Dumbledore to trust Snape from that mysterious "before Lord Voldemort's downfall" up until the Potters were killed and Snape expressed his remorse that they were killed?

How do we reconcile the GoF quote with HBP page 549 where Dumbledore says:

"'Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father --'......

'..... I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned --'"

The only way to reconcile the two remarks is that there is a period of time between Snape's reporting the prophecy to Voldemort and the Potter's murder during which Voldemort thought it through and decided on Harry. Snape must have returned to the order KNOWING that Voldemort was set on the Potter family and perhaps hoping to prevent it.

If that is the case, what would explain Snape's report of the prophecy to Voldemort being the greatest regret of his life? Snape caring so deeply about James or baby Harry? Lily is the only one left in the family that Snape could care about having had a part in her death.

Perhaps Snape is the other person present at Godric Hollow on the fateful night.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I was mostly being facetious, but I really think there has to be something else to Snape's redemption other than his 'greatest regret' shpeal.

I also think that book six set up a whole other ball game in terms of shipping. Lily, the potions master, and all. Not saying that I particularly like it, I'm just starting to think that's how it's gonna play out.
Posted by KEGE (Member # 424) on :
Well, sarcasticmuppet (which btw love the image your name evokes), I'm a bit too serious about my HP and missing the facetiousness of your comment but will now read everything you write with respect to your name and try to get it. [Smile]

You are right about it being weird that Lily was such a good potions student when you think of her being in class with Snape the HBP potion prodigy. I'm sure there is much more to that too.

Once again being dense though what does "whole other ball game in terms of shipping" mean????
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
"shipping" is a term used to descripe "relationshipping" or playing the dating game at Hogwarts. For example, a LOT of people (including me, but only slightly) considered themselves Harry/Hermione 'shippers', that is, they foresaw Harry and Hermione ending up together. Many were sorely dissapointed at HBP.

(Aside: I say I was only a slight H/H shipper because unlike some people, I read the clues from GoF and OotP that pointed squarely at Ron/Hermione. I figured that was the direction Jo was gonna take it, and if I didn't like it then I could shove off. I got over it. Some people didn't. [Smile] )

I say a 'whole other ball game in terms of shipping' because before HBP, only a few crazies set out the Lily/Snape ships. Now their theories will have more ammunition.

thanks for the complement, I love my handle quite a bit. And don't worry about the subtext of my posts--usually I'm actually trying to be serious. I take HP seriously as well, it's only when a theory has been battled for the upteenth time (to me, at least [Smile] ) do I pull out the sarcasm
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Thanks Tom, that was clearer when you said it. [Smile]
Posted by Paco_The_Insane (Member # 8263) on :
i had ron and hermione shipped from the begining, because if harry and hermione were shippers, ron would become a hermit, and live in a shack in the woods. Maybe not, but he would be alone. Logically, you can see since she is the second closest girl to harry, she would be the obvious alternative. Just my opinion.

I've always been a shipper but never knew what to call it. Thanks SM!
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
*takes full credit for the vocabulary invented by dozens of HP sites before I'd ever arrived onto the scene* [Wink]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Shipping predates Harry Potter by quite a bit.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I'd thought so, but I wasn't quite sure. [Smile]
Posted by Leaf (Member # 7880) on :
I don't have the proof and quotes to back this up... It's purely opinion (p.s. - gg KEGE) but it seems really unlikely that you can just stick part of your soul in someone else, where they already have their own soul. It's like that bugs that just goes and lays it's eggs in another living bugs body, and lets it live till the eggs hatch and eat that bug.
I don't think you can just stick your soul any old place you like. Maybe into a snake is different because its not a person. See? THat's just my $.02 though, so there ya go.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I finished the book yesterday and there's so much going through my mind that I don't know what to say. However, if there's one thing that I'm certain about it is that Snape is NOT evil. The whole thing was planned to make him appear that way. In addition to all the other evidence that shows this, I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the fact that Harry was told that Snape and Dumbledore had a big fight about Snape not wanting to do something, and Dumbledore insisting... Sounds to me like Dumbledore told Snape to kill him. I'm a bit more iffy on whether or not Dumbledore is truly dead. I'm inclined to say yes, but part of me suspects that he faked it... Probably not. It's just a theory. If he is alive though, I don't believe that it has anything to do with creating his own Horcrux. Even ignoring the fact that as far as we know that would require him to have committed murder, he made it very clear that dividing one's soul is unnatural, and essentially unholy.

Anyway, time to play Devil's advocate and assume for a moment that Snape really did betray and murder Dumbledore. Some people have a problem with the fact that Dumbledore apparently pleaded for his life. However, isn't it possible that he was really pleading for Snape's sake. He may not have been afraid to die, but I could see him begging Snape not to sell his soul and turn to the Dark Side, so to speak. Maybe it wasn't so much, "Don't do this to me" pleading, as it was, "Don't do this to yourself" pleading. But as I said, I don't believe that Snape has turned. It's just food for thought.

Finally, I don't know if anyone has discussed the identity of R.A.B. (the guy who took the real Horcrux), but a friend of mine pointed out that it could be Sirius's brother, Regulus Black. According to Sirius he was a Death Eater, but he tried to back out when he realized how evil Voldemort was, and Voldemort therefore had him killed. So, it's very possible that Regulus somehow found out about the Horcruxes, decided to turn against Voldemort, and as R.A.B.'s note indicates, he knew that he would inevitably be killed for it. What's more, in "Order of the Phoenix" when Harry and the gang were cleaning the Black house, there's mention of a locket which no one could open being among the other heirlooms...

[ September 12, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Leaf (Member # 7880) on :
Uhmm.... yeah. Hi. [Wave] Thanks for posting, but right after the book was released and everyone read it in like 2 days, these topics (R.A.B. and snape) were definately discussed in full. Refer to that thread maybe (its on the other side... I'm sure you'll find it.) And you might enjoy reading that. [Smile]

Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I figured as much, but those of us who didn't rush to read the book as soon as it came out have a right to give our 2 cents too. And I think it's understandable that people won't necessarily want to read through 120+ posts just to avoid repeating ideas. At least I didn't go and start a redundant new thread about it.
Posted by Leaf (Member # 7880) on :
Haha... good job then. Kudos..

I was just saying.... you know. Not being a jerk or anything (not TRYING to anyways..)
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I found this LJ argument concerning Snape. Pretty good points: here
Posted by hiro1000 (Member # 6905) on :
I hope Harry commits suicide with all the teenage pressure. LOL that would be funny.

But still Even with a crappy ending. JKR is rich as hell. Who cares? She still has the movies. She going to be loaded.

I hope the Ender Movie will make sh'' load of money. to continue the series.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I haven't read all the theories, so I hope I'm not repeating anything, but I've always thought that the most difficult thing that Harry had to overcome was his hatred of Snape.

I can see Rowling sparing Harry the killing of Voldemort for two reasons:

1)You have to really have the ability to want to hurt someone to use a killing curse and Harry was depressed by the idea of being forced to kill Voldemort. He felt killing would make him tainted, not only in his own eyes, but in the eyes of his friends. (Though I can see him being willing to kill Snape.)

2) Dumbledore said that killing would irreparably hurt Draco. I can't see Rowling allowing the spiritual damage that was spared Draco, be visited on Harry.

*Someone other than Harry is going to be immediately responsible for Voldemort's death.
*Harry will forgive Snape
*Snape will die
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I think he's gotten over reason #1 in HBP. I almost think that Voldemort is technically not alive any more--Harry just needs to dispose of the four horcruxes outside of V's body and the one horcrux within it.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I agree, sm. I think someone else killing Voldemort would be a serious cheat on par with "and then Harry woke up and realized it was all a dream. Except the Dursleys."

My predictions:

* We will discover that Snape is not evil, that he did it all in Dumbledore's best interests. He will do something stunningly heroic in front of Harry, proving that he was good all along. Harry will suddenly adjust all his hatred and regret his prejudice intensely. Once Voldemort is dead, the wizarding world will kill Snape in retribution, over Harry's protests.

* Wormtail will defy Voldemort and save Harry's life, probably at the cost of his own. (waitaminute...did that already happen? I can't find my copy of's packed away...)

* Harry will be maimed but not killed, and he will kill Voldemort.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
sm, if anything, I think that the gap between his hatred of Snape vs. his hatred for Voldemort has increased. Harry now blames Snape as much as he blames Voldemort for his parent's death and Harry directly blames Snape for killing Dumbledore.

jeniwren, I agree about Wormtail. I think that scenario was set-up in GoF.

Regarding Voldemort's death; I've never looked at the relationship between Harry and Voldemort as the centerpiece of the book, so having Harry be a bit player in Voldemort's death wouldn't be let-down to me.
Posted by EndertheJedi (Member # 7889) on :
I have not decided whetther snape is evil IMO or not but I am willing to wait till seven to be sure., there is still a lot of evidence to support both sides. but I definitely think that Hrry will Kill Voldemort because of the prophecy. I dont think he will kill him in an expected way thoughI.E. maybe the alck opf horcruxes will cause voldy to die or amy be Harry will some how trick him into causing his own death.
one of the thing s i have always believed about the snaoe being evil debate is that it is very possible that snape himself di not know which sode hes on the whole time. think about his character hates Harry and enjoys the dark arts but he also seems to want dumbledore to trust and respect him and if you noticee d in HBP he spoke to many of the death eatersd especially wurmtail with barely vailed contempt .it is possible that snape was at a morale dimena in his life and the unbreakable vow he amde to kill dumbledore was the last strasw that pushedd him over to whatever side hes on now .
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Originally posted by LadyDove:

I can see Rowling sparing Harry the killing of Voldemort for two reasons:

1)You have to really have the ability to want to hurt someone to use a killing curse and Harry was depressed by the idea of being forced to kill Voldemort. He felt killing would make him tainted, not only in his own eyes, but in the eyes of his friends. (Though I can see him being willing to kill Snape.)

2) Dumbledore said that killing would irreparably hurt Draco. I can't see Rowling allowing the spiritual damage that was spared Draco, be visited on Harry.

*Someone other than Harry is going to be immediately responsible for Voldemort's death.
*Harry will forgive Snape
*Snape will die [/QB]

I think that Harry will kill Voldemort (though probably with help). I mean, the guy murdered Harry's parents and is pretty much responsible for every bad thing that has happened in his life. I can see Harry mustering up the will to kill him. If not for revenge, than in order to protect others. As for the spiritual damage, Harry killing Voldemort and Draco killing Dumbledore are two very different things. Dumbledore was innocent and defenseless. Draco was threatening to murder him in cold blood. Voldemort, however, shouldn't even be alive in the first place, and is evil beyond the point od redemption. Letting him live means that more people will die by his hand in the future. I don't think that even the Ministry is stupid enough to believe that they can hold him in Azkaban.

With regards to Wormtail betraying Voldemort, all I have to say is, hasn't anyone noticed the similarities between Wormtail, and Wormtongue from The Lord of the Rings? Given that, I think that his eventual betrayal of his master is almost as high on my list of certainties as Snape being good. I mean, Wormtail isn't really evil, he's just terrified of Voldemort. But Peter Pettigrew was in Gryffindor, wasn't he? So there most be some courage and loyalty to his old friends in there somewhere. I think it'll emerge in the end.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Dumbledore was innocent and defenseless. Draco was threatening to murder him in cold blood.
But Draco was being blackmailed into murdering Dumbledore, so I don't think the circumstances are that different.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I have some interesting theories that I am suprised no one has thought of yet so im going to go ahead and put them out their and see what you guys think.

1. Everyone likes to say that it was lily's love for Harry that saved him. Well how? How did her love save Harri. What if she made Harry the Horocrux in hopes that it would stop Voldemorth from killing Harry, which it did. Either she somehow made it so that her own death did it or she took the casted of part of Voldemoth's soul from the killing of her husband and cast it into Harry.

2. As to Voldemorth Possesing Harry we can take a page from OSC's books. What if like Ender and EnderPeter Harry and Voldemorth both have peices of Voldemoths soul. WHat if after splitting himself seven times the part of his soul thats in his physical body doesnt have to be the dominant one. What if Voldemorth decided to move his coniousness to Harry and make that the dominant part of his soul, kind off like when Ender's Auia (dont know if I spelled that right) went into EnderPeter. THats why Voldemorth said if you want to kill me you have to kill Harry, not in those words, but that was the jist.

3. We found out with the Horocruxes that both murder and death can envoke powerfull magic. What if Sirius had to kill Dumbledore as a kind of sacrifice for a spell of untold power. What if Sirius, caring for Dumbledore, did not want to make the sacrifice and that is why they were arguing in the woods and also why Dumbledore pleaded with him. It wasnt to not kill dumbledore but to sacrifice him. As to what that spell is we can only guess. Some nuclear explosion spell that turns Hogwarts into ground zero if voldemorth shows up perhaps? [Big Grin]

Those are my thoughts.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
1 sounds highly unlikely. The only way to make a horcrux is to kill someone yourself. Not to say Lily couldn't have killed anyone, though...

2 sounds a bit more likely, but OotP showed that Voldemort possessing Harry causes both of them significant pain, because V can't deal with the love Harry has. You're on the right track, I think. [Smile]

3 sounds even more plausable, but it sounds too...simple, I guess. If this were really the case Dumbledore might have been more careful for all his talk of him being more expendable than Harry. This is assuming that Snape (and no one else) would have to kill Dumbledore in order for this spell to take effect.

#3 made me think of something: what if Snape (for good/evil/whatever), made a horcrux after killing Dumbledore? I'm almost completely convinced that Harry will kill (good/evil/whatever) Snape in a fit of vengeful rage before his whole story is revealed, and this might possibly prevent that. If this happens, I would probably lean more toward Snape being evil, or at least just turned a deaf ear to anything Dumbly ever taught him.

Theories lead to more different theories, and more fun guessing games. Keep it up. [Smile]
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Well, I don't think that Harry will kill Snape. I'm totally convinced that Snape is good, and I don't think that Rowling would have Harry kill anyone who didn't deserve it, even if he thought they did. He'll probably try to kill Snape the next time he sees him, but someone (not Snape, since he'd never believe him) will step in and tell him the truth.

Anyway, let's try running with the idea of Lily making a Horcrux. If she did, maybe it was to hold a piece of her own soul, not Voldemort's. Maybe murder is the evil method of making a Horcrux. What if through love and sacrifice Lily was able to store a part of her own soul in Harry when she died, and that's what's always been protecting him? How many times have people remarked that Harry has his mother's eyes? And don't they say that eyes are a window into the soul? I'm just throwing this idea out there as food for thought, though. I don't think it's all that likely. I don't know why Lily would even know about Horcruxes.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
Much as I would love the idea that part of Lily's soul survived and she is therefore not dead, one thing Rowling has stated ad nauseum to her fans in numerous interviews is that James and Lily Potter are dead, dead, dead.

Unfortunately, once people are dead (Voldemort never was of course) they cannot come back to life.

It's a shame, I wish Harry could have his mother back.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Maybe Harry will die and when he goes to heaven. His mother, father, uncle, dumbledore, etc will be there waiting for him.

Wow Harry is like walking death to everyone he cares about. Im suprised Ron and Hermoine arent dead yet. Not for a lack of trying...
Posted by Rose the ____ (Member # 7791) on :
Originally posted by Zarex:
We know that voldemort has more than one horcrux. If I knew that there was only one person in the world capable of killing me, but to kill him I would have to die, I might be a bit nervous. But if I had a few extra lives handy, I'd kill them in a heart beat.

So he is sacrificing one horcrux, in order to ensure the survival of the others, and more importantly; himself.

really? in a heartbeat? Mr. Zarex, are you in the habit of committing cold blooded murders? [Evil]
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
It's a long shot, but I'd like to see Neville kill Voldemort.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Rose, if he has a few horcruxes sitting around, do you need to ask the question?

And Irregardless, your SN makes me want to claw my own eyes out. But welcome to Hatrack regardless. [Big Grin]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Irregardless, that would be the only way I could live with Harry not doing it. If Neville does it, I won't feel like it's a cheat.

The process of making a horcrux is considered worse than the use of Avada Kedavera. It's so awful and morally heinous that it's unspeakable to describe how it's done, even in books in the Restricted Section of the Library. It is the darkest of the Dark Arts. I would be surprised if Lily Potter had known the concept of horcruxes even existed, let alone how to do it, let alone actually do it to her own child. Dumbledore has repeatedly said that the magic that saved Harry's life was one of the most ancient and powerful in existance, and that it was of a nature utterly foreign to Voldemort. Love. I don't think that is a trite sentiment. Rowling is a mother, and was when she first conceived Harry Potter's story. She knows the true, real life magic of a mother's love for her child, and I believe that is what she draws on to describe how Harry's life was saved. The birth of my firstborn was easily the most amazing moment of my life. Nothing compares. In Harry's world, I'd be a Muggle. Imagine then, that in a world of wizards, the magic of bonded love is powerful enough for muggles to feel it.

It makes total sense to me that this would be powerful enough to thwart the Killing Curse. I think it must be potentially the greatest, strongest magic possible. And that this alone saved Harry's life.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Regardless of how you may feel on the issue, and irregardless of any other source, I trust to Merriam - Webster when I say irregardless is a word. And sorry for derailing the post, please go on discussing HP. I quite enjoy it.
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
Regardless of how you may feel on the issue, and irregardless of any other source, I trust to Merriam - Webster when I say irregardless is a word. And sorry for derailing the post, please go on discussing HP. I quite enjoy it.

How about this? :-)
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Firstly, this

And lastly ...


The End.

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